DH's Potential for Mass Viewership Outside of MTB Participants

bizutch
Posts
1467
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Fletcher, NC US
Fantasy
10/12/2023 9:03am
Snfoilhat wrote:
I wonder why any organizer would invest in building up a national or continental race series and aim to include a level of riding just a...

I wonder why any organizer would invest in building up a national or continental race series and aim to include a level of riding just a step below the top 60 or top 30 who would be fighting to qualify in international elite DH at a different track on any given weekend. Why aim for a level of rider rewards, media coverage, fan engagement, etc. just a step below, for the purpose of feeding the international organizer your best talent. There are people giving examples of sports where this works, but there are counterexamples that could be worth looking at.

American outdoor motocross doesn't position itself as a feeder to international MXGP. It seems like it's always a storyline when one of MXGP's best comes over to American MX and SX, like they graduated up.

Recall the international sprinter who had just won a bunch of gold in his sport in a true international comp, saying something about how the NBA shouldn't call itself a world competitive org and the NBA title holder aren't 'world' champs, and that guy was roundly criticized. The NBA might be national/continental, but they are the top compared to any international org.

So if a group of investors were mulling over building a mtb series that could cost nearly as much as UCI elite racing to operate, and stood to make less revenues than UCI racing because it was designed not to overshadow the international series, why would they do that? Is it a volume thing, cheaper tickets but huge numbers of fans following their home region? Someone must have the executive summary of the business plan that would make this work on a napkin somewhere Smile

I was there for NORBA Nationals. Traveled to as many as possible for so many years thanks to my job, friends and sponsors.
Just acting as an advocate, not challenging the top dogs really.  But NORBA Nationals were the pinnacle of DH.

The things that made it work were the stories. Palmer crossing all barriers & becoming "The Greatest Athlete on Earth" during a generational cross over of the US Postal dominance, Lance's cancer fight & the meshing of pop culture X Games. 

The real underlying strength of that era's stories wasn't the athletes though.  It was the marketing powerhouses like TailWind Sports drawing national brands to those stories.  World Cup DH overtook NORBA Nationals after the crash of '08 b/c FreeCaster found a way to MARKET the product.  Only they didn't have NORBA Nationals to film. 

Was FreeCaster European based?  Can't remember if that was why it was Euro-Centric.

Regardless, the guys working behind the scenes on producing the DHSE videos all work with other big motorsports clientelle during their day jobs.  The sport growing will take someone similar to them or from that form of filming braintrust to seek out a way to produce a product in the US that is it's own free standing story telling production.

Euro World Cups are great.  But US resorts are sitting here waiting to be approached by a hungry marketing guru with filming & production capabilities to tell the stories of an entire continent's race scene.  

If we want DH to "grow", it has to be from a person/group who can bring in high value sponsors to a US National Race Series that pays athletes, put outside the industry sponsors on video & creates new stories of a burgeoning revival.  

Big problem though...Discovery/Warner Brothers is out there trying to lock up ALL streaming/video/production rights to all outdoor content so they can name their price for access.

3
bizutch
Posts
1467
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Fletcher, NC US
Fantasy
10/12/2023 9:11am

One other thing...the irony of Bruni saying we have to go to 30 racers to get a "dream scenario team" of a "TOYOTA/Specialized".

Every team at NORBA Nationals had that "dream scenario".
Specialized/Mtn Dew
SOBE/Cannondale
Volvo/Cannondale
Trek/VW

The Ford Motors women's team
Chevy Trucks sponsored the entire series,
Sven & Needles drove around squeezed into Honda Ridgelines.
Kicker audio had a massive demo truck
Park Tools supported every National with a Tool truck

Anyone remember the sport needing to be F1 or cut  down to 30 then?
Hell NO!!!

 

5
One Ghost
Posts
162
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Tacoma, WA US
10/12/2023 9:32am
hogfly wrote:
I've been thinking a lot on this as well, especially after listening to Bruni's interview with Jackie. I agree that the lack of head2head racing is...

I've been thinking a lot on this as well, especially after listening to Bruni's interview with Jackie. I agree that the lack of head2head racing is one of the major distinguishers from F1. This affects the sport in a variety of ways. It's also one of the things that athletes and fans list as a reason for loving the sport: you're not competing against each other, you're competing against yourself and the track. So the vibes and community are positive (countless MTB racers talk about the toxicity of the BMX scene in their interviews as a reason for falling in love with MTB instead of BMX as they got older). But that drama and team principal feuding and animosity between drivers is one of the things that people love about F1. But we don't (and hopefully will never) have that in MTB.

 

Another is the inability to watch all the action from a good viewing point as an on-site spectator. You're faced with the choice of climbing up the track and seeing very limited parts of people's runs (with zero real understanding of what's happening unless you have cellular data and can watch live timing or the broadcast) or going to the finish and watching on the big screen. I'm not saying that attending a DHI race in person is a crappy experience, but it's not the same spectacle and viewing experience as F1 can provide... and the format itself prevents it from replicating it.  

 

On top of that, I just don't see the mass appeal. I was at a NICA race on Saturday during the MSA race. I was on my phone following live timing while at the race. I tried to strike up multiple conversations with other folks at the event about the DH race, and no one even really knew anything was happening. And this is among a group of mountain bikers. Who knows, though, maybe if Tom PIdcock says it's his favorite thing to watch.. the XC crowd will get more into it?

jonkranked wrote:
DH will never be F1 unless some billionaires decide to bankroll it.  So don't hold your breath.  And even then I'm sure the UCI, etc would...

DH will never be F1 unless some billionaires decide to bankroll it.  So don't hold your breath.  And even then I'm sure the UCI, etc would find a way to not pay the riders any better.

I honestly think UCI would never allow DH to be mainstream. They are clearly all in. for male road cycling and that's it. The TdF is as good as it gets for them it seems and it used to be broadcast live and on tape delay in the US on NBC Sports back in the pre-cable and internet days. 

As you said, it would take a major company (ahem, Discovery) to purchase it outright, not just broadcast rights, to make it more mainstream. I still have hopes for the Disco/ESO series. In a few ways, it's better but in many ways, it isn't. I attribute that to first-year growth. I still didn't buy a subscription to watch it, though I may make my work do that for next season. 

2
One Ghost
Posts
162
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Tacoma, WA US
10/12/2023 9:35am
bizutch wrote:
One other thing...the irony of Bruni saying we have to go to 30 racers to get a "dream scenario team" of a "TOYOTA/Specialized". Every team at...

One other thing...the irony of Bruni saying we have to go to 30 racers to get a "dream scenario team" of a "TOYOTA/Specialized".

Every team at NORBA Nationals had that "dream scenario".
Specialized/Mtn Dew
SOBE/Cannondale
Volvo/Cannondale
Trek/VW

The Ford Motors women's team
Chevy Trucks sponsored the entire series,
Sven & Needles drove around squeezed into Honda Ridgelines.
Kicker audio had a massive demo truck
Park Tools supported every National with a Tool truck

Anyone remember the sport needing to be F1 or cut  down to 30 then?
Hell NO!!!

 

The old NORBA days (RIP) were as close to supercross as possible for MTB. Maybe even as close to NASCAR as we will ever be in terms of coverage. That being said, a WC pit is just like a supercross one with the big rigs all over. The money is there, albeit slowly drying up, at least for the racers/support teams.

3
10/12/2023 9:47am

The question as to whether we need to grow MTB viewership of elite level events is a good one, and I think I would answer "yes."

Honestly I dont feel like coverage of elite competition is super safe (WBD/ESA holding essentially all the keys to the kingdom). One way or another coverage will continue, but its a business, and I think its a business that is really struggling in many ways. I want more people to get into it so that I can also keep following it, because my fear is that is the only way to make the business viable. Also, I do want to retain or improve access for young riders and bolster development programs and that also take huge investment, which is probably also just more people watching and enjoying mtb. 

griz
Posts
19
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
San Rafael, CA US
Fantasy
10/13/2023 4:45pm
bizutch wrote:
One other thing...the irony of Bruni saying we have to go to 30 racers to get a "dream scenario team" of a "TOYOTA/Specialized". Every team at...

One other thing...the irony of Bruni saying we have to go to 30 racers to get a "dream scenario team" of a "TOYOTA/Specialized".

Every team at NORBA Nationals had that "dream scenario".
Specialized/Mtn Dew
SOBE/Cannondale
Volvo/Cannondale
Trek/VW

The Ford Motors women's team
Chevy Trucks sponsored the entire series,
Sven & Needles drove around squeezed into Honda Ridgelines.
Kicker audio had a massive demo truck
Park Tools supported every National with a Tool truck

Anyone remember the sport needing to be F1 or cut  down to 30 then?
Hell NO!!!

 

As much as I like Bruni, as a racer…that’s all he is; a DH MTB racer! I’m not trying to offend anyone here, but many pro athletes have no education, or real life experience outside of racing. For most people, professional racing is a short opportunity/window…it doesn’t pan out for most financially. I was around AMA Supercross and nationals in the 90’s; my brother was a pro, and had a few factory rides…it didn’t work out for him. He and his buddies sure were fun to hang with, but they didn’t know shit about anything but getting chicks!

2
1
bizutch
Posts
1467
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Fletcher, NC US
Fantasy
10/13/2023 7:16pm
griz wrote:
As much as I like Bruni, as a racer…that’s all he is; a DH MTB racer! I’m not trying to offend anyone here, but many pro...

As much as I like Bruni, as a racer…that’s all he is; a DH MTB racer! I’m not trying to offend anyone here, but many pro athletes have no education, or real life experience outside of racing. For most people, professional racing is a short opportunity/window…it doesn’t pan out for most financially. I was around AMA Supercross and nationals in the 90’s; my brother was a pro, and had a few factory rides…it didn’t work out for him. He and his buddies sure were fun to hang with, but they didn’t know shit about anything but getting chicks!

Had several of my riding/racing buds all go pro, make mains, get small and/or brief contracts. I agree 100%
.
Except Todd Bennick, Dax's dad. He was on the grind from day one. 

Cheezario
Posts
11
Joined
7/2/2011
Location
Linz AT
10/14/2023 1:55am

How's it looking for DH to get into the Olympics? I know there's been talk for years, and ok venues are a challenge, blah blah blah. But c'mon, Javelin is in the Olympics and who is watching that live stream? Breakdancing out, DH in! Extra exposure, maybe some additional national cycling investment in courses, outside sponsors.

The TV format for DH is so weird, there's no connection during the broadcast to who the racer on course actually is. Instead I have to listen to Josh "maaaaaate" Carlsen explaining what a tyre is. How about each rider talking about their rivals, difficult sections of trail, overall standings? I honestly miss the Dirt/Parkin bros pre-race and race day recaps, they were great! 

2
10/20/2023 4:22am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2023 5:37am
Cheezario wrote:
How's it looking for DH to get into the Olympics? I know there's been talk for years, and ok venues are a challenge, blah blah blah...

How's it looking for DH to get into the Olympics? I know there's been talk for years, and ok venues are a challenge, blah blah blah. But c'mon, Javelin is in the Olympics and who is watching that live stream? Breakdancing out, DH in! Extra exposure, maybe some additional national cycling investment in courses, outside sponsors.

The TV format for DH is so weird, there's no connection during the broadcast to who the racer on course actually is. Instead I have to listen to Josh "maaaaaate" Carlsen explaining what a tyre is. How about each rider talking about their rivals, difficult sections of trail, overall standings? I honestly miss the Dirt/Parkin bros pre-race and race day recaps, they were great! 

I miss those days too, but they aren't ever coming back. Dirt TV was fully yolo and of its time, we had no rules!

2
1
Mr.Nally
Posts
670
Joined
1/2/2021
Location
AS
10/22/2023 6:11am
One Ghost wrote:
I honestly think UCI would never allow DH to be mainstream. They are clearly all in. for male road cycling and that's it. The TdF is...

I honestly think UCI would never allow DH to be mainstream. They are clearly all in. for male road cycling and that's it. The TdF is as good as it gets for them it seems and it used to be broadcast live and on tape delay in the US on NBC Sports back in the pre-cable and internet days. 

As you said, it would take a major company (ahem, Discovery) to purchase it outright, not just broadcast rights, to make it more mainstream. I still have hopes for the Disco/ESO series. In a few ways, it's better but in many ways, it isn't. I attribute that to first-year growth. I still didn't buy a subscription to watch it, though I may make my work do that for next season. 

Odd take. The UCI have next to nothing to do with the Tour de France, the tdf is run by the ASO (Amaury Sport Organization). UCI are involved in the rules capacity and often butt heads with ASO.

As for your second point. ESO/Disco/WBDS or whatever it is do own all of the rights to the World Cup MTB series for the next seven years, not just the broadcast rights. They own it all now, organization, media, TV, sporting etc... The UCI are, it seems, more involved still than they are in the tdf , But that is probably because of the transition from UCI organizing things to ESO doing it now?

funktekk
Posts
98
Joined
6/13/2023
Location
Shawnee, KS US
10/22/2023 8:48pm

I don’t see DH racing attaining mass viewership without increasing its viewership in the US. I don’t see US viewership increasing without more races in the US. 
 

 

2
austin-NC
Posts
104
Joined
12/22/2022
Location
Lincolnton , NC US
10/23/2023 4:36am

So what exactly did Discovery buy? I thought they only bought the broadcasting rights, if thats the case why were they able to change the racing format completely? 

If they would run it like Feld/AMA Supercross does I think this would be much more successful. Discovery is in charge of the broadcast / promotion / overall event schedule and layout. UCI is only in charge of the rules and the race format.

1
All-MTN-MTB
Posts
126
Joined
3/1/2023
Location
Boulder, CO US
10/23/2023 8:18am
funktekk wrote:
I don’t see DH racing attaining mass viewership without increasing its viewership in the US. I don’t see US viewership increasing without more races in the...

I don’t see DH racing attaining mass viewership without increasing its viewership in the US. I don’t see US viewership increasing without more races in the US. 
 

 

While I agree that the US is a large market, there are sports such as soccer or cricket that have little to no viewership in the US and are some of the biggest sports in the world.

1
All-MTN-MTB
Posts
126
Joined
3/1/2023
Location
Boulder, CO US
10/23/2023 8:21am
austin-NC wrote:
So what exactly did Discovery buy? I thought they only bought the broadcasting rights, if thats the case why were they able to change the racing...

So what exactly did Discovery buy? I thought they only bought the broadcasting rights, if thats the case why were they able to change the racing format completely? 

If they would run it like Feld/AMA Supercross does I think this would be much more successful. Discovery is in charge of the broadcast / promotion / overall event schedule and layout. UCI is only in charge of the rules and the race format.

I'm pretty sure that Discovery did buy/is now in charge of the broadcast/promotion/overall event schedule.

10/23/2023 8:26am
austin-NC wrote:
So what exactly did Discovery buy? I thought they only bought the broadcasting rights, if thats the case why were they able to change the racing...

So what exactly did Discovery buy? I thought they only bought the broadcasting rights, if thats the case why were they able to change the racing format completely? 

If they would run it like Feld/AMA Supercross does I think this would be much more successful. Discovery is in charge of the broadcast / promotion / overall event schedule and layout. UCI is only in charge of the rules and the race format.

ESO does the organizing and partnered with Discovery to broadcast the races.

1
All-MTN-MTB
Posts
126
Joined
3/1/2023
Location
Boulder, CO US
10/23/2023 8:29am
austin-NC wrote:
So what exactly did Discovery buy? I thought they only bought the broadcasting rights, if thats the case why were they able to change the racing...

So what exactly did Discovery buy? I thought they only bought the broadcasting rights, if thats the case why were they able to change the racing format completely? 

If they would run it like Feld/AMA Supercross does I think this would be much more successful. Discovery is in charge of the broadcast / promotion / overall event schedule and layout. UCI is only in charge of the rules and the race format.

BGoldstone wrote:

ESO does the organizing and partnered with Discovery to broadcast the races.

Wait so are ESO and Discovery owned by the same parent organization? That was my initial understanding, but now I'm just confused.

funktekk
Posts
98
Joined
6/13/2023
Location
Shawnee, KS US
10/23/2023 9:31am
funktekk wrote:
I don’t see DH racing attaining mass viewership without increasing its viewership in the US. I don’t see US viewership increasing without more races in the...

I don’t see DH racing attaining mass viewership without increasing its viewership in the US. I don’t see US viewership increasing without more races in the US. 
 

 

While I agree that the US is a large market, there are sports such as soccer or cricket that have little to no viewership in the...

While I agree that the US is a large market, there are sports such as soccer or cricket that have little to no viewership in the US and are some of the biggest sports in the world.

Agreed, however in cases of soccer and cricket there isn’t a significant participation or history in the US where as mountain biking is huge and growing rapidly in the US. And yet hardly any of the riders that I have met are aware of UCI World Cup racing. It seems like a really easy market to capture with the right package. And if they were able to successfully grab the attention of the majority of mtb riders in the US the momentum would propel it into the mainstream.

2
1
veefour
Posts
855
Joined
7/31/2016
Location
Cinderford GB
10/23/2023 11:53am Edited Date/Time 10/23/2023 1:13pm
funktekk wrote:
Agreed, however in cases of soccer and cricket there isn’t a significant participation or history in the US where as mountain biking is huge and growing...

Agreed, however in cases of soccer and cricket there isn’t a significant participation or history in the US where as mountain biking is huge and growing rapidly in the US. And yet hardly any of the riders that I have met are aware of UCI World Cup racing. It seems like a really easy market to capture with the right package. And if they were able to successfully grab the attention of the majority of mtb riders in the US the momentum would propel it into the mainstream.

Obviously I'm talking about the UK and not the US, but in my experience the majority of people who ride aren't interested and don't watch racing. I'd say out of all the mountain bikers I know it's lower (probably a lot lower) than 10% in terms of viewership. You could argue that we had a pretty good package with RB and it was free, but very few people that I knew bothered watching, despite me banging on about how good it was.

I don't think cyclists from other disciplines are very interested either, I know lots of roadies that watch all the grand tours, the classics and track events, but I don't know any that watch DH.

 

I'd love to see the viewing figures over the last 10 years, whether the racing being shown on a platform that other cyclists frequent has changed viewing figures in any significant way this year and whether I'm way off in my thinking or not.

3
10/23/2023 12:17pm

I honestly hope dh doesn’t become and Olympic sport. With all the bitching about numbers, track length, ‘viewership’ it will only make the tracks less raw and more accessible. 
Before xc was an Olympic event the races were longer and more technical. Now everything is made for tv. 

3
1
funktekk
Posts
98
Joined
6/13/2023
Location
Shawnee, KS US
10/23/2023 5:38pm
veefour wrote:
Obviously I'm talking about the UK and not the US, but in my experience the majority of people who ride aren't interested and don't watch racing...

Obviously I'm talking about the UK and not the US, but in my experience the majority of people who ride aren't interested and don't watch racing. I'd say out of all the mountain bikers I know it's lower (probably a lot lower) than 10% in terms of viewership. You could argue that we had a pretty good package with RB and it was free, but very few people that I knew bothered watching, despite me banging on about how good it was.

I don't think cyclists from other disciplines are very interested either, I know lots of roadies that watch all the grand tours, the classics and track events, but I don't know any that watch DH.

 

I'd love to see the viewing figures over the last 10 years, whether the racing being shown on a platform that other cyclists frequent has changed viewing figures in any significant way this year and whether I'm way off in my thinking or not.

From the outside looking in it seemed like all British MTBers are keen to DH. 
 

The only times I come across folks who are up to speed on World Cup racing is at local races.

The analogies to road racing are interesting. In mtb terms our TDF would be Rampage. I don’t know many people that watch it live but the highlights get out even people who don’t ride.

It would be nice to see some of our favorite venues be treated like the classics. Ft Bill is always the 3rd week in April… St Anne is always the 2nd week in September.

1
Mr.Nally
Posts
670
Joined
1/2/2021
Location
AS
10/24/2023 12:16am

Wait so are ESO and Discovery owned by the same parent organization? That was my initial understanding, but now I'm just confused.

Yes ESO merged with Warner Bros Discovery Sport earlier this year 

1
owl-x
Posts
926
Joined
3/23/2016
Location
Shell Beach, CA US
10/24/2023 9:59am

Imagine how bad you'd have to be at making TV to fuck up the gift that is DH racing right now. It's remarkable! 

1
casey79
Posts
377
Joined
3/21/2010
Location
Sydney, NSW AU
Fantasy
10/24/2023 10:00am

From 2023, ESO Sports along with Warner Bros. Discovery and Discovery Sport Events are delivering the UCI Mountain Bike World Cup.

ESO is a part of Discovery, Inc and a partner of Play Sports Group.

 

Post a reply to: DH's Potential for Mass Viewership Outside of MTB Participants

The Latest