MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Onawalk
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8/8/2022 5:54pm
Primoz wrote:
Correct, wheelbase lengthening no, chainstay length yes. The wheelbase going through the travel (equal percentage front and rear) shortens because, overall, rear axle path is forwards...
Correct, wheelbase lengthening no, chainstay length yes. The wheelbase going through the travel (equal percentage front and rear) shortens because, overall, rear axle path is forwards and the front wheel travels backwards. You'd need an IMMENSELY rearwards axle path to keep the wheelbase the same through the travel, but then you are shifting the balance forwards (your CoG is moving relative to the wheels).

Front and rear travels doing different things throws a wrench into everything (keep the front extended, squat the rear and the wheelbase just might extend quite a bit actually).

And yes, millimeters, actually quite small Smile
Hear me out, I’m just spit balling here.
The chainstay can’t actually grow, in terms of length, without the wheelbase growing as well, right. I get the fork compressing, and moving back, so effectively shortening the wheelbase, but I thought the idea behind the added stability of HP bikes was a lengthening of the wheelbase (relative to its static, or sagged position)
Is it possible, that the RC isn’t lengthening, it’s just moving further up from the bb while cycling through the suspension (so I guess lengthening if it were to be on the same plane, but they’re not, so the axle path is moving up and forward)

Apologies to everyone for possibly hijacking the thread. I think it’s still slightly relevant, as we are discussing a prototype Spesh frame
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boozed
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674
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6/11/2019
Location
AU
8/8/2022 11:21pm
Primoz wrote:
Correct, wheelbase lengthening no, chainstay length yes. The wheelbase going through the travel (equal percentage front and rear) shortens because, overall, rear axle path is forwards...
Correct, wheelbase lengthening no, chainstay length yes. The wheelbase going through the travel (equal percentage front and rear) shortens because, overall, rear axle path is forwards and the front wheel travels backwards. You'd need an IMMENSELY rearwards axle path to keep the wheelbase the same through the travel, but then you are shifting the balance forwards (your CoG is moving relative to the wheels).

Front and rear travels doing different things throws a wrench into everything (keep the front extended, squat the rear and the wheelbase just might extend quite a bit actually).

And yes, millimeters, actually quite small Smile
Onawalk wrote:
Hear me out, I’m just spit balling here. The chainstay can’t actually grow, in terms of length, without the wheelbase growing as well, right. I get...
Hear me out, I’m just spit balling here.
The chainstay can’t actually grow, in terms of length, without the wheelbase growing as well, right. I get the fork compressing, and moving back, so effectively shortening the wheelbase, but I thought the idea behind the added stability of HP bikes was a lengthening of the wheelbase (relative to its static, or sagged position)
Is it possible, that the RC isn’t lengthening, it’s just moving further up from the bb while cycling through the suspension (so I guess lengthening if it were to be on the same plane, but they’re not, so the axle path is moving up and forward)

Apologies to everyone for possibly hijacking the thread. I think it’s still slightly relevant, as we are discussing a prototype Spesh frame
As I understand it we're measuring the distance between the BB and the rear axle in two ways here:

1) The "chainstay length" is the straight line distance from the BB to the rear axle, which increases throughout travel on most modern designs, because chain growth is positive wherever anti-squat is positive (or vice-versa). VPP is one exception in its implementation where in some cases, the anti-squat goes negative quite close to the end of travel and the chain contracts slightly.

2) The rear centre is effectively the horizontal component of the "chainstay length". If you draw a line on the ground between the BB and the rear axle, it will lengthen initially and then shorten once the axle has (approximately, but for most Horst/FSR designs as near as makes no difference) passed above the height of the pivot and the horizontal component of its motion changes direction.

Hopefully I haven't made any boneheaded mistakes in these explanations...
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1
krabo83
Posts
722
Joined
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Location
AT
8/9/2022 8:07am Edited Date/Time 8/9/2022 8:09am
Primoz wrote:
Correct, wheelbase lengthening no, chainstay length yes. The wheelbase going through the travel (equal percentage front and rear) shortens because, overall, rear axle path is forwards...
Correct, wheelbase lengthening no, chainstay length yes. The wheelbase going through the travel (equal percentage front and rear) shortens because, overall, rear axle path is forwards and the front wheel travels backwards. You'd need an IMMENSELY rearwards axle path to keep the wheelbase the same through the travel, but then you are shifting the balance forwards (your CoG is moving relative to the wheels).

Front and rear travels doing different things throws a wrench into everything (keep the front extended, squat the rear and the wheelbase just might extend quite a bit actually).

And yes, millimeters, actually quite small Smile
Onawalk wrote:
Hear me out, I’m just spit balling here. The chainstay can’t actually grow, in terms of length, without the wheelbase growing as well, right. I get...
Hear me out, I’m just spit balling here.
The chainstay can’t actually grow, in terms of length, without the wheelbase growing as well, right. I get the fork compressing, and moving back, so effectively shortening the wheelbase, but I thought the idea behind the added stability of HP bikes was a lengthening of the wheelbase (relative to its static, or sagged position)
Is it possible, that the RC isn’t lengthening, it’s just moving further up from the bb while cycling through the suspension (so I guess lengthening if it were to be on the same plane, but they’re not, so the axle path is moving up and forward)

Apologies to everyone for possibly hijacking the thread. I think it’s still slightly relevant, as we are discussing a prototype Spesh frame
boozed wrote:
As I understand it we're measuring the distance between the BB and the rear axle in two ways here: 1) The "chainstay length" is the straight...
As I understand it we're measuring the distance between the BB and the rear axle in two ways here:

1) The "chainstay length" is the straight line distance from the BB to the rear axle, which increases throughout travel on most modern designs, because chain growth is positive wherever anti-squat is positive (or vice-versa). VPP is one exception in its implementation where in some cases, the anti-squat goes negative quite close to the end of travel and the chain contracts slightly.

2) The rear centre is effectively the horizontal component of the "chainstay length". If you draw a line on the ground between the BB and the rear axle, it will lengthen initially and then shorten once the axle has (approximately, but for most Horst/FSR designs as near as makes no difference) passed above the height of the pivot and the horizontal component of its motion changes direction.

Hopefully I haven't made any boneheaded mistakes in these explanations...
my dudes, as interesting as this is it‘s gettin a bit off-topic IMO. so please discuss it somewhere else if you wanna keep going Smile
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Primoz
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8/9/2022 8:17am
Correct. boozed nailed it. The wheelbase looks at the distance between both axles, when squishing both ends equally, it's the horizontal distance. As the BB is moving downwards in that case, the BB to rear axle distance increases, but the horizontal distance decreases. Right angle triangle, Pythagoras, etc.

And let's listen to what krabo is saying.
1
D(C)
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Location
CA
Fantasy
8/9/2022 9:34pm
From EWS Whistler photos on the other site - looks like Richie is also a shock based on the Float X. It’s hard to tell from the photo but it looks different from Jesse’s electronic shock.


krabo83
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Location
AT
8/10/2022 12:53am
D(C) wrote:
From EWS Whistler photos on the other site - looks like Richie is also a shock based on the Float X. It’s hard to tell from...
From EWS Whistler photos on the other site - looks like Richie is also a shock based on the Float X. It’s hard to tell from the photo but it looks different from Jesse’s electronic shock.


it has been mentioned at least 3-5 times in this thread that jesse, richie and ed masters are on this electronic shock.
1
3
SB14
Posts
147
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4/21/2018
Location
NO
8/10/2022 1:00am
But Jesse commented on that he was not on electronic suspension.
6
8/10/2022 1:04am
He is. See the Pinkbike video with Jesse.
2
Primoz
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Location
SI
8/10/2022 6:31am
Pinkbike actually had a video detailing the shock and what it does...
2
D(C)
Posts
50
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Location
CA
Fantasy
8/10/2022 6:53am Edited Date/Time 8/10/2022 7:06am
krabo83 wrote:
it has been mentioned at least 3-5 times in this thread that jesse, richie and ed masters are on this electronic shock.
It’s hard to see the details given the resolution of the photo, but I thought it looked different from Jesse’s electronic shock PB recently did an article on. But I could be wrong.

watchcwgo
Posts
87
Joined
3/24/2015
Location
NJ US
8/10/2022 9:07pm
It’s possible Richie has a slightly different version. Seeing the electronic pack on Jesses reservoir, I wondered if frame clearance would be a factor with that design. The medium SB150 may not have the clearance for the same battery placement, given that they are both 230mm shocks.
8/11/2022 6:59am
watchcwgo wrote:
It’s possible Richie has a slightly different version. Seeing the electronic pack on Jesses reservoir, I wondered if frame clearance would be a factor with that...
It’s possible Richie has a slightly different version. Seeing the electronic pack on Jesses reservoir, I wondered if frame clearance would be a factor with that design. The medium SB150 may not have the clearance for the same battery placement, given that they are both 230mm shocks.
And the Pinkbike Video seems to be a little bit older and the shock might be on a new iteration.
jazza_wil
Posts
91
Joined
5/10/2011
Location
whistler, BC CA
8/11/2022 8:25am
Nsmb have pics of a new Chromag that's at crankworx
14
8/11/2022 8:48am
jazza_wil wrote:
Nsmb have pics of a new Chromag that's at crankworx [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/11/12844/s1200_D487163C_FED7_4CE5_BC3E_F6D510D941AF.jpg[/img]
Nsmb have pics of a new Chromag that's at crankworx
Looks like the titanium version of the Darco
Uncle Cliffy
Posts
390
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
8/11/2022 11:47am
jazza_wil wrote:
Nsmb have pics of a new Chromag that's at crankworx [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/11/12844/s1200_D487163C_FED7_4CE5_BC3E_F6D510D941AF.jpg[/img]
Nsmb have pics of a new Chromag that's at crankworx
Good lawd that’s beautiful. 🤤
1
dolface
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Location
CA US
8/11/2022 1:18pm
Good lawd that’s beautiful. 🤤
It's making me reconsider my "absolutely no trunnion mount bikes" stance...
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1
Verbl Kint
Posts
590
Joined
9/13/2013
Location
Quezon City PH
8/12/2022 4:27am
sspomer wrote:
another pic of that polygon [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/08/12824/s1200_IMG_7118.jpg[/img]
another pic of that polygon

I wonder if Polygon has given up on the XSQUAREONE EX with the R3ACT 2PLAY suspension design from NAILD.

If you think the above product jargon is, er, unique, then you should google what the bike looks like.
5
dolface
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Location
CA US
8/12/2022 5:55am
Verbl Kint wrote:
I wonder if Polygon has given up on the XSQUAREONE EX with the R3ACT 2PLAY suspension design from NAILD. [i]If you think the above product jargon...
I wonder if Polygon has given up on the XSQUAREONE EX with the R3ACT 2PLAY suspension design from NAILD.

If you think the above product jargon is, er, unique, then you should google what the bike looks like.
I hope so, afaik Marin have dropped it (I believe Marin and Polygon are owned by the same company).

I suspect that design doesn't play well with the trend towards steeper seat tube angles; the Wolf Ridge 8 has a 73.5° (effective) seat tube angle. https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/2020-wolf-ridge-8#geometry
Primoz
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Location
SI
8/12/2022 6:51am
Probably also doesn't play that well with aluminium frames (weight and all)... And likely with sales numbers as well.
2
metadave
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2/15/2016
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
Fantasy
8/12/2022 1:18pm
I heard nothing but good reviews from people willing to take a chance on them, a local xc smasher got the long travel bike and said he was crushing some uphill Strava personal bests on the 150 Marin.

But I think in cycling form and function are often on equal ground. It needs to work well and it needs to look like current trends. Even the Tantrum bikes reviewed well if I remember correctly (maybe I'm wrong) but I've only seen one locally on a buy sell. It just didn't look right to people even if the concept is good so they won't jump on it. If it looked like a session or SC, they would have sold like bacon pancakes in a beer garden.
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Uncle Cliffy
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390
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Location
Medford, OR US
8/12/2022 1:28pm
metadave wrote:
I heard nothing but good reviews from people willing to take a chance on them, a local xc smasher got the long travel bike and said...
I heard nothing but good reviews from people willing to take a chance on them, a local xc smasher got the long travel bike and said he was crushing some uphill Strava personal bests on the 150 Marin.

But I think in cycling form and function are often on equal ground. It needs to work well and it needs to look like current trends. Even the Tantrum bikes reviewed well if I remember correctly (maybe I'm wrong) but I've only seen one locally on a buy sell. It just didn't look right to people even if the concept is good so they won't jump on it. If it looked like a session or SC, they would have sold like bacon pancakes in a beer garden.
I know a couple dudes who got them. They thought they rode fine, but maintenance and inherent failures steered them away eventually.
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8/12/2022 3:34pm
Devinci testing out a free ride spartan HP? Or a completely new Wilson?
Per Cam Zibo’s instagram
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8/12/2022 6:09pm
Devinci testing out a free ride spartan HP? Or a completely new Wilson? Per Cam Zibo’s instagram [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/12/12848/s1200_8A57F109_9CDE_4F21_B95B_6E1F201E40C9.jpg[/img]
Devinci testing out a free ride spartan HP? Or a completely new Wilson?
Per Cam Zibo’s instagram
Post was taken off his IG or maybe it was from yesterday? Looks interesting!
8/13/2022 7:28am
Devinci testing out a free ride spartan HP? Or a completely new Wilson? Per Cam Zibo’s instagram [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/12/12848/s1200_8A57F109_9CDE_4F21_B95B_6E1F201E40C9.jpg[/img]
Devinci testing out a free ride spartan HP? Or a completely new Wilson?
Per Cam Zibo’s instagram
That shock looks awfully long. Too much like the Spartan design-wise, but with a shock that long… i’d guess it’s got Wilson’s amount of travel! Smile
sspomer
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6155
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Location
Boise, ID US
Fantasy
8/13/2022 10:09am
rampage-specific bike?
2
8/13/2022 12:53pm
Georgia Astle has posted pics of her spartan around crankworks with a fox 40 on the front
jazza_wil
Posts
91
Joined
5/10/2011
Location
whistler, BC CA
8/13/2022 2:04pm
lloyd506 wrote:
Georgia Astle has posted pics of her spartan around crankworks with a fox 40 on the front
The photo she put up of the side view is gone but still had this one up.
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8/13/2022 2:23pm
jazza_wil wrote:
The photo she put up of the side view is gone but still had this one up. [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/13/12858/s1200_04AB0FE2_94F7_420B_8DD6_7897FE30FD1B.jpg[/img]
The photo she put up of the side view is gone but still had this one up.
Looks like the standard spartan with maybe a lowered 40. The one Zink posted looks like it uses the DH sized shock with a smaller rocker link.
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jazza_wil
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91
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Location
whistler, BC CA
8/13/2022 4:13pm
jazza_wil wrote:
The photo she put up of the side view is gone but still had this one up. [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/08/13/12858/s1200_04AB0FE2_94F7_420B_8DD6_7897FE30FD1B.jpg[/img]
The photo she put up of the side view is gone but still had this one up.
Looks like the standard spartan with maybe a lowered 40. The one Zink posted looks like it uses the DH sized shock with a smaller rocker...
Looks like the standard spartan with maybe a lowered 40. The one Zink posted looks like it uses the DH sized shock with a smaller rocker link.
Should have clarified, it’s her regular spartan just with a lowered 40 from memory, I just added the photo as a reference if someone wanted to compare to Cam’s
8/13/2022 9:52pm
Info from PinkBike

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