Watch this yesterday and reminded me of the forgotten “why” gearboxes won’t be a serious contender until they can figure out how to shift under heavy...
Watch this yesterday and reminded me of the forgotten “why” gearboxes won’t be a serious contender until they can figure out how to shift under heavy load. The need to decrease power in order for the gearbox to shift will turn too many people off, especially on a pedal bike. Makes what Leif Rodgers is accomplishing at the ews even more impressive. Have to wonder if there is seconds lost after 30+ minutes of racing from him adjusting his power in order to shift.
Does anyone know if there is info out there on what wattage output the pinion gearbox system is limited to shifting under?
You’re not the first to assert Leaf is winning in spite of the gearbox… instead of wondering if the benefits to unsprung mass might outweigh the...
You’re not the first to assert Leaf is winning in spite of the gearbox… instead of wondering if the benefits to unsprung mass might outweigh the loss of efficiency. Is it that hard to believe Lief might prefer the Vanth? Last I heard he demoed the bike before signing with Priority. They didn’t hold a gun to his head and make him ride the bike… it’s very possible he could’ve found another sponsor if he wanted…
Let’s not forget Enduro is timed only on the downhill. And there’s clearly an unquantifiable benefit to having weight under the BB…as demonstrated by numerous World Cup riders strapping weights there.
I’ll be running a derailleur for the near future. But hope the gearbox keeps improving and become more mainstream. Just find it odd how many focus on the negatives of the gearbox… or assume it’s a worse system without having raced one.
I don’t disagree that the benefits could outweigh the negatives for Lief. Everyone has a preference and it could suit him best. Just wondering is there is any seconds lost due to having to drop power in order to shift in some scenarios. Ews racers pedal way more than the average rider on these downhill stages, especially on the tight technical ones. Being able to put down 600watts and shifting out of a corner vs say 150watts(don’t know actual watts to shift a pinion) can add up on a long tight stage. If that ever changes to not let up power, gear box bikes could potentially take off imo. I’m all for it when it does
Watch this yesterday and reminded me of the forgotten “why” gearboxes won’t be a serious contender until they can figure out how to shift under heavy...
Watch this yesterday and reminded me of the forgotten “why” gearboxes won’t be a serious contender until they can figure out how to shift under heavy load. The need to decrease power in order for the gearbox to shift will turn too many people off, especially on a pedal bike. Makes what Leif Rodgers is accomplishing at the ews even more impressive. Have to wonder if there is seconds lost after 30+ minutes of racing from him adjusting his power in order to shift.
Does anyone know if there is info out there on what wattage output the pinion gearbox system is limited to shifting under?
How often is shifting under load a result of shifting too late? With a gearbox you’re able to shift at any other time. It may open...
How often is shifting under load a result of shifting too late? With a gearbox you’re able to shift at any other time. It may open more shifting windows than it closes
Totally agree. You adapt to a different kind of riding/shifting. There’s a lot of climb senerios that this would be a problem like mentioned in the video and be a turn off to the average rider. Pros and cons with every option but feel like it’s a forgotten con to gearboxes.
When I first watched the video a few days ago (I refrained from posting here, since some people were getting agitated by all the GB talk), my two takaways were that a). they were happy that someone finally made a frame with a GB that didn't suck, which seemed more about the bike, and less about the GB, and b). they weren't happy with the shifting under load issue.
I'm also curious about the second one. On my XX1 Eagle gear, there is still a reasonable shifting-under-load limit. I haven't been watching the power meter when I'm in those situations, but I really doubt I ever shift at over 300 Watts. Possibly a single gear out of desperation in the middle of a climb, but I still kind of automatically accelerate slightly before the shift and ease up during the shift. When I'm trying to dump 2 or 3 gears quickly, I'm definitely at lower power. Perhaps T-Type systems allow for a bit more, and I guess if I was in a race, and willing to sacrifice longevity, I might push a bit higher, but I can't imagine shifting at 600W.
As Trocko said, there's probably a learning curve with GBs, just as there was when we started riding with DRs in the dirt many decades ago. For enduro, perhaps the ability to shift several gears without pedaling to reduce the chances of a pedal strike, in preparation for something coming up ahead, is worth more than a power constraint during shifting.
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice.
As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly line they shift it with an external servo motor under full load without problems.
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice. As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly...
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice.
As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly line they shift it with an external servo motor under full load without problems.
Interesting. Is there anything online about this? Would be curious if there’s anything more in depth about power limit while shifting
I’ve been riding a 9sp SmartShift Kavenz G2 set up as a 180/180 superenduro or 200/200 park bike for the past few seasons. There’s definitely a learning curve getting used to shifting slightly differently, and being able to shift while coasting and such. When I ride it consistently everything is fine, if I’m coming off a long period of not riding that bike it’ll take me a ride or two to get used to it again. Shifts to harder gears will happen under full power, it’s just easier gears that can be delayed if you don’t let up slightly.
I enjoy the gearbox bike a lot, and have pedaled big days and smashed out a ton of park laps on it with no issues. The centered weight and suspension feel is awesome. I have a normal Kavenz too and prefer the gearbox for my use case (bike park and gnarly trail riding) - I keep it set up as a lighter 160/160 trail/enduro. I probably wouldn’t choose it for my only bike if I wanted to pedal a bunch but I’m lucky enough to have other traditional bikes for when I want to be a bit more efficient. Can’t wait for gearbox e-bikes to arrive, I regularly smash derailleurs on that one.
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice. As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly...
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice.
As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly line they shift it with an external servo motor under full load without problems.
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice. As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly...
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice.
As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly line they shift it with an external servo motor under full load without problems.
Interesting. Is there anything online about this? Would be curious if there’s anything more in depth about power limit while shifting
Yeah, I recall hearing the same thing, several years ago, when the only shifter option was a twist shifter. Supposedly the gearbox could handle power shifts, and it was just that the shifter couldn't generate enough force. That was before the electronic shifting became an option, and I'd thought they promised that once the electronic arrived, you could shift at full power, but perhaps the servo motors that the ended up using weren't powerful enough to get the shift to complete (unlike the servos that they use for assembly line testing).
I've heard rumours of an an Ibis HD7 this year from my LBS, and just noticed that the Ibis Ripmo & Ripley have had their build specs updated with the new deore groupset yet the HD6 hasn't..
Long time reader, first time poster. I've heard rumours of an an Ibis HD7 this year from my LBS, and just noticed that the Ibis Ripmo &...
Long time reader, first time poster.
I've heard rumours of an an Ibis HD7 this year from my LBS, and just noticed that the Ibis Ripmo & Ripley have had their build specs updated with the new deore groupset yet the HD6 hasn't..
I’ve heard of a longer travel 29er which I’d assume would be the updated HD since ibis just uses flip chips for mullet now. Not sure on timeline though. I’ve also been meaning to message Jank components if they have tried long stroking the ripmo with their long chainstay links. Jumping to 65 stroke should give a ripmo close to 162mm travel.
Any intel on Dunlop tires? Looks like it passed a couple of months, we are mid season and still nothing on the market. Almost too suspicious like if they went back to drawing board or whatever.
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice. As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly...
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice.
As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly line they shift it with an external servo motor under full load without problems.
Interesting. Is there anything online about this? Would be curious if there’s anything more in depth about power limit while shifting
I think it was mentioned a few years ago in a Pinion equipped bike review on Pinkbike. That's all I remember but this was specifically mentioned. Also this was in the days of gripshift only, before they made the electronic shifting option.
@TheKaiser mentioned the same thing. As I remember it (or as I expect to be) their EOL testing servo motor is probably in the range of Nm, which you can't package in the smartshift mechanism. If I remember correctly there's an allen interface in the middle, maybe it would be possible to implement something like a suicide shifter and shift under full load? 🙂
Also as @ZAKBROWN! mentions it's only shifting to easier gears that's the problem as the mechanism is preloaded. If you let up on the pedals, the mechanism gets released easier. Under power you just need to overcome the binding force to be able to shift. That's where the issue comes from. Going to a harder gear you can push the mechanism out to engage and the harder gear will pull the lighter gear pair off the mechanism and release it that way.
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice. As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly...
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice.
As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly line they shift it with an external servo motor under full load without problems.
I think it was mentioned a few years ago in a Pinion equipped bike review on Pinkbike. That's all I remember but this was specifically mentioned...
I think it was mentioned a few years ago in a Pinion equipped bike review on Pinkbike. That's all I remember but this was specifically mentioned. Also this was in the days of gripshift only, before they made the electronic shifting option.
@TheKaiser mentioned the same thing. As I remember it (or as I expect to be) their EOL testing servo motor is probably in the range of Nm, which you can't package in the smartshift mechanism. If I remember correctly there's an allen interface in the middle, maybe it would be possible to implement something like a suicide shifter and shift under full load? 🙂
Also as @ZAKBROWN! mentions it's only shifting to easier gears that's the problem as the mechanism is preloaded. If you let up on the pedals, the mechanism gets released easier. Under power you just need to overcome the binding force to be able to shift. That's where the issue comes from. Going to a harder gear you can push the mechanism out to engage and the harder gear will pull the lighter gear pair off the mechanism and release it that way.
It sounds like as another user stated, it takes a moment to get used to. This makes me think its nothing more than those that cry and moan about T Type taking its time on its shifts (dont remember why it does that). If its something you can subconsciously learn... then sign me up, but with a chain...
I don’t disagree that the benefits could outweigh the negatives for Lief. Everyone has a preference and it could suit him best. Just wondering is there...
I don’t disagree that the benefits could outweigh the negatives for Lief. Everyone has a preference and it could suit him best. Just wondering is there is any seconds lost due to having to drop power in order to shift in some scenarios. Ews racers pedal way more than the average rider on these downhill stages, especially on the tight technical ones. Being able to put down 600watts and shifting out of a corner vs say 150watts(don’t know actual watts to shift a pinion) can add up on a long tight stage. If that ever changes to not let up power, gear box bikes could potentially take off imo. I’m all for it when it does
The point is you don't need to shift out of a corner, you shift while coasting beforehand
Yeah, I recall hearing the same thing, several years ago, when the only shifter option was a twist shifter. Supposedly the gearbox could handle power shifts...
Yeah, I recall hearing the same thing, several years ago, when the only shifter option was a twist shifter. Supposedly the gearbox could handle power shifts, and it was just that the shifter couldn't generate enough force. That was before the electronic shifting became an option, and I'd thought they promised that once the electronic arrived, you could shift at full power, but perhaps the servo motors that the ended up using weren't powerful enough to get the shift to complete (unlike the servos that they use for assembly line testing).
“Full power” can mean wildly different things. 600W while sitting isn’t anything like a 1200W sprint out of the saddle.
So many bones to pick with that vid. The outgoing Zerode Katipo is very capable and aside from the seat tube angle I have very few complaints. It's a pleasure to ride. Much more satisfying ride quality than my SB Yetis. It is an enduro bike and they all climb tolerably at best in general race trim with the ethos of get it to the top, make it ride really fast on the way down. I have only washed the belt and lubed the idler in my season and a half of riding. No issues...
With a cable grip shift (or DIY trigger) gearbox setup you can feel the system release pressure and permit a shift as you let off the pedal torque. I kind of preload the shifter and feel it jump into place. An then when it clicks in, it's in. No tickticktick smack bang like from a derailleur, especially in low gears where a big cog jump would be needed. The low gear instant indexing is actually where I appreciate the Pinion the most. Want to go from 5th to 2nd? Just time a pedal stroke letup and twist or do it while coasting. Done.
I have a handful of races on my Katipo. Being able to change gears without needing a risky pedal stroke to set in the new gear is an advantage IF you have the skill and foresight to get it right. I have been burned on an unforseen increase in climb grade while sprinting, but that was on me for try to "SS legs" in too high of a gear in the first place.
Gearbox is a hard sell but if you take the dive with an open mind it's a lot of fun, quiet and low maintenance for general enduro riding. 32" wheels are probably a worse compromise (4).
It sounds like as another user stated, it takes a moment to get used to. This makes me think its nothing more than those that cry...
It sounds like as another user stated, it takes a moment to get used to. This makes me think its nothing more than those that cry and moan about T Type taking its time on its shifts (dont remember why it does that). If its something you can subconsciously learn... then sign me up, but with a chain...
Yeah, the T type delay thing is often referenced in cycling media, as if it is super high tech, but they never really explain what the tech is.
As far as I can tell, when T type first came out, it would only shift 1 gear at a time, so in order to do 2 shifts required 2 clicks of the shifter. If you click the button several times very fast, the firmware would pause to let the chain fully engage in each intermediate gear, before doing the next shift.
In addition, my understanding is that there are fewer shift gates on the cassette, so you might need to wait a greater fraction of a wheel revolution before the gate comes up. The cassette teeth are narrow wide too, so they grip the chain more firmly, and the derailleur servo power is lowered such that it will not force the chain over at any other point than the next available shift gate.
Due to complaints from users, Sram came out with firmware that reduced the delay 15%, whatever that means, and also allows multi shifts if you hold the button down, but I think it will still pause on the intermediate gears, which seems to be the big time suck, but people seem to have gotten used to it, as you said.
It sounds like as another user stated, it takes a moment to get used to. This makes me think its nothing more than those that cry...
It sounds like as another user stated, it takes a moment to get used to. This makes me think its nothing more than those that cry and moan about T Type taking its time on its shifts (dont remember why it does that). If its something you can subconsciously learn... then sign me up, but with a chain...
Yeah, the T type delay thing is often referenced in cycling media, as if it is super high tech, but they never really explain what the...
Yeah, the T type delay thing is often referenced in cycling media, as if it is super high tech, but they never really explain what the tech is.
As far as I can tell, when T type first came out, it would only shift 1 gear at a time, so in order to do 2 shifts required 2 clicks of the shifter. If you click the button several times very fast, the firmware would pause to let the chain fully engage in each intermediate gear, before doing the next shift.
In addition, my understanding is that there are fewer shift gates on the cassette, so you might need to wait a greater fraction of a wheel revolution before the gate comes up. The cassette teeth are narrow wide too, so they grip the chain more firmly, and the derailleur servo power is lowered such that it will not force the chain over at any other point than the next available shift gate.
Due to complaints from users, Sram came out with firmware that reduced the delay 15%, whatever that means, and also allows multi shifts if you hold the button down, but I think it will still pause on the intermediate gears, which seems to be the big time suck, but people seem to have gotten used to it, as you said.
"It shifts perfectly under load every time because we decide when to let it shift, not you! We also hope you like input buffering, hammer that button and it will shift as many times as you pressed it, even it it keeps shifting for a while after you've stopped pushing the button!"
In all honestly, the slow shifting and delay of transmission feels the exact same as the smaller size gaps on srams 2x road drivetrains. "we couldn't make a front derailleur that could handle the 16 tooth jump so we made the gap between the Chainrings only 11 teeth! Now it shifts well! Our rear derailleurs couldn't shift very well under load so we made it so they will only shift in very specific spots on the cassette and put a delay in the shifting to make it work!"
They're minor complaints and sram on the road and mountain do work really well, but it's funny when you notice it.
Bringing back around to gearboxes, I'm confident that people can and would learn how to let off the pedals to shift better like we all know how to do with derailleurs.
So many bones to pick with that vid. The outgoing Zerode Katipo is very capable and aside from the seat tube angle I have very few...
So many bones to pick with that vid. The outgoing Zerode Katipo is very capable and aside from the seat tube angle I have very few complaints. It's a pleasure to ride. Much more satisfying ride quality than my SB Yetis. It is an enduro bike and they all climb tolerably at best in general race trim with the ethos of get it to the top, make it ride really fast on the way down. I have only washed the belt and lubed the idler in my season and a half of riding. No issues...
With a cable grip shift (or DIY trigger) gearbox setup you can feel the system release pressure and permit a shift as you let off the pedal torque. I kind of preload the shifter and feel it jump into place. An then when it clicks in, it's in. No tickticktick smack bang like from a derailleur, especially in low gears where a big cog jump would be needed. The low gear instant indexing is actually where I appreciate the Pinion the most. Want to go from 5th to 2nd? Just time a pedal stroke letup and twist or do it while coasting. Done.
I have a handful of races on my Katipo. Being able to change gears without needing a risky pedal stroke to set in the new gear is an advantage IF you have the skill and foresight to get it right. I have been burned on an unforseen increase in climb grade while sprinting, but that was on me for try to "SS legs" in too high of a gear in the first place.
Gearbox is a hard sell but if you take the dive with an open mind it's a lot of fun, quiet and low maintenance for general enduro riding. 32" wheels are probably a worse compromise (4).
I loved my Taniwha till I tried more updated geometry 😄 As much as I love the idea of the Smart Shift, I feel like it actually neuters the bike with the slower shifts. The gripshift is so quick and has such a short throw, so you can grab so many gears. The amount of time you actually need to back off the pedals to shift is so short. You're only limited by how quickly you can twist the thing. I was really disappointed with the Cinq shifters. I have video somewhere. If I remember right, I could get through all 12 gears with the gripshift in just over a second, not that you'd need to, while the Cinq was almost 1 second per gear
So many bones to pick with that vid. The outgoing Zerode Katipo is very capable and aside from the seat tube angle I have very few...
So many bones to pick with that vid. The outgoing Zerode Katipo is very capable and aside from the seat tube angle I have very few complaints. It's a pleasure to ride. Much more satisfying ride quality than my SB Yetis. It is an enduro bike and they all climb tolerably at best in general race trim with the ethos of get it to the top, make it ride really fast on the way down. I have only washed the belt and lubed the idler in my season and a half of riding. No issues...
With a cable grip shift (or DIY trigger) gearbox setup you can feel the system release pressure and permit a shift as you let off the pedal torque. I kind of preload the shifter and feel it jump into place. An then when it clicks in, it's in. No tickticktick smack bang like from a derailleur, especially in low gears where a big cog jump would be needed. The low gear instant indexing is actually where I appreciate the Pinion the most. Want to go from 5th to 2nd? Just time a pedal stroke letup and twist or do it while coasting. Done.
I have a handful of races on my Katipo. Being able to change gears without needing a risky pedal stroke to set in the new gear is an advantage IF you have the skill and foresight to get it right. I have been burned on an unforseen increase in climb grade while sprinting, but that was on me for try to "SS legs" in too high of a gear in the first place.
Gearbox is a hard sell but if you take the dive with an open mind it's a lot of fun, quiet and low maintenance for general enduro riding. 32" wheels are probably a worse compromise (4).
I loved my Taniwha till I tried more updated geometry 😄 As much as I love the idea of the Smart Shift, I feel like it actually...
I loved my Taniwha till I tried more updated geometry 😄 As much as I love the idea of the Smart Shift, I feel like it actually neuters the bike with the slower shifts. The gripshift is so quick and has such a short throw, so you can grab so many gears. The amount of time you actually need to back off the pedals to shift is so short. You're only limited by how quickly you can twist the thing. I was really disappointed with the Cinq shifters. I have video somewhere. If I remember right, I could get through all 12 gears with the gripshift in just over a second, not that you'd need to, while the Cinq was almost 1 second per gear
I also loved my Taniwha but could not go back to it after trying a newer bike because of the geo. That side I was a massive fan of the pinion and will for sure have another one some day. I think the shifting gets blown out of proportion. I would just time my shifts when my pedals were are 12 and 6 position and ease up a bit on the power and you could shift no problem. I was very against the grip shift at first but after some time on it I liked it.
I think the same review (tanihwa review maybe?) that mentioned the shifting with a servo motor under full power on the assembly line also mentioned that you could preload a shift and it would click in when you let off the pedals. That doesn't work with electronic shifting though, just like regular shifting, with a cable you have a lot more feel.
As gor spacing out or delaying shifts, again it's like letting up on the pedals, it's just good practice. Running a Garbaruk cassette this becomes more important as it's not as tolerant to multi shifts to easier gears as stock Sram Eagle cassettes are, but still, letting the chain wrap around a ring at least a little before shifting again makes sense and lowers the stress on the chain. I think a big reason we have the ability to shift 3 or 4 gears on trigger shifters is marketing and we'd be better off having only single click ebikeesque trigger shifters.
Long time reader, first time poster. I've heard rumours of an an Ibis HD7 this year from my LBS, and just noticed that the Ibis Ripmo &...
Long time reader, first time poster.
I've heard rumours of an an Ibis HD7 this year from my LBS, and just noticed that the Ibis Ripmo & Ripley have had their build specs updated with the new deore groupset yet the HD6 hasn't..
I’ve heard of a longer travel 29er which I’d assume would be the updated HD since ibis just uses flip chips for mullet now. Not sure...
I’ve heard of a longer travel 29er which I’d assume would be the updated HD since ibis just uses flip chips for mullet now. Not sure on timeline though. I’ve also been meaning to message Jank components if they have tried long stroking the ripmo with their long chainstay links. Jumping to 65 stroke should give a ripmo close to 162mm travel.
Updated HD6 seems like the most logical step for Ibis considering they've refreshed the Ripmo/Ripley, Ripley SL, and OSO in the past few years.
I really hope they take the OSO platform/mentality and apply it to the updated HD7 with the ability to swap wheel sizes and modular dropouts.
I don’t disagree that the benefits could outweigh the negatives for Lief. Everyone has a preference and it could suit him best. Just wondering is there is any seconds lost due to having to drop power in order to shift in some scenarios. Ews racers pedal way more than the average rider on these downhill stages, especially on the tight technical ones. Being able to put down 600watts and shifting out of a corner vs say 150watts(don’t know actual watts to shift a pinion) can add up on a long tight stage. If that ever changes to not let up power, gear box bikes could potentially take off imo. I’m all for it when it does
Totally agree. You adapt to a different kind of riding/shifting. There’s a lot of climb senerios that this would be a problem like mentioned in the video and be a turn off to the average rider. Pros and cons with every option but feel like it’s a forgotten con to gearboxes.
When I first watched the video a few days ago (I refrained from posting here, since some people were getting agitated by all the GB talk), my two takaways were that a). they were happy that someone finally made a frame with a GB that didn't suck, which seemed more about the bike, and less about the GB, and b). they weren't happy with the shifting under load issue.
I'm also curious about the second one. On my XX1 Eagle gear, there is still a reasonable shifting-under-load limit. I haven't been watching the power meter when I'm in those situations, but I really doubt I ever shift at over 300 Watts. Possibly a single gear out of desperation in the middle of a climb, but I still kind of automatically accelerate slightly before the shift and ease up during the shift. When I'm trying to dump 2 or 3 gears quickly, I'm definitely at lower power. Perhaps T-Type systems allow for a bit more, and I guess if I was in a race, and willing to sacrifice longevity, I might push a bit higher, but I can't imagine shifting at 600W.
As Trocko said, there's probably a learning curve with GBs, just as there was when we started riding with DRs in the dirt many decades ago. For enduro, perhaps the ability to shift several gears without pedaling to reduce the chances of a pedal strike, in preparation for something coming up ahead, is worth more than a power constraint during shifting.
I always let up before shifting, it's just good practice.
As for Pinion, apparently it's limited in the shifting mechanism power, not pedal power. On their assembly line they shift it with an external servo motor under full load without problems.
Interesting. Is there anything online about this? Would be curious if there’s anything more in depth about power limit while shifting
I’ve been riding a 9sp SmartShift Kavenz G2 set up as a 180/180 superenduro or 200/200 park bike for the past few seasons. There’s definitely a learning curve getting used to shifting slightly differently, and being able to shift while coasting and such. When I ride it consistently everything is fine, if I’m coming off a long period of not riding that bike it’ll take me a ride or two to get used to it again. Shifts to harder gears will happen under full power, it’s just easier gears that can be delayed if you don’t let up slightly.
I enjoy the gearbox bike a lot, and have pedaled big days and smashed out a ton of park laps on it with no issues. The centered weight and suspension feel is awesome. I have a normal Kavenz too and prefer the gearbox for my use case (bike park and gnarly trail riding) - I keep it set up as a lighter 160/160 trail/enduro. I probably wouldn’t choose it for my only bike if I wanted to pedal a bunch but I’m lucky enough to have other traditional bikes for when I want to be a bit more efficient. Can’t wait for gearbox e-bikes to arrive, I regularly smash derailleurs on that one.
Sounds like room for improvement
And good day to you, sir.
/ballz out.
Yeah, I recall hearing the same thing, several years ago, when the only shifter option was a twist shifter. Supposedly the gearbox could handle power shifts, and it was just that the shifter couldn't generate enough force. That was before the electronic shifting became an option, and I'd thought they promised that once the electronic arrived, you could shift at full power, but perhaps the servo motors that the ended up using weren't powerful enough to get the shift to complete (unlike the servos that they use for assembly line testing).
Long time reader, first time poster.
I've heard rumours of an an Ibis HD7 this year from my LBS, and just noticed that the Ibis Ripmo & Ripley have had their build specs updated with the new deore groupset yet the HD6 hasn't..
I’ve heard of a longer travel 29er which I’d assume would be the updated HD since ibis just uses flip chips for mullet now. Not sure on timeline though. I’ve also been meaning to message Jank components if they have tried long stroking the ripmo with their long chainstay links. Jumping to 65 stroke should give a ripmo close to 162mm travel.
Chris Canfield on his titanium Gearbox Ripperatti (he mentions shifting under load)
Alright, this bike fucks.
Any intel on Dunlop tires? Looks like it passed a couple of months, we are mid season and still nothing on the market. Almost too suspicious like if they went back to drawing board or whatever.
I think it was mentioned a few years ago in a Pinion equipped bike review on Pinkbike. That's all I remember but this was specifically mentioned. Also this was in the days of gripshift only, before they made the electronic shifting option.
@TheKaiser mentioned the same thing. As I remember it (or as I expect to be) their EOL testing servo motor is probably in the range of Nm, which you can't package in the smartshift mechanism. If I remember correctly there's an allen interface in the middle, maybe it would be possible to implement something like a suicide shifter and shift under full load? 🙂
Also as @ZAKBROWN! mentions it's only shifting to easier gears that's the problem as the mechanism is preloaded. If you let up on the pedals, the mechanism gets released easier. Under power you just need to overcome the binding force to be able to shift. That's where the issue comes from. Going to a harder gear you can push the mechanism out to engage and the harder gear will pull the lighter gear pair off the mechanism and release it that way.
It sounds like as another user stated, it takes a moment to get used to. This makes me think its nothing more than those that cry and moan about T Type taking its time on its shifts (dont remember why it does that). If its something you can subconsciously learn... then sign me up, but with a chain...
The point is you don't need to shift out of a corner, you shift while coasting beforehand
KnuckleCrab!
“Full power” can mean wildly different things. 600W while sitting isn’t anything like a 1200W sprint out of the saddle.
So many bones to pick with that vid. The outgoing Zerode Katipo is very capable and aside from the seat tube angle I have very few complaints. It's a pleasure to ride. Much more satisfying ride quality than my SB Yetis. It is an enduro bike and they all climb tolerably at best in general race trim with the ethos of get it to the top, make it ride really fast on the way down. I have only washed the belt and lubed the idler in my season and a half of riding. No issues...
With a cable grip shift (or DIY trigger) gearbox setup you can feel the system release pressure and permit a shift as you let off the pedal torque. I kind of preload the shifter and feel it jump into place. An then when it clicks in, it's in. No tickticktick smack bang like from a derailleur, especially in low gears where a big cog jump would be needed. The low gear instant indexing is actually where I appreciate the Pinion the most. Want to go from 5th to 2nd? Just time a pedal stroke letup and twist or do it while coasting. Done.
I have a handful of races on my Katipo. Being able to change gears without needing a risky pedal stroke to set in the new gear is an advantage IF you have the skill and foresight to get it right. I have been burned on an unforseen increase in climb grade while sprinting, but that was on me for try to "SS legs" in too high of a gear in the first place.
Gearbox is a hard sell but if you take the dive with an open mind it's a lot of fun, quiet and low maintenance for general enduro riding. 32" wheels are probably a worse compromise (4).
Assuming it's Tristan Lemire? But what kind of frame is this?
Yeah, the T type delay thing is often referenced in cycling media, as if it is super high tech, but they never really explain what the tech is.
As far as I can tell, when T type first came out, it would only shift 1 gear at a time, so in order to do 2 shifts required 2 clicks of the shifter. If you click the button several times very fast, the firmware would pause to let the chain fully engage in each intermediate gear, before doing the next shift.
In addition, my understanding is that there are fewer shift gates on the cassette, so you might need to wait a greater fraction of a wheel revolution before the gate comes up. The cassette teeth are narrow wide too, so they grip the chain more firmly, and the derailleur servo power is lowered such that it will not force the chain over at any other point than the next available shift gate.
Due to complaints from users, Sram came out with firmware that reduced the delay 15%, whatever that means, and also allows multi shifts if you hold the button down, but I think it will still pause on the intermediate gears, which seems to be the big time suck, but people seem to have gotten used to it, as you said.
"It shifts perfectly under load every time because we decide when to let it shift, not you! We also hope you like input buffering, hammer that button and it will shift as many times as you pressed it, even it it keeps shifting for a while after you've stopped pushing the button!"
In all honestly, the slow shifting and delay of transmission feels the exact same as the smaller size gaps on srams 2x road drivetrains. "we couldn't make a front derailleur that could handle the 16 tooth jump so we made the gap between the Chainrings only 11 teeth! Now it shifts well! Our rear derailleurs couldn't shift very well under load so we made it so they will only shift in very specific spots on the cassette and put a delay in the shifting to make it work!"
They're minor complaints and sram on the road and mountain do work really well, but it's funny when you notice it.
Bringing back around to gearboxes, I'm confident that people can and would learn how to let off the pedals to shift better like we all know how to do with derailleurs.
Most likely proto Devinci Wilson, the headtube cable port are similar to current Devinci models and it is split pivot like most Devinci bikes.
I loved my Taniwha till I tried more updated geometry 😄
As much as I love the idea of the Smart Shift, I feel like it actually neuters the bike with the slower shifts. The gripshift is so quick and has such a short throw, so you can grab so many gears. The amount of time you actually need to back off the pedals to shift is so short. You're only limited by how quickly you can twist the thing. I was really disappointed with the Cinq shifters. I have video somewhere. If I remember right, I could get through all 12 gears with the gripshift in just over a second, not that you'd need to, while the Cinq was almost 1 second per gear
I also loved my Taniwha but could not go back to it after trying a newer bike because of the geo. That side I was a massive fan of the pinion and will for sure have another one some day. I think the shifting gets blown out of proportion. I would just time my shifts when my pedals were are 12 and 6 position and ease up a bit on the power and you could shift no problem. I was very against the grip shift at first but after some time on it I liked it.
I think the same review (tanihwa review maybe?) that mentioned the shifting with a servo motor under full power on the assembly line also mentioned that you could preload a shift and it would click in when you let off the pedals. That doesn't work with electronic shifting though, just like regular shifting, with a cable you have a lot more feel.
As gor spacing out or delaying shifts, again it's like letting up on the pedals, it's just good practice. Running a Garbaruk cassette this becomes more important as it's not as tolerant to multi shifts to easier gears as stock Sram Eagle cassettes are, but still, letting the chain wrap around a ring at least a little before shifting again makes sense and lowers the stress on the chain. I think a big reason we have the ability to shift 3 or 4 gears on trigger shifters is marketing and we'd be better off having only single click ebikeesque trigger shifters.
Updated HD6 seems like the most logical step for Ibis considering they've refreshed the Ripmo/Ripley, Ripley SL, and OSO in the past few years.
I really hope they take the OSO platform/mentality and apply it to the updated HD7 with the ability to swap wheel sizes and modular dropouts.
Spotted an interesting DH bike in Verbier today, gearbox, high pivot and the rider was wearing what looks a Whyte Bikes t-shirt
arguing about gearbox shifting sucks. Take it to a new thread please.
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