MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Evil96
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804
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Portogruaro, VE IT
8/31/2023 11:42am
Evil96 wrote:
That looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==  

IMG 9748.png?VersionId=iEvYThat looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==

 

shreda wrote:

Hunting Holly? Wink

dolface wrote:

I was expecting it before the tacky chan

so much so I thought they changed name; but this screenshot is from a bike racing these days so I guess it’s still coming 

8/31/2023 12:00pm
krabo83 wrote:

+ looks like a freakin e-bike with that massive bb & latch.

I suspect the strategy of many of the big brands (this is especially egregious for Trek) is to fatten up the downtubes of their "natural" bikes so that their ebikes are harder to distinguish from the normal model. 

10
3
8/31/2023 12:06pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2023 12:07pm
Evil96 wrote:
That looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==  

IMG 9748.png?VersionId=iEvYThat looks like the new other tyre from Schwalbe yet to be released, Hunting Holly https://www.instagram.com/p/CwmjOKnq7JM/?igshid=MWZjMTM2ODFkZg==

 

That tread pattern looks identical to the tacky chan, atleast from a distance. Same block layout and pattern and looks to be the same side knobs too. Maybe it’s “old” stock from before they finalized the name??

5
TEAMROBOT
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Los Angeles, CA US
8/31/2023 12:14pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2023 12:16pm
krabo83 wrote:

+ looks like a freakin e-bike with that massive bb & latch.

I suspect the strategy of many of the big brands (this is especially egregious for Trek) is to fatten up the downtubes of their "natural" bikes...

I suspect the strategy of many of the big brands (this is especially egregious for Trek) is to fatten up the downtubes of their "natural" bikes so that their ebikes are harder to distinguish from the normal model. 

I suspect you're right, but that's a shame from a structural standpoint. Oversized tubes need to have thin walls to stay reasonably light, which means they're more vulnerable to things like rock strikes and impacts, even if they're technically strong enough to handle the loads of normal riding. I was a huge fan of the gen.1 carbon V10 because the tubes were small in diamter and the walls were super thick, so the front triangle was basically invincible. Plus a smaller diameter tube cross-section  is going to have more engineered flex in it (or "compliance" in marketing speak), which I think most companies are looking for anyway. I wonder if there's a different and more reasonable explanation for the inflatable downtubes we're seeing or if it really is a tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

7
AndehM
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El Granada, CA US
8/31/2023 12:18pm

Big downtubes allow storage too.  That's far more plausible to me than the tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

13
ahleic09
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7/25/2018
Location
Bend, OR US
8/31/2023 12:55pm
AndehM wrote:

Big downtubes allow storage too.  That's far more plausible to me than the tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

I’d guess that more than appearance companies are growing down tubes to minimize design and manufacturing redundancy. If a company can run the same/similar tubing, hardware, and etc they will save on stock, time, and testing. Most companies would also probably look at aesthetic similaritybetween ebikes and regular bikes as a positive, especially in the enduro category. 

2
8/31/2023 4:20pm
krabo83 wrote:

+ looks like a freakin e-bike with that massive bb & latch.

I suspect the strategy of many of the big brands (this is especially egregious for Trek) is to fatten up the downtubes of their "natural" bikes...

I suspect the strategy of many of the big brands (this is especially egregious for Trek) is to fatten up the downtubes of their "natural" bikes so that their ebikes are harder to distinguish from the normal model. 

TEAMROBOT wrote:
I suspect you're right, but that's a shame from a structural standpoint. Oversized tubes need to have thin walls to stay reasonably light, which means they're...

I suspect you're right, but that's a shame from a structural standpoint. Oversized tubes need to have thin walls to stay reasonably light, which means they're more vulnerable to things like rock strikes and impacts, even if they're technically strong enough to handle the loads of normal riding. I was a huge fan of the gen.1 carbon V10 because the tubes were small in diamter and the walls were super thick, so the front triangle was basically invincible. Plus a smaller diameter tube cross-section  is going to have more engineered flex in it (or "compliance" in marketing speak), which I think most companies are looking for anyway. I wonder if there's a different and more reasonable explanation for the inflatable downtubes we're seeing or if it really is a tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

I don't think its to disguise e-bikes, Scott in particular just love having ultra light bikes, look at the Spark (obviously needs to be ultra light) their design is just carrying over, large tubes = light.

As AndehM also points out, it enables downtube storage.

The issue is rock strikes, and with thin walls you get a single error during layup and its an instant cracked frame. It would tolerable if the frames were made in the US or Europe, where quality control is much higher, but we all know the amount of duds being produced in Asia, it just makes it more likely customers will get unlucky and crack yet another frame. 

3
8/31/2023 11:32pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2023 11:36pm

In my experience it’s a lot less about where something is made and mostly about cost/demand.  If bike companies were pushing Taiwan to meet quality control at the price point they wanted vs meeting quotas at the price point they wanted then Taiwan would adjust its processes.  Simply the market wants a LOT of bikes at an “affordable” price.  The good brands just warranty what they have to and the bad ones just pass the flops onto the customer.

if you buy an American made fender guitar vs a Mexican made fender guitar the quality control is very very similar on most models.  Because the American fender chooses to produce a ton of guitars at an affordable price and has to make sacrifices to meet volume.

3
Karabuka
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Location
SI
9/1/2023 12:11am
krabo83 wrote:

+ looks like a freakin e-bike with that massive bb & latch.

Its actually reverse psychology, make a bike to blur the line between normal bikes and ebikes, so when I was testing an eLumen and posted a picture to group chat, friends didnt even realize it was an ebike as it looked just like a normal scott bike. You can say thats pretty genius Tongue

1
5
9/1/2023 1:51am

Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH version. Pedals like wet clay...

 

Screenshot 20230901-104731~2

Primoz
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SI
9/1/2023 2:03am

What I would like to see is an enduro casing Michelin but with the racing line rubber... 

9
nicompr
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Location
Villes FR
9/1/2023 2:05am

Anyone has any info about the Marin DH/FR proto ? I want a bikeparks bike and this one could be great 

nicompr
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Villes FR
9/1/2023 2:17am
Primoz wrote:

What I would like to see is an enduro casing Michelin but with the racing line rubber... 

And without the weight of the DH. 

Primoz
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9/1/2023 2:31am
Primoz wrote:

What I would like to see is an enduro casing Michelin but with the racing line rubber... 

nicompr wrote:

And without the weight of the DH. 

Therein lies the point. 

1
Jakub_G
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352
Joined
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Location
SK
9/1/2023 4:24am
Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH...

Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH version. Pedals like wet clay...

 

Screenshot 20230901-104731~2

It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to test these before they were released to the public, and he didn't mind pedalling around on them front and rear.

2
1
Primoz
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SI
9/1/2023 4:45am

Not everybody is Sam Hill... 

1
Stewyeww
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Location
CA
9/1/2023 4:50am
Jakub_G wrote:
It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to...

It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to test these before they were released to the public, and he didn't mind pedalling around on them front and rear.

If sam hill said he didn't mind, it's probably because they are paying him ....

Sol.Cob
Posts
29
Joined
1/13/2021
Location
GB
9/1/2023 6:13am
Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH...

Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH version. Pedals like wet clay...

 

Screenshot 20230901-104731~2

Jakub_G wrote:
It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to...

It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to test these before they were released to the public, and he didn't mind pedalling around on them front and rear.

Elliot Heap currently running it as a rear with Wild Enduro in the front so guess not.

Onawalk
Posts
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Location
CA
9/1/2023 6:30am
I suspect the strategy of many of the big brands (this is especially egregious for Trek) is to fatten up the downtubes of their "natural" bikes...

I suspect the strategy of many of the big brands (this is especially egregious for Trek) is to fatten up the downtubes of their "natural" bikes so that their ebikes are harder to distinguish from the normal model. 

TEAMROBOT wrote:
I suspect you're right, but that's a shame from a structural standpoint. Oversized tubes need to have thin walls to stay reasonably light, which means they're...

I suspect you're right, but that's a shame from a structural standpoint. Oversized tubes need to have thin walls to stay reasonably light, which means they're more vulnerable to things like rock strikes and impacts, even if they're technically strong enough to handle the loads of normal riding. I was a huge fan of the gen.1 carbon V10 because the tubes were small in diamter and the walls were super thick, so the front triangle was basically invincible. Plus a smaller diameter tube cross-section  is going to have more engineered flex in it (or "compliance" in marketing speak), which I think most companies are looking for anyway. I wonder if there's a different and more reasonable explanation for the inflatable downtubes we're seeing or if it really is a tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

I don't think its to disguise e-bikes, Scott in particular just love having ultra light bikes, look at the Spark (obviously needs to be ultra light)...

I don't think its to disguise e-bikes, Scott in particular just love having ultra light bikes, look at the Spark (obviously needs to be ultra light) their design is just carrying over, large tubes = light.

As AndehM also points out, it enables downtube storage.

The issue is rock strikes, and with thin walls you get a single error during layup and its an instant cracked frame. It would tolerable if the frames were made in the US or Europe, where quality control is much higher, but we all know the amount of duds being produced in Asia, it just makes it more likely customers will get unlucky and crack yet another frame. 

You believe QC is better in the US than it is in Asia?

sheesh

6
9/1/2023 6:54am
AndehM wrote:

Big downtubes allow storage too.  That's far more plausible to me than the tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

Absolutely.  The downtube on my new 5010 is prob bigger than on my EXe.  Pretty hard to imagine SC engaging in the silliness people are theorizing.  The execution of the in frame storage is magnificent, btw.  First frame with that feature and it’s pretty awesome.

4
9/1/2023 7:04am
AndehM wrote:

Big downtubes allow storage too.  That's far more plausible to me than the tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

Absolutely.  The downtube on my new 5010 is prob bigger than on my EXe.  Pretty hard to imagine SC engaging in the silliness people are theorizing...

Absolutely.  The downtube on my new 5010 is prob bigger than on my EXe.  Pretty hard to imagine SC engaging in the silliness people are theorizing.  The execution of the in frame storage is magnificent, btw.  First frame with that feature and it’s pretty awesome.

Both of these can be true at the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive concepts.  Making the downtube larger for storage also makes the pedal bike look more similar to an e-bike, creating less of a visual difference between the two.  It's a win-win for the bike brand.

12
9/1/2023 7:30am
Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH...

Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH version. Pedals like wet clay...

 

Screenshot 20230901-104731~2

Jakub_G wrote:
It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to...

It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to test these before they were released to the public, and he didn't mind pedalling around on them front and rear.

Seems to me you are not Sam Hill and you haven't pedaled those tires (the dh version with wire bead). Also for front tires pedaling performance matters, especially for racers. And their fitness level is probably way above ours...

1
yahmon
Posts
55
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9/18/2018
Location
Burlington, VT US
9/1/2023 8:08am
AndehM wrote:

Big downtubes allow storage too.  That's far more plausible to me than the tinfoil hat ebike conspiracy.

Absolutely.  The downtube on my new 5010 is prob bigger than on my EXe.  Pretty hard to imagine SC engaging in the silliness people are theorizing...

Absolutely.  The downtube on my new 5010 is prob bigger than on my EXe.  Pretty hard to imagine SC engaging in the silliness people are theorizing.  The execution of the in frame storage is magnificent, btw.  First frame with that feature and it’s pretty awesome.

You mean it's hard to imagine that the brand that just released an e-hybrid marketed towards urban commuters is trying to make e-bikes seem more ubiquitous and stand out less?

I think that's pretty easy to imagine. Don't let their 'mountain bike core' image fool you.

2
4
funktekk
Posts
98
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6/13/2023
Location
Shawnee, KS US
9/1/2023 9:24am
yahmon wrote:
You mean it's hard to imagine that the brand that just released an e-hybrid marketed towards urban commuters is trying to make e-bikes seem more ubiquitous...

You mean it's hard to imagine that the brand that just released an e-hybrid marketed towards urban commuters is trying to make e-bikes seem more ubiquitous and stand out less?

I think that's pretty easy to imagine. Don't let their 'mountain bike core' image fool you.

From what I am seeing ebikes are becoming more of the rule than the exception on the trails. I would venture that companies will very soon be having strat meetings on how to distinguish and market non-ebikes. 

3
Curly
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1/19/2022
Location
PNW, OR US
9/1/2023 9:29am

Not really innovation.... 

But Guerrilla Gravity is closing up shop.....no more bikes

9
mtbman99
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115
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8/30/2016
Location
CA
9/1/2023 9:33am

That sucks for GG 

on the big down tube discussion it could also be easier to manufacture and if you can utilize a similar mold for you e-bike it probably takes less design resources between frames.

4
9/1/2023 9:37am
Curly wrote:

Not really innovation.... 

But Guerrilla Gravity is closing up shop.....no more bikes

Where are you getting that from? That's very disappointing to hear.

2
Jakub_G
Posts
352
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
9/1/2023 9:57am Edited Date/Time 9/1/2023 10:35am
Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH...

Does anyone know if the DH22 will come as Enduro version soon? Front tire of Nukeproof Racer Kelan Grant....can hardly imagine they are racing the DH version. Pedals like wet clay...

 

Screenshot 20230901-104731~2

Jakub_G wrote:
It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to...

It s a front tire, so how it pedals is not that relevant, but if I remember, Sam hill was one of the first racers to test these before they were released to the public, and he didn't mind pedalling around on them front and rear.

Seems to me you are not Sam Hill and you haven't pedaled those tires (the dh version with wire bead). Also for front tires pedaling performance...

Seems to me you are not Sam Hill and you haven't pedaled those tires (the dh version with wire bead). Also for front tires pedaling performance matters, especially for racers. And their fitness level is probably way above ours...

Dude, first of all, you posted picture of pro rider, who is A) Sam hill's teammate B ) in condition good enough to pedal on that tire with cushcore while having a flat. Second of all, get a clue. I'm not the one comparing myself to pro racers nor am I modeling my components choice after them. You obviously are and are making very silly conclusions as a result. If racing bikes was your job, I' m very sure you would pedal around the most sticky and durable tire you can find and adjust your training to allow that not the other way round.

3
saskskier
Posts
326
Joined
11/4/2017
Location
Calgary, AB CA
9/1/2023 10:19am
Curly wrote:

Not really innovation.... 

But Guerrilla Gravity is closing up shop.....no more bikes

Where are you getting that from? That's very disappointing to hear.

I've heard the same thing from some guys in Squamish that ride with Yoann.

4
matmattmatthew
Posts
359
Joined
6/14/2014
Location
Fresh Prince of Bel Air, MD US
9/1/2023 10:21am

Wait a second...You're telling me that Scott isn't an e-bike?  I guess that Tin-foil hat marketing strategy worked on me...

2
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