What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for...
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
Thanks, Mx
I think it’s just a reference to the fact that Ari has multiple suspension layouts with different aesthetics
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for...
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
Two Fridays ago I saw a Fezzari crew pedaling up the American fork canyon road (alpine loop) at 6am with a bunch of camera gear. I thought they were all on the carbon Timp Peak, but I guess at least one of them was on this thing.
Base build for only $800 more than frameset... yeesh. Gotta wonder how cheap those parts are.
A lot of the cost difference on the frame set vs complete sport build is the Super Deluxe Ultimate vs the Suntour Edge shock. There's almost a $400 difference here. If the frameset shipped with the same shock as the Sport build, it would drop the price a good amount. The frameset being spec'd with the higher end shock because most people buying a frameset are looking for something a bit nicer.
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for...
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time...
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time. Unfortunately the interface sucked and they were prone to connectivity issues among other things.
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lol
I figured out a reset of the battery fixes it, the arm of my riding glasses is the perfect tool to slide between my frame and battery and get the button. Been in the middle of nowhere makes you do Macguyver type shit.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Thank you for taking your time and explaining this, honestly!
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time...
Norco had the different size battery option a couple years ago. 540, 720 and 900 watt hour sizes. They were using the EP8 at the time. Unfortunately the interface sucked and they were prone to connectivity issues among other things.
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lolI figured out a reset of the battery fixes it...
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lol
I figured out a reset of the battery fixes it, the arm of my riding glasses is the perfect tool to slide between my frame and battery and get the button. Been in the middle of nowhere makes you do Macguyver type shit.
What's funny is it's not like the fact that those batteries are removable is what makes them unreliable. I had the Sight VLT gen before yours with the fixed battery and it had battery connectivity issues too! For this reason I'm glad Bosch forces companies to use their electrical components/batteries only.
Sometime back Transition had their Deore CF Smuggler builds on sale, for LESS than the frame only option. They were willing to pay you $300 to take...
Sometime back Transition had their Deore CF Smuggler builds on sale, for LESS than the frame only option.
They were willing to pay you $300 to take the sh**ty parts off their hands. JK, Deore drivetrain in particular is very good, much better than GX.
They weren’t paying you, the frames just were/are marked up that much. I’d guess back then transition weren’t paying more than $1000 per frame w/ shock
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a...
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
Even more reason that motor mounts should be standardized and allow the consumer a motor only option for upgrading. Less waste more customization. Frame only and motor should be way more common. But I get it, that eats into companies profits.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so...
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a...
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a...
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
I have a feeling it’s because the next generation of stuff that’s coming is too soon to make the money back on molds.
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.I...
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
Crestline uses prototype molds. So he literally can’t make more than like 200 before they wear out IIRC
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.I...
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
Crestline uses prototype molds. So he literally can’t make more than like 200 before they wear out IIRC
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus are much faster and easier to machine, whereas full production run molds are steel and are much more difficult, time consuming, and therefore costly to produce.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in...
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the forum! That seems like a well thought out and competitively priced bike!
I was just looking at the specs and FAQ on the Ari website and I see there is a high/low setting. Is that achieved through the use of different chips on the lower shock mount? I see the chips are flat on the bottom, so they can't simply be flipped 180 degrees.
Any idea on what these various builds will weigh, or if that info isn't available yet, what the frame will weigh?
I see it is mentioned in the FAQ that the battery can be removed without removing the motor. Any idea about how long this would take if one wanted to do it in the trailhead parking lot to extend ride time?
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.I...
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus...
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus are much faster and easier to machine, whereas full production run molds are steel and are much more difficult, time consuming, and therefore costly to produce.
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum...
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything tech out of China lately isn’t competing on the same terms as everyone else is (discounting the labor cost differences). Could be wrong, it’s not like e-bike money compares with electric car money.
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum...
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything...
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything tech out of China lately isn’t competing on the same terms as everyone else is (discounting the labor cost differences). Could be wrong, it’s not like e-bike money compares with electric car money.
Give the podcast that Jeff and Charlie did on DJI/ Amflow/ Avinox a listen... The DJI money is pretty damn big...
Base build for only $800 more than frameset... yeesh. Gotta wonder how cheap those parts are.
Or how overpriced the frameset is
A Meta Power Avinox is $1700 more and I'd trust their qc a whole lot less.
Frame only pricing is a psyop to make building your own bike less appealing/practical so you suck it up and buy the full build
You're probably right, but there's no way the parts for a full build cost 800 fun tokens, so there's a disparity one way or another.
What is the relevance of having a ”vertical shock”? Why does it matter?
At some point I have heard a newbie say that he is looking for a bike and he had found a Santa Cruz, but he didn't like it because it has no ”vertical shock”. I laughed and explained to him that it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things for a shock to be ”vertical”. Now I see this on my favorite MTB site.
Is it a Pinkbike-ish ”wAtEr bOtTLe sPaCe iS sOmEtHiNG i LiVe aNd diE fOr”?
Thanks,
Mx
I think it’s just a reference to the fact that Ari has multiple suspension layouts with different aesthetics
Exactly this.
Two Fridays ago I saw a Fezzari crew pedaling up the American fork canyon road (alpine loop) at 6am with a bunch of camera gear. I thought they were all on the carbon Timp Peak, but I guess at least one of them was on this thing.
A lot of the cost difference on the frame set vs complete sport build is the Super Deluxe Ultimate vs the Suntour Edge shock. There's almost a $400 difference here. If the frameset shipped with the same shock as the Sport build, it would drop the price a good amount. The frameset being spec'd with the higher end shock because most people buying a frameset are looking for something a bit nicer.
I can add a bit more being on the design team for this bike. We can do a better job at calling out the "why" in the short press release. There will be upcoming videos talking about it, but here it is from the design side of things.
As bike designers we are constrained by the shape of the motor and battery. We can't change these designs. Riders are wanting bigger batteries (800wh in this bikes case). We also have great demand to fit more shocks, from inline, to the largest enduro and coil shocks. We have to have fork crown and tire bottom out clearance on the underside of the downtube. We (internally) have a design demand to have low stand over heights and long dropper insertions. We also like to be able to fit water bottles and be prepared for any range extenders to sit inside the front triangle if they come to market. We have to have batteries that are easily removable (I.e. not having to drop the motor to remove the battery). We also want the kinematics to behave like a real mountain bike and not just have a motor with wheels and call it an e-bike. We then have to fit all of this across 4 to 5 sizes of frames. We can design for any one of these parameters pretty easily. But when we combine all of these together, it adds restrictions or compromises to some areas. E-bikes have the most constraints given the fixed design nature of the motor, battery, charge ports, etc. It's our job as designers and product managers to bring to life the very best riding characteristic and blanche all of these variables into the best riding product at a certain price point. This vertical shock design allows us to meet all the parameters listed above and have the bike ride in a way we want it to, all while making it easier to work on at home. I hope that adds a bit for you.
I'm riding one of these bikes now, fantastic until the battery shits itself 40km from home lol
I figured out a reset of the battery fixes it, the arm of my riding glasses is the perfect tool to slide between my frame and battery and get the button. Been in the middle of nowhere makes you do Macguyver type shit.
Thank you for taking your time and explaining this, honestly!
Mx
Nice to see another company giving us the choice between 600wh and 800wh instead of trying to gaslight us into a 600wh battery handling oh so much better. (a bike with a dead battery doesn't handle very well 😁) I think the current free range extender promo Santa Cruz is running is a direct response to this and they and Transition are eating crow right now for doing 600wh only.
Can you reveal anything as to why the bike is aluminum only for now? Did you guys get caught off guard and need an Avinox bike ASAP? Is it to hit that $5k price point? I've noticed a bunch of brands Avinox bikes are alloy only (Ari, Propain, YT) which bucks the industry trend of either releasing carbon first, or carbon + aluminum at the same time.
What's funny is it's not like the fact that those batteries are removable is what makes them unreliable. I had the Sight VLT gen before yours with the fixed battery and it had battery connectivity issues too! For this reason I'm glad Bosch forces companies to use their electrical components/batteries only.
Sometime back Transition had their Deore CF Smuggler builds on sale, for LESS than the frame only option.
They were willing to pay you $300 to take the sh**ty parts off their hands. JK, Deore drivetrain in particular is very good, much better than GX.
They weren’t paying you, the frames just were/are marked up that much. I’d guess back then transition weren’t paying more than $1000 per frame w/ shock
I have a feeling this alloy frame trend will continue. It's really hard to get an ROI on a size run of carbon molds if a company cannot build and sell them for 3-4 years when the motor tech is obsolete in less than 2 years. As you pointed out SC and Transition are eating crow, likely to being locked into a long production run.
Even more reason that motor mounts should be standardized and allow the consumer a motor only option for upgrading. Less waste more customization. Frame only and motor should be way more common. But I get it, that eats into companies profits.
I don't believe that. Crestline spits out 99 CF frames and then makes changes.
Pivot, Transition, Norco, etc makes nearly identical bikes, but with different motor systems.
I get that they charge a premium for them and that helps, but still.
I have a feeling it’s because the next generation of stuff that’s coming is too soon to make the money back on molds.
Crestline uses prototype molds. So he literally can’t make more than like 200 before they wear out IIRC
Yeah, I am not sure of the exact details and other possible differences, but my understanding is that prototype molds are made from aluminum and thus are much faster and easier to machine, whereas full production run molds are steel and are much more difficult, time consuming, and therefore costly to produce.
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the forum! That seems like a well thought out and competitively priced bike!
I was just looking at the specs and FAQ on the Ari website and I see there is a high/low setting. Is that achieved through the use of different chips on the lower shock mount? I see the chips are flat on the bottom, so they can't simply be flipped 180 degrees.
Any idea on what these various builds will weigh, or if that info isn't available yet, what the frame will weigh?
I see it is mentioned in the FAQ that the battery can be removed without removing the motor. Any idea about how long this would take if one wanted to do it in the trailhead parking lot to extend ride time?
Not to derail the thread but does anyone have any insight into innovations in carbon moulds like this? I had no idea you could use aluminum to lower cost but it would wear out super quick. Anything being done to bring down the cost of the longer term moulds the bike industry uses? Seems like the Chinese brands have made advances here with how they’re making cheap carbon that’s actually good. It’s been happening in road for a few years and now we’re seeing it in MTB with Amflow’s carbon bikes costing the same as everyone else’s aluminum ones.
I’m not sure that Amflow isn’t being propped up by the government to keep prices down. BYD does it with cars so I just assume everything tech out of China lately isn’t competing on the same terms as everyone else is (discounting the labor cost differences). Could be wrong, it’s not like e-bike money compares with electric car money.
Give the podcast that Jeff and Charlie did on DJI/ Amflow/ Avinox a listen... The DJI money is pretty damn big...
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