That seems like a wild leap to make - are you assuming because a designer lives in asia they don't ride mountain bikes? It probably helps...
That seems like a wild leap to make - are you assuming because a designer lives in asia they don't ride mountain bikes? It probably helps for the lead designer to be living right near the factory they are made so I don't see what you're getting at there?
What I’m getting at is they claim to be core but are not. They don’t employ a single engineer in the USA. Yes it’s true I’ve met(not gunna name drop) him a few times. For example other brands like Norco have in house engineering done. It’s all good they make cool stuff just can’t stand brands being downright lazy with frames in 2026
Recently learned how hands-off Transition is for manufacturing. They basically do the industrial design and pivot layout then the factory does the rest. No in-house composite...
Recently learned how hands-off Transition is for manufacturing. They basically do the industrial design and pivot layout then the factory does the rest. No in-house composite engineer or stress analysts at least double checking what the factory is doing. I know they’re not unique in this, but they’re charging a lot for what is basically a Transition shaped catalog frame.
They give a lot back to the riding community here, so as a local it’s a little easier to stomach, but if I were outside Washington it would be a much harder sell.
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
Saying a company isn’t core because Is doesn’t employ a specialist engineer that they’d only need maybe 20% of a FTE role is like Fugazi wasn’t core because they didn’t have a sound tech.
is frameworks a catalog brand then? engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off...
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
is frameworks a catalog brand then? engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off...
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting...
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then.
Since when does it matter ultimately if engineering is in house, us based contractors or Taiwanese contractors?
Catalogue implies picking a frame from a pre-designed catalog. Not having a bespoken frame made and engineered for you.
Particularly frames like the Spur, which catalogue did they pick that from?
Recently learned how hands-off Transition is for manufacturing. They basically do the industrial design and pivot layout then the factory does the rest. No in-house composite...
Recently learned how hands-off Transition is for manufacturing. They basically do the industrial design and pivot layout then the factory does the rest. No in-house composite engineer or stress analysts at least double checking what the factory is doing. I know they’re not unique in this, but they’re charging a lot for what is basically a Transition shaped catalog frame.
They give a lot back to the riding community here, so as a local it’s a little easier to stomach, but if I were outside Washington it would be a much harder sell.
is frameworks a catalog brand then? engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off...
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
I certainly wouldn’t consider them catalog. But if I remember right in an early Frameworks video Neko talked about using that strategy for their carbon seat stay. Basically design a part, find a factory, have that factory build a mold and design the laminate, then have finished parts delivered.
The bulk of composites manufacturing knowledge in the bike industry “lives” in Asia where things are being built. I personally have no problem with that, or companies that outsource their engineering either domestically or overseas. Having worked with foreign and domestic suppliers across a few industries the strategy is always “Trust, but Verify” so I was surprised there wasn’t an in-house verify person to give things a sniff test.
This discussion makes me wonder. Does this strategy speak to the current stagnation of bicycle innovation as a whole? There’s been plenty of discussion around how good current bike are and the asymptotic march towards the crab link bike, but are decisions like outsourcing composites engineering, or linkage design hurting innovation? I’m not saying this one decision is the root cause, but rather is it a symptom?
is frameworks a catalog brand then? engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off...
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting...
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then. Since when does it matter ultimately...
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then.
Since when does it matter ultimately if engineering is in house, us based contractors or Taiwanese contractors?
Catalogue implies picking a frame from a pre-designed catalog. Not having a bespoken frame made and engineered for you.
Particularly frames like the Spur, which catalogue did they pick that from?
Engineering capability in house matters when things go wrong. If the systems are robust enough that nothing goes wrong then marketing type companies can trundle along fine. But when relatively simple things like tolerance errors and parts breakages rear their heads it is often impossible for marketing type companies to even find the root cause, let alone find a working solution.
is frameworks a catalog brand then? engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off...
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting...
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
The soft undercurrent of a few of these post seems to imply anything made in Asia or engineered by Asians is somehow of lower quality. Engineering really has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. You can find high and low quality products everywhere in the world. Quality is a reflection of the decisions made by the brand not the the citizenship or location of the engineers.
If you are manufacturing at scale at some point you'll need to work with a factory and their engineers. And you'd have a hard time finding a greater concentration of institutional knowledge and engineering expertise in frame manufacturing, in any material, than in the area surrounding Taichung, Taiwan. Using Frameworks as an example, they work with a Canadian engineering firm in the design and prototype process, but they most certainly would have leaned on their overseas supplier's engineering and expertise as they moved to scale up production beyond what they could do with FTW. Neko has talked about this previously, specifically the improved design and internal butting of tubesets, the bb and lower shock mount construction, and the forging/machining of linkages. Moving production to a frame builder overseas gave them access to capabilities and technology they didn't have previously. The difference between the previous generation and current FW bikes is pretty significant, but they didn't just pick the parts out of a catalog either.
It's a collaborative process, and the engineers and project managers at the factory are the experts when it comes to turning a customers drawings and CAD files into a finished product. They know their machines and processes, they work with the various suppliers that might be involved, and have ultimately seen tens of thousands of frames produced successfully and otherwise.
It makes complete sense for a brand manufacturing frames at scale to work closely with their supplier's engineering and design team. If they've already been collaborating together for years what do they gain from adding another layer and cost to the process? How Transition or similar brand manages this is hard to know, seems like most of the original basis for this discussion was one poster's opinion of their bikes and from there extrapolated how the company operates and who is or is not on staff?
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting...
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then. Since when does it matter ultimately...
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then.
Since when does it matter ultimately if engineering is in house, us based contractors or Taiwanese contractors?
Catalogue implies picking a frame from a pre-designed catalog. Not having a bespoken frame made and engineered for you.
Particularly frames like the Spur, which catalogue did they pick that from?
Engineering capability in house matters when things go wrong. If the systems are robust enough that nothing goes wrong then marketing type companies can trundle along...
Engineering capability in house matters when things go wrong. If the systems are robust enough that nothing goes wrong then marketing type companies can trundle along fine. But when relatively simple things like tolerance errors and parts breakages rear their heads it is often impossible for marketing type companies to even find the root cause, let alone find a working solution.
That's an awfully confident statement from someone with little or no experience operating a company with large scale outsourced production, overseas or domestic. Care to share a factual example? Also what and who is a 'marketing type brand?'
Last I checked the bike industry is collection of honest brands, riders, and designers trying their best to make products of value or improve the experience and enjoyment of other cyclists. Of course they also have to market and advertise if they want to stay in business, but both realities can coexist.
You're the NZ distributer for Hayes/Manitou and operate a suspension tuning company, and market yourself by going on forums and repeatedly being condescending and credulous towards everything and anyone else that doesn't benefit your own business or align with you personal preference.
That's an awfully confident statement from someone with little or no experience operating a company with large scale outsourced production, overseas or domestic. Care to share...
That's an awfully confident statement from someone with little or no experience operating a company with large scale outsourced production, overseas or domestic. Care to share a factual example? Also what and who is a 'marketing type brand?'
Last I checked the bike industry is collection of honest brands, riders, and designers trying their best to make products of value or improve the experience and enjoyment of other cyclists. Of course they also have to market and advertise if they want to stay in business, but both realities can coexist.
You're the NZ distributer for Hayes/Manitou and operate a suspension tuning company, and market yourself by going on forums and repeatedly being condescending and credulous towards everything and anyone else that doesn't benefit your own business or align with you personal preference.
It's really interesting how many people get their back up as soon as you mention Engineering. I'm a Suspension Engineer. My company only sells parts I like. Across all brands. Because why would we sell or support stuff we didn't? I find problems and some people get really upset when they've bought those problems. It's almost religious.
is frameworks a catalog brand then? engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off...
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting...
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
The soft undercurrent of a few of these post seems to imply anything made in Asia or engineered by Asians is somehow of lower quality. Engineering...
The soft undercurrent of a few of these post seems to imply anything made in Asia or engineered by Asians is somehow of lower quality. Engineering really has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. You can find high and low quality products everywhere in the world. Quality is a reflection of the decisions made by the brand not the the citizenship or location of the engineers.
If you are manufacturing at scale at some point you'll need to work with a factory and their engineers. And you'd have a hard time finding a greater concentration of institutional knowledge and engineering expertise in frame manufacturing, in any material, than in the area surrounding Taichung, Taiwan. Using Frameworks as an example, they work with a Canadian engineering firm in the design and prototype process, but they most certainly would have leaned on their overseas supplier's engineering and expertise as they moved to scale up production beyond what they could do with FTW. Neko has talked about this previously, specifically the improved design and internal butting of tubesets, the bb and lower shock mount construction, and the forging/machining of linkages. Moving production to a frame builder overseas gave them access to capabilities and technology they didn't have previously. The difference between the previous generation and current FW bikes is pretty significant, but they didn't just pick the parts out of a catalog either.
It's a collaborative process, and the engineers and project managers at the factory are the experts when it comes to turning a customers drawings and CAD files into a finished product. They know their machines and processes, they work with the various suppliers that might be involved, and have ultimately seen tens of thousands of frames produced successfully and otherwise.
It makes complete sense for a brand manufacturing frames at scale to work closely with their supplier's engineering and design team. If they've already been collaborating together for years what do they gain from adding another layer and cost to the process? How Transition or similar brand manages this is hard to know, seems like most of the original basis for this discussion was one poster's opinion of their bikes and from there extrapolated how the company operates and who is or is not on staff?
I don’t think the discussion was meant to deride Asian engineering or manufacturing. I fully agree with you that Taiwan and China are better at manufacturing bikes than western countries. My thought is as a bike designer how do you make products better when you don’t have a firm grasp on how they are made? That’s what I think a company has to gain from bringing additional depth of knowledge in house. Does knowing more of the nitty gritty allow those designers to push boundaries a bit further?
That's an awfully confident statement from someone with little or no experience operating a company with large scale outsourced production, overseas or domestic. Care to share...
That's an awfully confident statement from someone with little or no experience operating a company with large scale outsourced production, overseas or domestic. Care to share a factual example? Also what and who is a 'marketing type brand?'
Last I checked the bike industry is collection of honest brands, riders, and designers trying their best to make products of value or improve the experience and enjoyment of other cyclists. Of course they also have to market and advertise if they want to stay in business, but both realities can coexist.
You're the NZ distributer for Hayes/Manitou and operate a suspension tuning company, and market yourself by going on forums and repeatedly being condescending and credulous towards everything and anyone else that doesn't benefit your own business or align with you personal preference.
It's really interesting how many people get their back up as soon as you mention Engineering. I'm a Suspension Engineer. My company only sells parts I...
It's really interesting how many people get their back up as soon as you mention Engineering. I'm a Suspension Engineer. My company only sells parts I like. Across all brands. Because why would we sell or support stuff we didn't? I find problems and some people get really upset when they've bought those problems. It's almost religious.
DVO was a great example of a marketing company.
Noted. So as the in-house suspension engineer for your own small suspension tuning company, what expertise and experience are you drawing on to make such a broad, declarative assessment about large scale manufacturing and production and the brands that rely on it?
Please spare us your tired feud with DVO. You've already poisoned the well in multiple other forums with that.
Anyway, while I'm happy to share my own narrow experience with Taiwan based manufacturing I won't proclaim to be an expert or an authority, just a sample size of one.
But I've made it a rule to show myself the door of any forum post Dougal enters.
Noted. So as the in-house suspension engineer for your own small suspension tuning company, what expertise and experience are you drawing on to make such a...
Noted. So as the in-house suspension engineer for your own small suspension tuning company, what expertise and experience are you drawing on to make such a broad, declarative assessment about large scale manufacturing and production and the brands that rely on it?
Please spare us your tired feud with DVO. You've already poisoned the well in multiple other forums with that.
Anyway, while I'm happy to share my own narrow experience with Taiwan based manufacturing I won't proclaim to be an expert or an authority, just a sample size of one.
But I've made it a rule to show myself the door of any forum post Dougal enters.
Plenty of experience and expertise. I deal with this stuff and the resulting problems daily. Because I'm in it deeper I find problems that most people never know exist. But that's okay.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting...
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then. Since when does it matter ultimately...
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then.
Since when does it matter ultimately if engineering is in house, us based contractors or Taiwanese contractors?
Catalogue implies picking a frame from a pre-designed catalog. Not having a bespoken frame made and engineered for you.
Particularly frames like the Spur, which catalogue did they pick that from?
Engineering capability in house matters when things go wrong. If the systems are robust enough that nothing goes wrong then marketing type companies can trundle along...
Engineering capability in house matters when things go wrong. If the systems are robust enough that nothing goes wrong then marketing type companies can trundle along fine. But when relatively simple things like tolerance errors and parts breakages rear their heads it is often impossible for marketing type companies to even find the root cause, let alone find a working solution.
Low-key DVO is kind of the exact opposite where they don’t have a good relationship or didn’t have a great relationship with their manufacture/parts supplier because DVO did have a lot of really good stuff in their suspension. It was just built really poorly and had a fuck ton of tolerance issues and seal issues and stuff like that to be honest when the diamond came out, it was far superior to the 36 or the lyric of that time
is frameworks a catalog brand then? engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off...
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting...
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
The soft undercurrent of a few of these post seems to imply anything made in Asia or engineered by Asians is somehow of lower quality. Engineering...
The soft undercurrent of a few of these post seems to imply anything made in Asia or engineered by Asians is somehow of lower quality. Engineering really has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. You can find high and low quality products everywhere in the world. Quality is a reflection of the decisions made by the brand not the the citizenship or location of the engineers.
If you are manufacturing at scale at some point you'll need to work with a factory and their engineers. And you'd have a hard time finding a greater concentration of institutional knowledge and engineering expertise in frame manufacturing, in any material, than in the area surrounding Taichung, Taiwan. Using Frameworks as an example, they work with a Canadian engineering firm in the design and prototype process, but they most certainly would have leaned on their overseas supplier's engineering and expertise as they moved to scale up production beyond what they could do with FTW. Neko has talked about this previously, specifically the improved design and internal butting of tubesets, the bb and lower shock mount construction, and the forging/machining of linkages. Moving production to a frame builder overseas gave them access to capabilities and technology they didn't have previously. The difference between the previous generation and current FW bikes is pretty significant, but they didn't just pick the parts out of a catalog either.
It's a collaborative process, and the engineers and project managers at the factory are the experts when it comes to turning a customers drawings and CAD files into a finished product. They know their machines and processes, they work with the various suppliers that might be involved, and have ultimately seen tens of thousands of frames produced successfully and otherwise.
It makes complete sense for a brand manufacturing frames at scale to work closely with their supplier's engineering and design team. If they've already been collaborating together for years what do they gain from adding another layer and cost to the process? How Transition or similar brand manages this is hard to know, seems like most of the original basis for this discussion was one poster's opinion of their bikes and from there extrapolated how the company operates and who is or is not on staff?
Here’s what I’m trying to get at the Asians in fact are the best manufacturers of anything in the world at the moment so there is no way that I would feel more confident riding a bike made in the USA Canada, or really any other major first world country
what I’m getting at is for example Transition sells, a frame at a premium cost without premium features. And I believe part of that is due to trying to be as cheap as possible, and then also completely ignoring stuff. For example, I just know that their engineer does not ride that often or very hard compared to everybody else who works at that company. I think it is absolutely unfair to sell a frame for $3000 plus with hardware that’s made shitty, tolerance that are all out of place and and other things like that. Having met engineers from other companies like Santa Cruz specialized Norco, etc. Who ride the absolute piss out of the frames that they design and you can tell on a lot of them that some thought was put into some very basic things
I get that was kind of a low cut at Transition. I do think a lot of the people there are wonderful in the bikes they make are sick, but I was just kind of a joke that has a little bit of weight behind it, but in the end, we’re all arguing online and trying to see what the next cool thing that we can spend thousands of dollars on that doesn’t actually make any difference.
This forum at the moment (not actually just poking fun)
This forum at the moment (not actually just poking fun)
Love it!
I'm also both surprised and disappointed that there hasn't been a "make another thread" comment, as someone is usually on top of this 😄
Now for a proper Tech Rumour comment. That new Magura brake looks like a very cosmetic update on the MT7 caliper. I'm guessing they're taking a similar route to Hope with the V4/E4 where the calipers haven't been updated in what, almost a decade, but we're up to Tech 4 on the lever/master cylinder. Does anyone have any further intel on that? Does the new lever provide 10/20/30/40% more power?
‘In-house’ engineers are best close to where the actual building is happening, you know ‘in house’ at the company making the stuff.
Those engineers will have an intimate knowledge of the manufacturing processes, what issues have been solved before, and have been involved with the product from early on. QC is likely conducted by an independent third party (or at least validated).
I feel like a whole load of the ‘but they have to be in America’ is poorly reflected upon racism.
Can we just cut to the chase and pre-emptively ban Dougal? I thought this place was the last safe haven from his bullshit. The schtick of poo-pooing everything on the planet is old as dirt and he ruins every conversation he butts in on.
Doogs, you spend an awful lot of time on forums for someone who claims to be so busy. Go farm downvotes somewhere else.
Can we just cut to the chase and pre-emptively ban Dougal? I thought this place was the last safe haven from his bullshit. The schtick of...
Can we just cut to the chase and pre-emptively ban Dougal? I thought this place was the last safe haven from his bullshit. The schtick of poo-pooing everything on the planet is old as dirt and he ruins every conversation he butts in on.
Doogs, you spend an awful lot of time on forums for someone who claims to be so busy. Go farm downvotes somewhere else.
I have loved vital for its community and often thought about the quality of the discussion compared to how dougal has burnt threads and almost whole sites to the ground other places.
When I saw him posting here the other week I kept an open mind, wondering if he’d read the room.
I guess it’s his choice and the mods choice. If he wrecks some of my favourite long running threads here, and pushes away amazing contributors like Darren from Push, I’ll be really sad. I can see that impacting the ability for vital to have such great discussions with industry people that make their articles and review different to other places.
‘In-house’ engineers are best close to where the actual building is happening, you know ‘in house’ at the company making the stuff. Those engineers will have an...
‘In-house’ engineers are best close to where the actual building is happening, you know ‘in house’ at the company making the stuff.
Those engineers will have an intimate knowledge of the manufacturing processes, what issues have been solved before, and have been involved with the product from early on. QC is likely conducted by an independent third party (or at least validated).
I feel like a whole load of the ‘but they have to be in America’ is poorly reflected upon racism.
Engineers are often specialists. The ones you'd have at a bike company would specialize in design and analysis. Perhaps a company would have a prototyping and testing department, sometimes they wouldn't.
Engineers at a manufacturer could be manufacturing where their job is to translate clients designs into exactly what they can make for the budget allowed, they could be testing and analysis or they could spend their whole time designing new manufacturing plant and equipment.
The whole engineering world is more collaborative than most outside it would ever know. I've had whole conversations with Taiwanese engineers who don't even speak English with both of us drawing sketches and a translator frantically trying to make sense and find words they'd never had to translate before.
What I’m getting at is they claim to be core but are not. They don’t employ a single engineer in the USA. Yes it’s true I’ve met(not gunna name drop) him a few times. For example other brands like Norco have in house engineering done. It’s all good they make cool stuff just can’t stand brands being downright lazy with frames in 2026
the composite engineer is the 12 year old laying up the carbon in a resin fumed factory in cambodia.
Why? do you not like the unwanted attention?
LOL
You made your point and I agreed, no need to keep going on and on about it.
is frameworks a catalog brand then?
engineering consultation is the norm in nearly every industry when it comes to manufacturing something you can’t just buy off the shelf. And the majority of the assembly lines for products on those shelves were designed by engineering consultants.
maybe they are using Taiwan factory engineers these days, but at least at one point transitions carbon engineering consultants were stateside if lift talk is to be believed.
Saying a company isn’t core because Is doesn’t employ a specialist engineer that they’d only need maybe 20% of a FTE role is like Fugazi wasn’t core because they didn’t have a sound tech.
What a crazy false equivalency. Seeking out a boutique engineering consultation firm based in NA vs using your supplier - which one is a cost cutting measure?
I don't think it's a stretch to say Transition is a catalog brand. You'd have to be thick to suggest the same for Frameworks
Does Quest composites Still make Transitions frames? - I believe They do alot of Design and engineering for Frames aswell.
They make Trek and Canyon - they used to have a picture of a transition on the website but not anymore
If Transition is a catalogue brand then almost every brand is aside from hand-made projects would be by your estimates then.
Since when does it matter ultimately if engineering is in house, us based contractors or Taiwanese contractors?
Catalogue implies picking a frame from a pre-designed catalog. Not having a bespoken frame made and engineered for you.
Particularly frames like the Spur, which catalogue did they pick that from?
I certainly wouldn’t consider them catalog. But if I remember right in an early Frameworks video Neko talked about using that strategy for their carbon seat stay. Basically design a part, find a factory, have that factory build a mold and design the laminate, then have finished parts delivered.
The bulk of composites manufacturing knowledge in the bike industry “lives” in Asia where things are being built. I personally have no problem with that, or companies that outsource their engineering either domestically or overseas. Having worked with foreign and domestic suppliers across a few industries the strategy is always “Trust, but Verify” so I was surprised there wasn’t an in-house verify person to give things a sniff test.
This discussion makes me wonder. Does this strategy speak to the current stagnation of bicycle innovation as a whole? There’s been plenty of discussion around how good current bike are and the asymptotic march towards the crab link bike, but are decisions like outsourcing composites engineering, or linkage design hurting innovation? I’m not saying this one decision is the root cause, but rather is it a symptom?
Whistler parking lot 1 reporting in - I just saw @Jason_Schroeder roll past on a very production looking norco DH race bike 🤘
"a very pricey-looking Norco DH race bike"
FYP
Engineering capability in house matters when things go wrong. If the systems are robust enough that nothing goes wrong then marketing type companies can trundle along fine. But when relatively simple things like tolerance errors and parts breakages rear their heads it is often impossible for marketing type companies to even find the root cause, let alone find a working solution.
The soft undercurrent of a few of these post seems to imply anything made in Asia or engineered by Asians is somehow of lower quality. Engineering really has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. You can find high and low quality products everywhere in the world. Quality is a reflection of the decisions made by the brand not the the citizenship or location of the engineers.
If you are manufacturing at scale at some point you'll need to work with a factory and their engineers. And you'd have a hard time finding a greater concentration of institutional knowledge and engineering expertise in frame manufacturing, in any material, than in the area surrounding Taichung, Taiwan. Using Frameworks as an example, they work with a Canadian engineering firm in the design and prototype process, but they most certainly would have leaned on their overseas supplier's engineering and expertise as they moved to scale up production beyond what they could do with FTW. Neko has talked about this previously, specifically the improved design and internal butting of tubesets, the bb and lower shock mount construction, and the forging/machining of linkages. Moving production to a frame builder overseas gave them access to capabilities and technology they didn't have previously. The difference between the previous generation and current FW bikes is pretty significant, but they didn't just pick the parts out of a catalog either.
It's a collaborative process, and the engineers and project managers at the factory are the experts when it comes to turning a customers drawings and CAD files into a finished product. They know their machines and processes, they work with the various suppliers that might be involved, and have ultimately seen tens of thousands of frames produced successfully and otherwise.
It makes complete sense for a brand manufacturing frames at scale to work closely with their supplier's engineering and design team. If they've already been collaborating together for years what do they gain from adding another layer and cost to the process? How Transition or similar brand manages this is hard to know, seems like most of the original basis for this discussion was one poster's opinion of their bikes and from there extrapolated how the company operates and who is or is not on staff?
That's an awfully confident statement from someone with little or no experience operating a company with large scale outsourced production, overseas or domestic. Care to share a factual example? Also what and who is a 'marketing type brand?'
Last I checked the bike industry is collection of honest brands, riders, and designers trying their best to make products of value or improve the experience and enjoyment of other cyclists. Of course they also have to market and advertise if they want to stay in business, but both realities can coexist.
You're the NZ distributer for Hayes/Manitou and operate a suspension tuning company, and market yourself by going on forums and repeatedly being condescending and credulous towards everything and anyone else that doesn't benefit your own business or align with you personal preference.
It's really interesting how many people get their back up as soon as you mention Engineering. I'm a Suspension Engineer. My company only sells parts I like. Across all brands. Because why would we sell or support stuff we didn't? I find problems and some people get really upset when they've bought those problems. It's almost religious.
DVO was a great example of a marketing company.
I don’t think the discussion was meant to deride Asian engineering or manufacturing. I fully agree with you that Taiwan and China are better at manufacturing bikes than western countries. My thought is as a bike designer how do you make products better when you don’t have a firm grasp on how they are made? That’s what I think a company has to gain from bringing additional depth of knowledge in house. Does knowing more of the nitty gritty allow those designers to push boundaries a bit further?
This forum at the moment (not actually just poking fun)
Noted. So as the in-house suspension engineer for your own small suspension tuning company, what expertise and experience are you drawing on to make such a broad, declarative assessment about large scale manufacturing and production and the brands that rely on it?
Please spare us your tired feud with DVO. You've already poisoned the well in multiple other forums with that.
Anyway, while I'm happy to share my own narrow experience with Taiwan based manufacturing I won't proclaim to be an expert or an authority, just a sample size of one.
But I've made it a rule to show myself the door of any forum post Dougal enters.
Plenty of experience and expertise. I deal with this stuff and the resulting problems daily. Because I'm in it deeper I find problems that most people never know exist. But that's okay.
You asked for an example. I gave one.
This thread used to be good.
Low-key DVO is kind of the exact opposite where they don’t have a good relationship or didn’t have a great relationship with their manufacture/parts supplier because DVO did have a lot of really good stuff in their suspension. It was just built really poorly and had a fuck ton of tolerance issues and seal issues and stuff like that to be honest when the diamond came out, it was far superior to the 36 or the lyric of that time
Here’s what I’m trying to get at the Asians in fact are the best manufacturers of anything in the world at the moment so there is no way that I would feel more confident riding a bike made in the USA Canada, or really any other major first world country
what I’m getting at is for example Transition sells, a frame at a premium cost without premium features. And I believe part of that is due to trying to be as cheap as possible, and then also completely ignoring stuff. For example, I just know that their engineer does not ride that often or very hard compared to everybody else who works at that company. I think it is absolutely unfair to sell a frame for $3000 plus with hardware that’s made shitty, tolerance that are all out of place and and other things like that. Having met engineers from other companies like Santa Cruz specialized Norco, etc. Who ride the absolute piss out of the frames that they design and you can tell on a lot of them that some thought was put into some very basic things
I get that was kind of a low cut at Transition. I do think a lot of the people there are wonderful in the bikes they make are sick, but I was just kind of a joke that has a little bit of weight behind it, but in the end, we’re all arguing online and trying to see what the next cool thing that we can spend thousands of dollars on that doesn’t actually make any difference.
Love it!
I'm also both surprised and disappointed that there hasn't been a "make another thread" comment, as someone is usually on top of this 😄
Now for a proper Tech Rumour comment. That new Magura brake looks like a very cosmetic update on the MT7 caliper. I'm guessing they're taking a similar route to Hope with the V4/E4 where the calipers haven't been updated in what, almost a decade, but we're up to Tech 4 on the lever/master cylinder. Does anyone have any further intel on that? Does the new lever provide 10/20/30/40% more power?
‘In-house’ engineers are best close to where the actual building is happening, you know ‘in house’ at the company making the stuff.
Those engineers will have an intimate knowledge of the manufacturing processes, what issues have been solved before, and have been involved with the product from early on. QC is likely conducted by an independent third party (or at least validated).
I feel like a whole load of the ‘but they have to be in America’ is poorly reflected upon racism.
Can we just cut to the chase and pre-emptively ban Dougal? I thought this place was the last safe haven from his bullshit. The schtick of poo-pooing everything on the planet is old as dirt and he ruins every conversation he butts in on.
Doogs, you spend an awful lot of time on forums for someone who claims to be so busy. Go farm downvotes somewhere else.
+1 😬
I have loved vital for its community and often thought about the quality of the discussion compared to how dougal has burnt threads and almost whole sites to the ground other places.
When I saw him posting here the other week I kept an open mind, wondering if he’d read the room.
I guess it’s his choice and the mods choice. If he wrecks some of my favourite long running threads here, and pushes away amazing contributors like Darren from Push, I’ll be really sad. I can see that impacting the ability for vital to have such great discussions with industry people that make their articles and review different to other places.
Engineers are often specialists. The ones you'd have at a bike company would specialize in design and analysis. Perhaps a company would have a prototyping and testing department, sometimes they wouldn't.
Engineers at a manufacturer could be manufacturing where their job is to translate clients designs into exactly what they can make for the budget allowed, they could be testing and analysis or they could spend their whole time designing new manufacturing plant and equipment.
The whole engineering world is more collaborative than most outside it would ever know. I've had whole conversations with Taiwanese engineers who don't even speak English with both of us drawing sketches and a translator frantically trying to make sense and find words they'd never had to translate before.
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