How would you stop Richie from flatting?

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JVO
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JVO 8/17/2018 3:24pm
8/17/2018 3:24pm
In my opinion he also needs more travel. The bikes he has used have been a 140 and 150mm travel in back. For how fast and how strong he is I am surprised he is not having problems with other Eq. Would he be flatting with a 160-180mm travel? "Nomad" or another longer travel bike. Just a thought that has not been brought up.
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luisgutrod
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luisgutrod 8/17/2018 3:40pm
8/17/2018 3:40pm
JVO wrote:
In my opinion he also needs more travel. The bikes he has used have been a 140 and 150mm travel in back. For how fast and...
In my opinion he also needs more travel. The bikes he has used have been a 140 and 150mm travel in back. For how fast and how strong he is I am surprised he is not having problems with other Eq. Would he be flatting with a 160-180mm travel? "Nomad" or another longer travel bike. Just a thought that has not been brought up.
I agree with you 100%. 165mm at least.
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Fox
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Fox 8/17/2018 5:25pm
8/17/2018 5:25pm
jeff.brines wrote:
The Yeti is one bike I've spent a fair amount of time on. I really liked the suspension action, but it is fairly linear. http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016/04/yeti-sb55c-29-2016.html (the...
The Yeti is one bike I've spent a fair amount of time on. I really liked the suspension action, but it is fairly linear. http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016/04/yeti-sb55c-29-2016.html (the SB6 and 55 are the same curve)

This fits an air shock well, as one can use tokens to get the bike to ramp up as much or as little as they want. Allowing the rider to fine tune how they are using the bike's travel.

With a coil, you really can't alter this curve, and are relying on damping, specifically HSC damping to keep your bike from bottoming as the bike is linear, as well as the coil spring. This means for a given force, you are going to use more travel with a coil (assuming starting spring rate is the same) than you would an air shock, especially late into the shock's travel.

For most mortals, this isn't a huge deal. But for guys like Richie, or even heavy guys like me, its a big deal as the forces put through the system become exponential (big guys smashing) at speed.

There are other properties of an air spring that also help keep the system from blowing through its travel (an air spring is semi speed sensitive, as well as position sensitive - coils are not)

With the coil, you can find the end of the system in certain situations, and this puts additional stress on the wheel, tire, etc.

I've run coils on linear setups like that Yeti. It felt awesome. The grip was great. But I did flat every single race I did. (and I'm not richie...clearly)

onthewhiskey wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, some companies have been working with progressive bottom-out bumpers for the coil shocks, fox being one of those that I recall. Not...
If I'm not mistaken, some companies have been working with progressive bottom-out bumpers for the coil shocks, fox being one of those that I recall. Not sure how much force they can dissipate with them, or how close it would come to an air shock.

Regarding the moto mouse: It's available, but at least for outdoor nationals, it is one of their last resorts. Maybe only 1 or 2 tracks that the pro teams run them as they all prefer the feel of a standard air setup. At least the last time I was following the series that was the case.

Also regarding the air spring being "somewhat speed sensitive", could you clarify farther? Not sure I understand how the physics behind this would work.

Progressive bottom out bumpers on coil shocks work really well. Push uses a special one on the coil shocks they sell for the SI equipped Yeti bikes. They don’t last that long in my experience using them in automotive rally car applications, but when they are fresh they are very effective.
Fox
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Fox 8/17/2018 5:55pm
8/17/2018 5:55pm
ebruner wrote:
I'm a moderately skilled weekend warrior mountain bike rider, and a highly skilled road course racing driver (Miata's) including some endurance races. I don't have much...
I'm a moderately skilled weekend warrior mountain bike rider, and a highly skilled road course racing driver (Miata's) including some endurance races. I don't have much to add with regards to making adjustments to Richie Rude's riding because I just can't put as much energy into the bike/terrain as he can.

What I can interject with is what i know from endurance racing. The best endurance racing drivers know how to extract 98-99% from the vehicles capabilities without putting the car at 99-100% of what it can stand mechanically. In the track world, we describe it as mechanical empathy.

For example... If a car is capable of a 1:30 lap time on a given course... the best and most sought after drivers will be capable of doing a 1:29 - 1:29.5 without bouncing the car off curbs, short shifting by 200rpm on the back straight, coasting into 1-2 braking zones on track and maintaining minimum corner speed instead of charging into the braking zone hard. This sort of driving is what defines the difference between a good racer and a great racer.

This is what I think defines the difference between enduro and downhill racing. In downhill, flatout is the only option. It's an all in sport where the top 10 are separated typically by 1-5 seconds. It is by definition a sprint race. In contrast, enduro is very obviously, a game of endurance.

I think the big change over for enduro and by extension, for Rude in the last 2 years is that the competition, bike development and courses are forcing enduro to transition from a game of endurance into being a long distance sprint race. I think no one can deny Rude's ability to smash terrain with reckless abandon, but maybe the missing component is being able to achieve that 95-99% speed with 90% effort.

Maybe it's because he feels he's trying to bust a slump and he's over riding the terrain. Maybe the competition has grown in the last two years such that Rude feels he has to be at 100% to maintain a gap to competitors. Maybe it's just absolute, bad luck. It's tough to tell because there are so many variables.

What isn't tough to tell is that enduro is an ever shifting landscape and the last two years have had even more variables thrown into the mix then any I can remember in years previous EWS and UCI DH. I think the pace that the riders are holding themselves to my mean that some riding styles need to be adjusted in the name of finding consistency.

Either way, flats suck and they ruin racing just like crashes ruin racing on the automotive side. Some times you're the hammer, and some times, you're the nail
I have heard this described by professional race car drivers as “racecraft.” Kind of a cheesy term, but it summarizes well what you have described. Yes, you gotta be fast, but you also gotta be smooth and save the machine. The winners balance all of these components. It goes a level higher still in terms of winning the whole series. What has become apparent in the last two EWS seasons is that Hill is a master in all of these ways.

Jerome Clementz, in his interviews last year when he announced his stepping away from racing EWS, commented on how the pace has gone up and up and up at the EWS in the last few years. I think that is some of what is going on with RR’s undisputed run of complete dominance in the ‘15 and ‘16 season coming to an end. He feels he has to push it to a sketchy level to win and it’s hard for him to preserve the machine when he’s riding at the limit like that. As another poster pointed out below, you also have to preserve your body if you are gonna win the whole thing. Richie is such a tank that so far that’s only really slowed him down in Aspen in ‘17.

It is really cool to watch the current group of young guns at the top as they go up against the seasoned master, Hill, arguably in his prime right now.
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Fox
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Fox 8/17/2018 6:01pm
8/17/2018 6:01pm
JVO wrote:
In my opinion he also needs more travel. The bikes he has used have been a 140 and 150mm travel in back. For how fast and...
In my opinion he also needs more travel. The bikes he has used have been a 140 and 150mm travel in back. For how fast and how strong he is I am surprised he is not having problems with other Eq. Would he be flatting with a 160-180mm travel? "Nomad" or another longer travel bike. Just a thought that has not been brought up.
Interesting to think about this idea. It seems like more travel would help decrease the incidence of flats, but would it?

There are still a ton of flats in DH and some of the wheel hits on the EWS seems to be getting close to that level.

I wouldn’t know. I’m slow enough that I can get away with low PSI and soft suspension. ?
SebastianRGonzalez 8/17/2018 8:16pm
8/17/2018 8:16pm
Time to get some Graphene or carbon nanotubes in tire construction. Prices are already ridiculous in mountain bike, so a $500 tire will be reasonable right?
1
Big Dos
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Big Dos 8/18/2018 4:51am
8/18/2018 4:51am
ebruner wrote:
I'm a moderately skilled weekend warrior mountain bike rider, and a highly skilled road course racing driver (Miata's) including some endurance races. I don't have much...
I'm a moderately skilled weekend warrior mountain bike rider, and a highly skilled road course racing driver (Miata's) including some endurance races. I don't have much to add with regards to making adjustments to Richie Rude's riding because I just can't put as much energy into the bike/terrain as he can.

What I can interject with is what i know from endurance racing. The best endurance racing drivers know how to extract 98-99% from the vehicles capabilities without putting the car at 99-100% of what it can stand mechanically. In the track world, we describe it as mechanical empathy.

For example... If a car is capable of a 1:30 lap time on a given course... the best and most sought after drivers will be capable of doing a 1:29 - 1:29.5 without bouncing the car off curbs, short shifting by 200rpm on the back straight, coasting into 1-2 braking zones on track and maintaining minimum corner speed instead of charging into the braking zone hard. This sort of driving is what defines the difference between a good racer and a great racer.

This is what I think defines the difference between enduro and downhill racing. In downhill, flatout is the only option. It's an all in sport where the top 10 are separated typically by 1-5 seconds. It is by definition a sprint race. In contrast, enduro is very obviously, a game of endurance.

I think the big change over for enduro and by extension, for Rude in the last 2 years is that the competition, bike development and courses are forcing enduro to transition from a game of endurance into being a long distance sprint race. I think no one can deny Rude's ability to smash terrain with reckless abandon, but maybe the missing component is being able to achieve that 95-99% speed with 90% effort.

Maybe it's because he feels he's trying to bust a slump and he's over riding the terrain. Maybe the competition has grown in the last two years such that Rude feels he has to be at 100% to maintain a gap to competitors. Maybe it's just absolute, bad luck. It's tough to tell because there are so many variables.

What isn't tough to tell is that enduro is an ever shifting landscape and the last two years have had even more variables thrown into the mix then any I can remember in years previous EWS and UCI DH. I think the pace that the riders are holding themselves to my mean that some riding styles need to be adjusted in the name of finding consistency.

Either way, flats suck and they ruin racing just like crashes ruin racing on the automotive side. Some times you're the hammer, and some times, you're the nail
ebruner - Fantastic post and I completely agree. I don't really have anything to add other than an example and what I would consider to be the rule of this theory over the past 2 years - Sam Hill. You can see that he along with a few other select riders are doing exactly what you explain above. Is there potential that riders like Graves and Rude who have been in the EWS since the beginning and are former winners of the series are having issues transitioning to this style of racing effectively and consistently given the increased competition and speeds? I think so.
Big Dos
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Big Dos 8/18/2018 4:54am
8/18/2018 4:54am
JVO wrote:
In my opinion he also needs more travel. The bikes he has used have been a 140 and 150mm travel in back. For how fast and...
In my opinion he also needs more travel. The bikes he has used have been a 140 and 150mm travel in back. For how fast and how strong he is I am surprised he is not having problems with other Eq. Would he be flatting with a 160-180mm travel? "Nomad" or another longer travel bike. Just a thought that has not been brought up.
Fox wrote:
Interesting to think about this idea. It seems like more travel would help decrease the incidence of flats, but would it? There are still a ton...
Interesting to think about this idea. It seems like more travel would help decrease the incidence of flats, but would it?

There are still a ton of flats in DH and some of the wheel hits on the EWS seems to be getting close to that level.

I wouldn’t know. I’m slow enough that I can get away with low PSI and soft suspension. ?
You would think that even if it was marginal, having increased suspension travel and static sag should decrease your likelihood of getting a flat in some scenarios due to the increased impact absorption capabilities.
matmattmatthew
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matmattmatthew 8/18/2018 7:41am
8/18/2018 7:41am
In a recent video with Sam Hill at the Whistler EWS, he was walking the track talking about line choices and he made several comments about picking lines that keep you out of big compressions even if it's a fraction of a second slower. He emphasized the toll those compressions would take on your bike and body over the course of the whole race. I think that mindset and strategy is one of the reasons he's been so successful the last two years. It seems like he's able to carry a faster average speed over an entire stage (and race) but doesn't necessarily take every "hero" line even if it's slightly quicker.

It seems like a lot of racers, not just rude, feel like they have to hit every single little ninja line to be competitive but in many cases that's taking a huge toll on the bike and body. Sam seems so relaxed and way less ragged than he used to look in his early days of DH, lately, his riding style has been reminding me of Minnaar.
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chiefy
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chiefy 8/18/2018 9:33am
8/18/2018 9:33am
a bunch of internet larrys suggesting that one of the best mountain bike riders on the planet needs to chose better lines is hilarious...I bet 90% of the people commenting on this post haven't even seen Richie ride in person. The dude is smooth as hell, much smoother than probably any of us. You try being competitive at an EWS event. EWS track are savage. Flats happen. It's racing.
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andrew.macnaughton 8/18/2018 9:34am
8/18/2018 9:34am
matmattmatthew wrote:
In a recent video with Sam Hill at the Whistler EWS, he was walking the track talking about line choices and he made several comments about...
In a recent video with Sam Hill at the Whistler EWS, he was walking the track talking about line choices and he made several comments about picking lines that keep you out of big compressions even if it's a fraction of a second slower. He emphasized the toll those compressions would take on your bike and body over the course of the whole race. I think that mindset and strategy is one of the reasons he's been so successful the last two years. It seems like he's able to carry a faster average speed over an entire stage (and race) but doesn't necessarily take every "hero" line even if it's slightly quicker.

It seems like a lot of racers, not just rude, feel like they have to hit every single little ninja line to be competitive but in many cases that's taking a huge toll on the bike and body. Sam seems so relaxed and way less ragged than he used to look in his early days of DH, lately, his riding style has been reminding me of Minnaar.
Minaar spoke about this too in the WC. That people get obsessed with finding gaps/hucks/tricky lines, and it was implied that it was more ferdaboyz than actually being a good consistent way race.

This has been a great thread with some interesting reading.
chiefy
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chiefy 8/18/2018 9:39am
8/18/2018 9:39am
andrew.macnaughton wrote:
Minaar spoke about this too in the WC. That people get obsessed with finding gaps/hucks/tricky lines, and it was implied that it was more ferdaboyz than...
Minaar spoke about this too in the WC. That people get obsessed with finding gaps/hucks/tricky lines, and it was implied that it was more ferdaboyz than actually being a good consistent way race.

This has been a great thread with some interesting reading.
I recall a video (w/ Ben Cathro) of Minaar sending a janky ass gap at the last world cup and literally ripping a head-size chunk of stump out of the ground....there is no dogma in mountain bike racing people....
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bulletbass man 8/18/2018 10:38am
8/18/2018 10:38am
If anyone should be riding with a mousse in his tires it's Richie. Guy certainly has the power to deal with extra weight.

However I was listening to the maker of Unno bikes on a podcast the other day, and he was suggesting that tire makers simply need to produce a much beefier and stronger tire for the riders of today. I think it makes a lot of sense than adding weight thru a mousse, cushcore, or modified pool noodle that simply tires with an even heavier sidewall/casing is the way to go.
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Verbl Kint
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Verbl Kint 8/18/2018 11:38am
8/18/2018 11:38am
If equipment reliability is TRULY the main concern, then what's the difference now vs. the years when he won back to back?
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rludes025
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rludes025 8/18/2018 12:10pm
8/18/2018 12:10pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
If equipment reliability is TRULY the main concern, then what's the difference now vs. the years when he won back to back?
probably going just a little harder mixed with lady luck.
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b-lec 8/18/2018 3:38pm
8/18/2018 3:38pm
kolsen wrote:
Pick better lines
I need to disagree with this one too. I've seen him ride in person as well and he's about as finesse as you can get - he's just riding really fast and he is a big guy (for enduro). Even if he rides the same exact lines as Oton or Hill, F=ma, and he has both more mass and acceleration than those two guys so he's putting more force into the tires.

I think he needs more travel. That's the easiest way to reduce the acceleration and reduce the load going into the ground. Yeti needs a 160 29 or a 180 version of the SB6.
bulletbass man 8/18/2018 4:07pm
8/18/2018 4:07pm
kolsen wrote:
Pick better lines
b-lec wrote:
I need to disagree with this one too. I've seen him ride in person as well and he's about as finesse as you can get -...
I need to disagree with this one too. I've seen him ride in person as well and he's about as finesse as you can get - he's just riding really fast and he is a big guy (for enduro). Even if he rides the same exact lines as Oton or Hill, F=ma, and he has both more mass and acceleration than those two guys so he's putting more force into the tires.

I think he needs more travel. That's the easiest way to reduce the acceleration and reduce the load going into the ground. Yeti needs a 160 29 or a 180 version of the SB6.
More travel really doesn't reduce the load into the ground. Biggest issue with tires is they generally take the load before the suspension starts working. If you ride a bike straight into a curb, sure you are less likely to go otb with more travel, but your tire is still going to take a huge square edged force before your fork compresses.
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Fox
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Fox 8/18/2018 8:23pm
8/18/2018 8:23pm
bulletbass man wrote:
If anyone should be riding with a mousse in his tires it's Richie. Guy certainly has the power to deal with extra weight. However I was...
If anyone should be riding with a mousse in his tires it's Richie. Guy certainly has the power to deal with extra weight.

However I was listening to the maker of Unno bikes on a podcast the other day, and he was suggesting that tire makers simply need to produce a much beefier and stronger tire for the riders of today. I think it makes a lot of sense than adding weight thru a mousse, cushcore, or modified pool noodle that simply tires with an even heavier sidewall/casing is the way to go.
This is a great point. These guys are at 1200-1300gms/tire plus a cushcore which is another 250gms(?) plus a bunch of sealant. I think Graves commented somewhere a while back (earlier this season) that his tire setup as described above was over 1600gms.

Why not put another 200-300gms of rubber on the casing for guys like RR and loose the cushcore? A DH+ casing. Yes, it’d be stiffer, but it seems crazy to think that with today’s tech you couldn’t find a sweet spot of pressure and casing construction that could provide optimal dampening and traction while being significantly more flat resistant than the current DH tires.
Oz_Taylor
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Oz_Taylor 8/19/2018 5:49am
8/19/2018 5:49am
Simple answer. He needs to lose weight.

You only have to look at the most consistent guys. They are super slim and light on their equipment. Sam Hill has slimmed down for this season. I think Chris Ball mentioned this in the crankworx live feed. That an ‘enduro physique’ is starting to appear amongst the top riders.

Just makes sense that over 2 days of racing, you have less chance of mechanicals and flats if you are lighter. Also helps with suspension setup and the obvious power to weight ratio.
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luisgutrod
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luisgutrod 8/19/2018 7:54am
8/19/2018 7:54am
Oz_Taylor wrote:
Simple answer. He needs to lose weight. You only have to look at the most consistent guys. They are super slim and light on their equipment...
Simple answer. He needs to lose weight.

You only have to look at the most consistent guys. They are super slim and light on their equipment. Sam Hill has slimmed down for this season. I think Chris Ball mentioned this in the crankworx live feed. That an ‘enduro physique’ is starting to appear amongst the top riders.

Just makes sense that over 2 days of racing, you have less chance of mechanicals and flats if you are lighter. Also helps with suspension setup and the obvious power to weight ratio.
makes sense... probably his version of "light on the bike" is my "6ft huck to flat" into rocks..
Oz_Taylor
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Oz_Taylor 8/19/2018 10:47am
8/19/2018 10:47am
luisgutrod wrote:
makes sense... probably his version of "light on the bike" is my "6ft huck to flat" into rocks..
I don’t think his riding style is at fault. He’s got Every skill in the book. Just that with so little practise at the EWS (limited to one practise run this year) its not possible to remember and avoid every bike breaking rock. The speeds these guys ride, its inevitable they are going to hit something over 6 long stages.

Another rider who has been suffering with mechanicals and punctures is Graves. No secret that he’s been hitting the gym, look at the guns! Over a single stage he’s a top 3 rider but the reliability over an event isn’t there. I’m not sure it’s a coincidence.
Shawn_Trudell 8/19/2018 1:30pm
8/19/2018 1:30pm Edited Date/Time 8/19/2018 1:34pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
If equipment reliability is TRULY the main concern, then what's the difference now vs. the years when he won back to back?
Tracks are getting progressively nastier every race. Competetition is also getting tighter every race so probably pushing extra hard tryin to keep a level of success. Riding a shorter travel bike (won on the sb6, now mostly rides the sb5 and sb55). He also bounces between the DT471 and the DT511 however I’m not sure the major differences between the two. It would be interesting if we could compile a list of which equipment he’s running when he flats vs when he doesn’t. Maybe the rim profile has something to do with it. . . .i don’t know.
tmano2
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tmano2 8/19/2018 4:20pm
8/19/2018 4:20pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
If equipment reliability is TRULY the main concern, then what's the difference now vs. the years when he won back to back?
Shawn_Trudell wrote:
Tracks are getting progressively nastier every race. Competetition is also getting tighter every race so probably pushing extra hard tryin to keep a level of success...
Tracks are getting progressively nastier every race. Competetition is also getting tighter every race so probably pushing extra hard tryin to keep a level of success. Riding a shorter travel bike (won on the sb6, now mostly rides the sb5 and sb55). He also bounces between the DT471 and the DT511 however I’m not sure the major differences between the two. It would be interesting if we could compile a list of which equipment he’s running when he flats vs when he doesn’t. Maybe the rim profile has something to do with it. . . .i don’t know.
the 471 are 25mm wide and the 511 are 30mm wide. other than thar, they are the same
liquidSpin
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liquidSpin 8/19/2018 4:43pm
8/19/2018 4:43pm
HAHAHA sorry, I had to post this:

erik saunders
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erik saunders 8/20/2018 4:39am
8/20/2018 4:39am
As a heavier guy I flat only because a rim dent disturbs the rim tape... Even with cushcore... For me, running a rim that doesn't need tape, like a mavic wheel could make the difference, maybe also for Richie if he is flatting for the same reason..
matmattmatthew
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matmattmatthew 8/20/2018 6:27am
8/20/2018 6:27am
Verbl Kint wrote:
If equipment reliability is TRULY the main concern, then what's the difference now vs. the years when he won back to back?
Shawn_Trudell wrote:
Tracks are getting progressively nastier every race. Competetition is also getting tighter every race so probably pushing extra hard tryin to keep a level of success...
Tracks are getting progressively nastier every race. Competetition is also getting tighter every race so probably pushing extra hard tryin to keep a level of success. Riding a shorter travel bike (won on the sb6, now mostly rides the sb5 and sb55). He also bounces between the DT471 and the DT511 however I’m not sure the major differences between the two. It would be interesting if we could compile a list of which equipment he’s running when he flats vs when he doesn’t. Maybe the rim profile has something to do with it. . . .i don’t know.
The tracks getting nastier might have some to do with it. I remember at one of the EWS rounds this year there was a lot of talk about how each venue seems like they are trying to 1-up each other in terms of "gnarliness." Maybe Rude's (and Graves?) riding style fit the 2013-2016 tracks better and these new tracks are better suited for a different crop of riders.
jeff.brines
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jeff.brines 8/20/2018 8:01am
8/20/2018 8:01am
Wow! Awesome comments by all!!

Few thoughts...

1) To the poster asking about air being semi-speed sensitive I suggest you listen to this... https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/TECH-TALK-Air-Shocks-Versus-Coil-Shoc… as it touches on the adiabatic process. This is what I was referring to. Really the position sensitivity and manipulation of an airshock is most important in this equation, but yeah, I did want to throw this out there too.

The poster asking about a coil being better in the midstroke, that is something we can debate (not saying you are wrong), but the midstroke of the shock is not where flats happen. Its when you use all the travel and your tire (and rim) becomes your last in line bottom out bumper...

2) To those asking about bike travel. Duh. This absolutely makes sense. Big dude smashing = needs more travel. Those debating if this would make an impact (no pun intended) on the number of flats, the answer is YES *if* those flats are generally coming from pinching/smooshing the tire against something. If its cutting a sidewall on a sharp rock, it wouldn't make a difference.

If you want proof go take a DH bike and start smashing up some stairs at low-ish psi (25?). Now go take a hardtail with the same setup and do that. See which one pinches/cuts faster. See which one is harder on your wheels.

Richie is so strong an extra 20mm of travel wouldn't hinder his sprints, especially if its engineered well (hell, put a lockout on the bar if you want)

3) The level is insanely high. I agree there. So many guys can win, and you have to bring the full package to stand on the podium. Fitness, technical bike handling, and the ability to know what your machine is capable of. Kind of reminds me of Days of Thunder when Tom Cruise is lectured on tire wear. Its not just how fast you are riding but how sustainabley you can do it. Either way, those writing about knowing what you can do and what you need to do have a great point, and its something Sam clearly has figured out.

4) Richie is an amazing bike rider, but I wouldn't say he's smooth. Yes, I've seen him ride first hand. He's smooth for a big guy but he still smashes stuff in a way that'd make Nico cringe Wink He's not scared to hit stuff. That's the point of this thread in a way.

In any case, psyched to see all the responses. Some good ideas floating around in here!


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andrew.macnaughton 8/20/2018 9:57am
8/20/2018 9:57am
You're thinking that most of his flats are caused whilst bottoming out the rear suspension (or when the suspension effectively loses its ability to provide support). I wonder whether grabbing an inopportune handful of brake, which de-sensifies the suspension could play a factor too.

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