MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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krabo83
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AT
8/17/2023 8:08am
Shreddy wrote:
Very affordable shredder. https://www.mtb-news.de/news/rose-scrub-erster-test/
krabo83 wrote:

alu gt fury… hope it‘s more durable 😅

to those who downvoted me, ask roger viera Wink

 

IMG 9164 0

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Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 8:10am

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

22
BigNubbs
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Mount Shasta, CA US
8/17/2023 8:18am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.

What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?

Want to try that one day for sure on MTB.. Seems some companies have tried just not the big playas!

 

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Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 8:21am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

BigNubbs wrote:
Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB. What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm? Want to try that one day for...

Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.

What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?

Want to try that one day for sure on MTB.. Seems some companies have tried just not the big playas!

 

Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing…

I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can figure out something that works. 

1
8/17/2023 8:47am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 8:50am
thegromit wrote:

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

🤷🏾‍♀️

roller bearings seem to work fine in bicycle linkages?

3
8/17/2023 8:58am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

Not to mention they explode in a relatively small amount of time. Can't count how many I had disintegrate on my 2016 Patrol Monarch+. Bought a bunch from Real World Cycles, definitely were not worth it. Maybe different frame applications would change my opinion on them?

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8/17/2023 9:00am

285d1e4836521a39ed23049979aff873.png?VersionId=wWPF5YV E

FWIW, The new Vivid model specific offering refers to the current Slash as (2021-2023) where most other models are 20XX+) Screenshot 2023-08-17 at 9.56.53 AM

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nskerb
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Kelso, WA US
8/17/2023 9:14am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

thegromit wrote:

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?

8
Dave_Camp
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CO US
8/17/2023 9:27am
nskerb wrote:

The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?

Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine.  But that is oiled by the premix and pretty clean. Also high speed lower loading than suspension bits.

3
Primoz
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8/17/2023 9:45am Edited Date/Time 8/17/2023 9:48am
Primoz wrote:
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware...

"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."

Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.

Dave_Camp wrote:

They are similar to the fox ones but thread together and have some sealing/crush ptfe bands in there to hopefully prevent creaking.

Praised be jesus. Just torquing down on the eyelet wouldn't work?

Any ideas on availability? I'm just now waiting for a bearing variant SD as only standard eyelet variants are available (or press in bearing cups), but this would make it a viable solution in the standard eyelet.

Regarding needle bearings, how do you reload them? Roller bearings usually run axially preloaded to take out the slack. Long time running applications also use a soft reload (spring) to keep it constant through the lifetime and temperature range. 

8/17/2023 10:08am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

thegromit wrote:

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

nskerb wrote:

The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?

Regrease is pretty easy, replace isnt too bad if you have a vice. They last about as long as a 2t piston

kcy4130
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MT US
8/17/2023 10:25am

Needle bearings are generally only used where a roller or ball bearing wouldn't fit. They are not preloaded or very lightly (usually) also generally not sold as a cartridge, so no inner race (tho hardened steel sleeves for them are sold). Early turner dhr's had needle bearings on the linkages driving the shock, and they rode on unhardend and unpolished steel... As you'd expect they did not do very well in this application. Regardless, I loved both dhr's I had, they were quite good for the time. 

I'm speculating here, but perhaps needle bearings are generally more susceptible to contaminant damage because they're long. A ball bearing will often even usually push contaminant particles off to the side rather than crush it or be crushed. A needle bearings doesn't, and crush them. Also the smaller the diameter of the rolling element is the higher the surface pressure at interface.

3
jsray
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Gilbert, AZ US
Fantasy
8/17/2023 10:27am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

BigNubbs wrote:
Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB. What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm? Want to try that one day for...

Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.

What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?

Want to try that one day for sure on MTB.. Seems some companies have tried just not the big playas!

 

Dave_Camp wrote:
Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing… I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can...

Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing…

I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can figure out something that works. 

Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike. 

2
Jakub_G
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SK
8/17/2023 10:57am
jsray wrote:
Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on...

Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike. 

Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing in my shock is working just as well as the day I installed it some 3years ago with one grease top up in that time frame being the only maintenance. Terrible durability for sure lol.

1
2
slowroller
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Location
Durango, CO US
8/17/2023 11:37am
Primoz wrote:
Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the...

Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the wipers would have to hold the pressure. Unlikely, but the catch is that sealing the stanchion into the crown (and sealing the crown-steerer interface) would be a bit of a challenge, that's why I imagined a connection all the way across could be made. Thus also the lubricating oil.

Searching for how Fox made the 38 spring (they use a cartridge instead of relying on the stanchions as the spring housing) I came across Luft Fusion, which I think makes a lot of sense - a chamber within a chamber layout adding another tube for the piston to seal against with the tube sealing against the stanchion and creating an outer sleeve. The change in volume can easily be tuned to achieve the desired compression ratios both on the positive and negative side, the smaller diameter of the piston requires a bit higher pressure, there is some more weight in the system, but overall it might just work with the likes of a 180 mm Zeb and the progressiveness it's experiencing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124593036229

This is ducking stupid.  

1
8/17/2023 11:40am
jsray wrote:
Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on...

Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike. 

Jakub_G wrote:
Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing...

Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing in my shock is working just as well as the day I installed it some 3years ago with one grease top up in that time frame being the only maintenance. Terrible durability for sure lol.

Must be frame specific then, as I weigh 155lb fully kitted, and think I blew through 3-4 needle bearings in about a year on that 2016 Patrol when I had it.

1
Primoz
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8/17/2023 11:46am

Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.

For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).

3
ERGue
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Location
Sedro Woolley, WA US
8/17/2023 12:31pm
nskerb wrote:

The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?

Dave_Camp wrote:
Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine.  But that is oiled by the premix and pretty...

Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine.  But that is oiled by the premix and pretty clean. Also high speed lower loading than suspension bits.

What about about Bearings like Moto’s and I think Push uses? Seems like the best solution to me. Allows for misalignment, side loading and of course axial rotation around the mounting bolt. 

Jakub_G
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SK
8/17/2023 12:50pm
ERGue wrote:
What about about Bearings like Moto’s and I think Push uses? Seems like the best solution to me. Allows for misalignment, side loading and of course...

What about about Bearings like Moto’s and I think Push uses? Seems like the best solution to me. Allows for misalignment, side loading and of course axial rotation around the mounting bolt. 

Spherical bearings were discussed above as well, yes they are superior to every other option in terms of performance, but they don't last too long because they are typically not sealed that well. Argument that you cannot fit them because there isn't enough space is complete bullshit, price and weight, those are real reason, 16mm OD is size used on those shock that use them, vs 15mm standard eyelet. 

1
1
8/17/2023 12:55pm
Dave_Camp wrote:
Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing… I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can...

Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing…

I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can figure out something that works. 

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=102336

Been around since Ohlins first partnered with Specialized and discovered the joys of shock yoke extensions (esp. the ones that Specialized used to use that literally bolted the shock to the yoke)

1
THIRTYone
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14
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4/8/2010
Location
Camas, WA US
8/17/2023 1:44pm

Can’t say I’ve seen this bike before, so I’m guessing it’s something new from fezzari? That’s nik nestoroff on the bike. New dh bike? Or long travel bike with a 40? 3759DF23-4C3E-47BD-B6C0-D571D323F049

10
8/17/2023 2:18pm
Primoz wrote:
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the...

Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.

For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).

Lefty had needle beerings for that reason.

image-20230817141802-1

3
jeff231
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San Clemente, CA US
Fantasy
8/17/2023 2:21pm

285d1e4836521a39ed23049979aff873.png?VersionId=wWPF5YV E

Poleczechy wrote:
FWIW, The new Vivid model specific offering refers to the current Slash as (2021-2023) where most other models are 20XX+) 

FWIW, The new Vivid model specific offering refers to the current Slash as (2021-2023) where most other models are 20XX+) Screenshot 2023-08-17 at 9.56.53 AM

Any indication if the model-specific shocks available aftermarket or are these just ones that will be coming on stock builds?

8/17/2023 2:45pm
jeff231 wrote:

Any indication if the model-specific shocks available aftermarket or are these just ones that will be coming on stock builds?

Some shops are already listing the model specific shocks.

https://thelostco.com/collections/rockshox-vivid

1
peecee
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427
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Location
Brisbane AU
Fantasy
8/17/2023 3:20pm
krabo83 wrote:
to those who downvoted me, ask roger viera ;)  

to those who downvoted me, ask roger viera Wink

 

IMG 9164 0

What happened here was. it a huck to flat or something or did the new GT literally implode ? "There I was just riding along" 

8/17/2023 3:25pm
jeff231 wrote:

Any indication if the model-specific shocks available aftermarket or are these just ones that will be coming on stock builds?

chriskief wrote:

Some shops are already listing the model specific shocks.

https://thelostco.com/collections/rockshox-vivid

Interresting. +$30 for the luxury of a specific tune.

ShapeThings
Posts
121
Joined
8/19/2018
Location
Oakland, CA US
8/17/2023 3:47pm Edited Date/Time 8/17/2023 3:51pm
krabo83 wrote:
to those who downvoted me, ask roger viera ;)  

to those who downvoted me, ask roger viera Wink

 

IMG 9164 0

peecee wrote:

What happened here was. it a huck to flat or something or did the new GT literally implode ? "There I was just riding along" 

It was JRA during a practice run at Val Di Sole if I remember correctly. Granted, a world cup racer's JRA is beyond my mortal abilities. Frame was probably damaged at one point. Forgot details. 

1
8/17/2023 4:05pm
Primoz wrote:
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the...

Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.

For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).

A big factor would be frame tolerances on cheaper bikes too, the minute you dont have nice alingment and that needle bearing has to take some axial load you would start to get issues.

Push's spherical bearings would be the best solution no?

1
8/17/2023 4:06pm
Primoz wrote:
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware...

"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."

Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.

The service manual has the how-to installation, might tell you something. Yay to another single use speciality tool!

image-20230817160635-1

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