MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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mamath7
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101
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Location
FR
10/9/2023 7:15am
Primoz wrote:

And the ATC of the Zeb at 190 mm should pretty close to what the Boxxer at 200 mm would be.

ZEB 190 is 27,5 only if my memory is still fine

7
Uncle Cliffy
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Medford, OR US
10/9/2023 7:31am
mamath7 wrote:

ZEB 190 is 27,5 only if my memory is still fine

Better check your memory banks….

7
nskerb
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341
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Location
Kelso, WA US
10/9/2023 7:56am
Noeserd wrote:
A question looking at the forks flex there Since i started riding motorcycles i appreciate the usd forks even more, Why upside down forks aren't widely...

A question looking at the forks flex there

Since i started riding motorcycles i appreciate the usd forks even more,

Why upside down forks aren't widely used since like 2021 where weight became a less of a priority?  we used to have an excuse because there was significant weight differences but just checked and fox 40 is 2850g and a dorado is 2970 both for 29 wheels.

 

I’ve always thought the same thing. People say that you get weird torsional flexy noodle feelings with them. I don’t know how much I do or don’t believe that, but a lot of people say that. I guess the majority have agreed that fore/aft flex issues that standard mtb forks have is less of a negative than the torsional flex that a usd fork has. 
 

I thought a beefier hub to fork lug interface would be a fairly easy solution but Mr. Camp (sram dude) said it’s pretty tough to make happen. 

1
WhoKnows
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10
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9/19/2023
Location
Los Gatos, CA US
10/9/2023 8:46am
Democho wrote:

More detailed pics of Finn's bike provided by Spec. 

 

 

 Ok then, now show us Loic's shock. 

Think I'll be waiting longer for that

Yea we won't ever see that. 

1
haen
Posts
105
Joined
12/3/2020
Location
CA US
10/9/2023 8:53am
Noeserd wrote:
A question looking at the forks flex there Since i started riding motorcycles i appreciate the usd forks even more, Why upside down forks aren't widely...

A question looking at the forks flex there

Since i started riding motorcycles i appreciate the usd forks even more,

Why upside down forks aren't widely used since like 2021 where weight became a less of a priority?  we used to have an excuse because there was significant weight differences but just checked and fox 40 is 2850g and a dorado is 2970 both for 29 wheels.

 

nskerb wrote:
I’ve always thought the same thing. People say that you get weird torsional flexy noodle feelings with them. I don’t know how much I do or...

I’ve always thought the same thing. People say that you get weird torsional flexy noodle feelings with them. I don’t know how much I do or don’t believe that, but a lot of people say that. I guess the majority have agreed that fore/aft flex issues that standard mtb forks have is less of a negative than the torsional flex that a usd fork has. 
 

I thought a beefier hub to fork lug interface would be a fairly easy solution but Mr. Camp (sram dude) said it’s pretty tough to make happen. 

Sram has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I wouldn't take a manufacturer's word as the final authority of anything. They are promoting their products above all else. 

4
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nskerb
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Kelso, WA US
10/9/2023 9:10am
haen wrote:
Sram has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I wouldn't take a manufacturer's word as the final authority of anything. They are promoting their...

Sram has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I wouldn't take a manufacturer's word as the final authority of anything. They are promoting their products above all else. 

That is not even remotely true. 
 

look at 2010 sram and 2023 sram. They have drastically changed the status quo regarding drivetrains first by 1x and then setting the benchmark for electric components. Among other things. 

10
1
matmattmatthew
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359
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Fresh Prince of Bel Air, MD US
10/9/2023 9:35am

Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub and despite the entire uppers/steerer tube being made out of carbon it was actually slightly heavier than the Sid at the time.  If Sram was able to get the weight significantly lower than the Sid I think they would have been more popular.  

2
fluider
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37
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1/7/2021
Location
SK
10/9/2023 9:35am

What must be loudly said about SRAM is they easily provide technical specifications documents regarding their products from which one can deduce standard specs like Boost while Shimano hardly specs any technical drawings.

8
10/9/2023 9:53am
Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub...

Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub and despite the entire uppers/steerer tube being made out of carbon it was actually slightly heavier than the Sid at the time.  If Sram was able to get the weight significantly lower than the Sid I think they would have been more popular.  

wasn't the hub one of the first in boost 15x110 size with torque caps to negate the "noodly" feeling?

5
Robstyle
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Invercargill NZ
10/9/2023 10:59am

I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅

It's wonderful in a straight line though, esp under braking. 

2
monarchmason
Posts
289
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Location
Nevada City, CA US
10/9/2023 11:19am
Robstyle wrote:
I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅 It's wonderful...

I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅

It's wonderful in a straight line though, esp under braking. 

What year is the fork?

Also I wonder why USD forks do not do what Cannondale does with the flattening of the stanchion tubes inside of the… uppers/housing? Does Cannondale have a patent on that? Because people say the Ocho fork does not flex like this and it has 1 tube. 

Robstyle
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Location
Invercargill NZ
10/9/2023 11:33am
What year is the fork? Also I wonder why USD forks do not do what Cannondale does with the flattening of the stanchion tubes inside of...

What year is the fork?

Also I wonder why USD forks do not do what Cannondale does with the flattening of the stanchion tubes inside of the… uppers/housing? Does Cannondale have a patent on that? Because people say the Ocho fork does not flex like this and it has 1 tube. 

It's a '23 Dorado 37 pro.

Fork is wonderful, just has its nuances. 

1
Zuestman
Posts
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10/27/2014
Location
Seattle, WA US
10/9/2023 11:34am
Robstyle wrote:
I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅 It's wonderful...

I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅

It's wonderful in a straight line though, esp under braking. 

What year is the fork? Also I wonder why USD forks do not do what Cannondale does with the flattening of the stanchion tubes inside of...

What year is the fork?

Also I wonder why USD forks do not do what Cannondale does with the flattening of the stanchion tubes inside of the… uppers/housing? Does Cannondale have a patent on that? Because people say the Ocho fork does not flex like this and it has 1 tube. 

They don't do it because it is massively expensive.  and complicated.  different races for each side of the needle bearings. a regular lefty needs 8.... so that is 16, plus the bearings etc, and machine time.  fork would be unsellable at the price.

3
haen
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105
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CA US
10/9/2023 12:04pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2023 12:05pm
haen wrote:
Sram has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I wouldn't take a manufacturer's word as the final authority of anything. They are promoting their...

Sram has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I wouldn't take a manufacturer's word as the final authority of anything. They are promoting their products above all else. 

nskerb wrote:
That is not even remotely true.    look at 2010 sram and 2023 sram. They have drastically changed the status quo regarding drivetrains first by 1x...

That is not even remotely true. 
 

look at 2010 sram and 2023 sram. They have drastically changed the status quo regarding drivetrains first by 1x and then setting the benchmark for electric components. Among other things. 

Manufacturer promote their products and highlight their benefits vs competitors. You're not going to hear Sram saying USD forks are better unless they have a USD fork on offer. This is marketing 101. 

3
5
Primoz
Posts
4552
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8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/9/2023 12:09pm
Primoz wrote:
To everybody commenting on Zeb and Enduro, my thoughts exactly. Anywho, pretty sure it would be anodized, not painted for the aluminium part? More importantly... The...

To everybody commenting on Zeb and Enduro, my thoughts exactly.

Anywho, pretty sure it would be anodized, not painted for the aluminium part?

More importantly... The seatstays are black. No aluminium parts on them. Is this an off-the-shelf part? Can it be a Stumpjumper EVO seatstay?

AgrAde wrote:

They're using the Enduro seat stays. Or at least the same mold, god knows if it's the same carbon layup.

Good point, the Enduro has a clevis rocker and a solid seatstay while the stumpy is the other way around - clevis on the seatstay. The DH bike indeed does not have a clevis.

1
Primoz
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4552
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8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/9/2023 12:14pm
Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub...

Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub and despite the entire uppers/steerer tube being made out of carbon it was actually slightly heavier than the Sid at the time.  If Sram was able to get the weight significantly lower than the Sid I think they would have been more popular.  

Considering modern forks I guess the RS1 would function with a normal hub, but would be a bit more flexy. But that torque cap interface found it's way into most other RS forks anyway and I've been running torque caps on my Lyrik previously and on the Zeb now since 2019. Getting different endcaps is not much of a problem.

1
juliusk
Posts
116
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1/21/2021
Location
Clausthal-Zellerfeld DE
10/9/2023 12:20pm
Robstyle wrote:
I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅 It's wonderful...

I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅

It's wonderful in a straight line though, esp under braking. 

Me too, honestly I can’t say I feel the torsional stiffness in a good or bad way. 
But the fore-aft stiffness is hugely noticeable especially when landing something big

3
Dave_Camp
Posts
460
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8/25/2009
Location
CO US
10/9/2023 12:47pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2023 12:49pm
Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub...

Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub and despite the entire uppers/steerer tube being made out of carbon it was actually slightly heavier than the Sid at the time.  If Sram was able to get the weight significantly lower than the Sid I think they would have been more popular.  

Primoz wrote:
Considering modern forks I guess the RS1 would function with a normal hub, but would be a bit more flexy. But that torque cap interface found...

Considering modern forks I guess the RS1 would function with a normal hub, but would be a bit more flexy. But that torque cap interface found it's way into most other RS forks anyway and I've been running torque caps on my Lyrik previously and on the Zeb now since 2019. Getting different endcaps is not much of a problem.

I rode one as well- I remember watching the wheel dive left when you pulled the front brake. made it squirrelly under braking. 
 

they had a very special hub to try and add stiffness.  Everyone hated that custom hub.  it was wider and had huge knurled end caps that were rigidly connected to try and get some stiffness back.  Would be even flexier without the special hub- probably unsafe to ride…
 

looked super cool though 
 

 

4
matmattmatthew
Posts
359
Joined
6/14/2014
Location
Fresh Prince of Bel Air, MD US
10/9/2023 12:48pm
Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub...

Sram made the inverted RS-1 years ago, I actually owned one.  It was a great fork, but was a little niche, it required a proprietary hub and despite the entire uppers/steerer tube being made out of carbon it was actually slightly heavier than the Sid at the time.  If Sram was able to get the weight significantly lower than the Sid I think they would have been more popular.  

Primoz wrote:
Considering modern forks I guess the RS1 would function with a normal hub, but would be a bit more flexy. But that torque cap interface found...

Considering modern forks I guess the RS1 would function with a normal hub, but would be a bit more flexy. But that torque cap interface found it's way into most other RS forks anyway and I've been running torque caps on my Lyrik previously and on the Zeb now since 2019. Getting different endcaps is not much of a problem.

Not exactly.  The proprietary hub was built a little differently, instead of standard end caps it had what they called the “torque tube” which was a solid axle that spanned the full length between the fork dropouts, it was also much bigger than a standard 15mm axle, I think it was 27mm.  The ends of the torque tube necked down to accept a normal 15mm Maxle but all the strength was in the torque, the maxle was just there to hold everything in place.  The ends of the torque tube were also knurled, the fork dropouts had the matching knurl pattern in them so the hub “keyed” into the dropouts.  

3
Primoz
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8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/9/2023 12:50pm

Ah, yeah, sorry, it wasn't the standard torque cap, it was also knurled!

Front wheel twisting off to the side sounds scary though Smile

Wonderful insight from behind the curtain as always.

1
Noeserd
Posts
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Location
TR
10/9/2023 1:13pm

But then why motorcycles doesn't suffer the same rigidity problems?

It's not like they have massive axles or big contact points

for example this is my bikes axle 

KTM RC390 axlesliders R1

 

2
1
monarchmason
Posts
289
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA US
10/9/2023 1:14pm
Robstyle wrote:
I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅 It's wonderful...

I have a dorado, she's a wet noodle torsionally alright. Sometimes the bars don't point where the wheel is out of a corner 😅

It's wonderful in a straight line though, esp under braking. 

What year is the fork? Also I wonder why USD forks do not do what Cannondale does with the flattening of the stanchion tubes inside of...

What year is the fork?

Also I wonder why USD forks do not do what Cannondale does with the flattening of the stanchion tubes inside of the… uppers/housing? Does Cannondale have a patent on that? Because people say the Ocho fork does not flex like this and it has 1 tube. 

Zuestman wrote:
They don't do it because it is massively expensive.  and complicated.  different races for each side of the needle bearings. a regular lefty needs 8.... so...

They don't do it because it is massively expensive.  and complicated.  different races for each side of the needle bearings. a regular lefty needs 8.... so that is 16, plus the bearings etc, and machine time.  fork would be unsellable at the price.

I see. Not doubting your reason, but do you have a guesstimate how much that would cost? Maybe they dont do that, but youd think they would have some sort of work out like that to prevent torsion. 

matmattmatthew
Posts
359
Joined
6/14/2014
Location
Fresh Prince of Bel Air, MD US
10/9/2023 1:58pm

Let’s just wait for the Push fork to be released and find out how they worked out rigidity.  

15
mamath7
Posts
101
Joined
6/17/2014
Location
FR
10/9/2023 1:59pm
mamath7 wrote:

ZEB 190 is 27,5 only if my memory is still fine

Better check your memory banks….

I checked, you're right, I missed it

1
Dave_Camp
Posts
460
Joined
8/25/2009
Location
CO US
10/9/2023 2:12pm
Noeserd wrote:
But then why motorcycles doesn't suffer the same rigidity problems? It's not like they have massive axles or big contact points for example this is my...

But then why motorcycles doesn't suffer the same rigidity problems?

It's not like they have massive axles or big contact points

for example this is my bikes axle 

KTM RC390 axlesliders R1

 

I see 2 clamping bolts on each dropout that rs1 didn’t have.

steel axle? Diameter?  Torsional stiffness is squared or cubed based off radius I think.  So even a small bump in diameter is big for torsion.

triple clamp? Stiffness of those?

lots of small differences make a big overall impact.

 

6
10/9/2023 3:22pm

Let’s just wait for the Push fork to be released and find out how they worked out rigidity.  

Might not have to wait to much longer, this was posted today from Darren.IMG 7109.jpeg?VersionId=B6IvvqRWmn01hA0og0xXcXdCt

12
dolface
Posts
1671
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
CA US
10/9/2023 3:56pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2023 3:56pm
Kapolczer wrote:
Might not have to wait to much longer, this was posted today from Darren.

Might not have to wait to much longer, this was posted today from Darren.IMG 7109.jpeg?VersionId=B6IvvqRWmn01hA0og0xXcXdCt

4
Losifer
Posts
407
Joined
9/12/2017
Location
Sandia Park, NM US
10/9/2023 4:05pm
Kapolczer wrote:
Might not have to wait to much longer, this was posted today from Darren.

Might not have to wait to much longer, this was posted today from Darren.IMG 7109.jpeg?VersionId=B6IvvqRWmn01hA0og0xXcXdCt

dolface wrote:

Wow! Anyone know how big that initial allotment was?

1
Noeserd
Posts
183
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10/21/2020
Location
TR
10/9/2023 4:13pm
Dave_Camp wrote:
I see 2 clamping bolts on each dropout that rs1 didn’t have. steel axle? Diameter?  Torsional stiffness is squared or cubed based off radius I think...

I see 2 clamping bolts on each dropout that rs1 didn’t have.

steel axle? Diameter?  Torsional stiffness is squared or cubed based off radius I think.  So even a small bump in diameter is big for torsion.

triple clamp? Stiffness of those?

lots of small differences make a big overall impact.

 

The axle is 15mm steel

 

PHO BIKE DET 390-duke-in20-rotw21-brakes SALL AEPI V1 1

 

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