I could give this a go, would back to back race sim laps be enough to provide accurate results? At least in a way that it...
I could give this a go, would back to back race sim laps be enough to provide accurate results? At least in a way that it is consistently one way or the other?
Riders' goals matter, this is where racing and daily riding for nine-to-fivers diverge. Enduro and DH racers want the fastest speed going down, recreational riders are looking for the best compromise to reduce suffering on the way up.
The people I ride with only care about speed when climbing. For descending we want confidence and predictability. Confidence = speed for us. The tire that is fastest descending changes 150 times a year based on the specific trail and the amount of moisture (or complete lack thereof). My ideal tires for a weekday lunch ride on Galbraith flowy stuff are almost never the same as what they are for a more adventurous weekend ride on slabby, tech-jank loamers. I just put on something that is acceptable in all conditions. I'm not sure how any downhill speed test is anything more than figuring out what tire is fastest for that one particular set of conditions and that rider weight. I sure don't have one favorite tire for going down, I have about three.
Rear tire climbing speed on singletrack or gravelly forest road is what I'd love to know, and that is more quantifiable with fewer variables. But still variable, buffed out trail or rooty and chunky, firm or saturated? Searching for that perfect set of compromises between efficiency, traction and durability. Knowing how much we give up in efficiency between casings, compounds and tread patterns is the one part of that equation that is really hard to figure out. Yeah, this is hard.
Jesse, maybe you could recruit a uni student who needs a thesis, or a class that needs a challenging project. Build an electric test MTB that can put out constant power and measure energy used. Have them test the ups on two test climbs (1 gravel road and 1 singletrack climb), and you test the downs.
Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto shifting down when rider puts high watts combine with motor. Sounds like System protecting itself. Not sure if this is just a software or the system not being able to handle it. We’ll see.
Some high ups in specialized are not happy. A nasty email sent to engineers/ product developers to step it up and motor/gearbox combo bike priority 1
Specialized has an unreleased bike the industry will get to see at whistler crankworx
Little insight I got.July release for yeti Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto...
Little insight I got.
July release for yeti
Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto shifting down when rider puts high watts combine with motor. Sounds like System protecting itself. Not sure if this is just a software or the system not being able to handle it. We’ll see.
Some high ups in specialized are not happy. A nasty email sent to engineers/ product developers to step it up and motor/gearbox combo bike priority 1
Specialized has an unreleased bike the industry will get to see at whistler crankworx
For the Avinox system, EMTB review projected not next year but the following, which makes sense since they’re clearly labeling it a prototype/proof of concept.
Little insight I got.July release for yeti Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto...
Little insight I got.
July release for yeti
Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto shifting down when rider puts high watts combine with motor. Sounds like System protecting itself. Not sure if this is just a software or the system not being able to handle it. We’ll see.
Some high ups in specialized are not happy. A nasty email sent to engineers/ product developers to step it up and motor/gearbox combo bike priority 1
Specialized has an unreleased bike the industry will get to see at whistler crankworx
Little insight I got.July release for yeti Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto...
Little insight I got.
July release for yeti
Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto shifting down when rider puts high watts combine with motor. Sounds like System protecting itself. Not sure if this is just a software or the system not being able to handle it. We’ll see.
Some high ups in specialized are not happy. A nasty email sent to engineers/ product developers to step it up and motor/gearbox combo bike priority 1
Specialized has an unreleased bike the industry will get to see at whistler crankworx
Gobao seem further on that Avinox when it comes to the eCVT and from Eurobike interview they were looking at an early 2027 release to the market. On another forum it was said that they do have established brand(s) on board for that window also. Given that Gobao already supply white label drive systems to Aventon and Hepha it's not beyond possibility one of those brands on board could be Specialized. As soon as Yamaha purchased Brose I always thought Specialized would move away from that partnership ASAP.
For me it's a compromise of grip and confidence inspiring on the downs vs hauling drag uphill
It'd be pseudo science but if you had a power meter I'd be interested in a comparison of radial vs non-radial. Find a fairly uniform part of a climb trail and do some laps trying to keep the power constant. It wouldn't have to be super high power merely something you could achieve repeatedly.
I recall pinkbike in the Levy days doing something similar for some of the field tests.
What is the general vibe of what the new tire is going to be like? I had thought they were more working on a different casing instead of a new tread, but why not both.
What is the general vibe of what the new tire is going to be like? I had thought they were more working on a different casing...
What is the general vibe of what the new tire is going to be like? I had thought they were more working on a different casing instead of a new tread, but why not both.
If you zoom on your phone you can see the boost bro tread pretty decent. Modified and rotated center knobs on a 2-2-2 pattern and the side knobs are very consistent similar to a reshaped assegai. I’m Thinking edge like a minion rolled over but with way less transition space so most riders don’t get as scared from the “wow I’m still not grabbing” long as hell to engage float - less float before hooking into that wonderful edge.
Should be a really fun and probably significantly faster than assegai, but still have that heavy DHF leant over hold.
I don’t think it’s really a flawed test methodology, but rather a lack of understanding how to interpret the results and over extrapolating.Testing a tire on...
I don’t think it’s really a flawed test methodology, but rather a lack of understanding how to interpret the results and over extrapolating.
Testing a tire on a steel drum tells you how fast it rolls. It doesn’t tell you everything that happens when you put that in a much larger system. The main thing people forgot about was the giant meat damper sitting on top of those tires. Off road it’s much more difficult to test the impact of the meat damper because suddenly the relevance of the compliance of the tire is much more variable because the surface is much more variable than pavement types. It’s the same reason why we have hardpack specific and loose specific tires. One isn’t better than the other; they succeed in different environments.
If you ride somewhere where tire compliance matters a lot, the radial might even be more efficient. But if you are riding somewhere where that isn’t the case, then it probably won’t.
This stuff is complicated, which makes it hard to properly test and show and explain. People want to hear that such and such tire is the best ever bar none, but in reality the answer is always going to be: it depends. There’s just a lot of nuance.
The only way to find out is to test on your course. And then all you’ll find out is what setup works best for you, but then that’s all that actually matters in racing. Just look at f1, some drivers talk about how they can’t even drive their teammates setups, and those are pretty fine details they are tweaking all things considered. But like last year Lando still won the championship even though his setup was supposed to be less ideal from an aero perspective, because he was willing to sacrifice aero for driver feedback.
Let me say more clearly what was implied in my previous post: those old road bike rolling resistance tests tell me that our own internal rolling...
Let me say more clearly what was implied in my previous post: those old road bike rolling resistance tests tell me that our own internal rolling resistance gauges in our brains are not very trustworthy. I'm not convinced that radial tires roll slower because the only evidence we have is that they feel like they roll slower.
21mm tires pumped up to 120 psi feel fast as hell on asphalt. As you go faster, you get more and more vibration feedback from the tire, giving the sensation of greater and greater speed. A 32mm tubeless GP5000 pumped up to 60 psi is going to feel dead, damped, and sluggish by comparison. It's going to feel like there's a lot more tire tread on the road with the 32 (because there is), but that doesn't mean it has more rolling resistance in practice, because frictional rolling resistance is only one of many factors affecting the actual on-bike rolling resistance of tires. The reason we were trapped on horrible skinny road bike tires for decades is that the feedback riders were getting from their own internal rolling resistance gauge in their brains happened to line up with the results that the lab was getting back from their bad rolling resistance test methodology. The two flawed measurement systems were in agreement.
I bring that up because that story reminds me of the descriptions I keep hearing from radial tire users and how claim to know that their radial tires "roll slower." I've heard many people say that there's more of the tread in contact with the ground, and that it feels dead, damped, and sluggish, just like the 32mm GP5000 in my example above.
The difference is that (to my knowledge) we don't have any rolling resistance data of any sort to point to regarding that new crop of radial tires. We only have data from the flawed internal rolling resistance gauge located in people's brains. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm saying there's no compelling reason to conclude that they're right.
And if someone can share a link to rolling resistance data for new radial tires, I'm all ears.
I've got a soft trail magic Mary and soft trail big Betty mounted (Bett is a bit worn though), a radial super soft magic Mary in stock and a radial soft Romy on order. And I've got a power meter available.
Constant 180 w up the same climb and compare the time it takes to get up there should cover the rolling resistance question, right?
Also, talking about tread contact and all, looks like I REALLY need to make that tyre stiffness tool finally...
Little insight I got.July release for yeti Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto...
Little insight I got.
July release for yeti
Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto shifting down when rider puts high watts combine with motor. Sounds like System protecting itself. Not sure if this is just a software or the system not being able to handle it. We’ll see.
Some high ups in specialized are not happy. A nasty email sent to engineers/ product developers to step it up and motor/gearbox combo bike priority 1
Specialized has an unreleased bike the industry will get to see at whistler crankworx
Gonna say some sort of trail bike. Despite what there marketing has said I can’t believe they don’t see a market for an epic evo or camber
I believe the new Saint group will be like how modern pickups are in the USA. Waiting for a truck company to make a durable, usable, no bullshit build. It shows up but they did something so stupid in design that no one wants it, then we just go back to the older models anyways.
I believe the new Saint group will be like how modern pickups are in the USA. Waiting for a truck company to make a durable, usable...
I believe the new Saint group will be like how modern pickups are in the USA. Waiting for a truck company to make a durable, usable, no bullshit build. It shows up but they did something so stupid in design that no one wants it, then we just go back to the older models anyways.
Sounds more like SRAM's approach to product releases.
It is always interesting to see what companies are willing to patent. Sometimes they reveal new, out-of-the-box thinking for an innovative approach to solving an old problem. A lot of times they are just to make sure no one else can make money off an idea without paying them royalties, particularly useful if there are tough aspects of the problem that you don't know how to resolve. Someone else solves those bits, and pays you royalties for any art covered in your patent.
I'm curious if anyone has tracked the number of Sram and Shimano patents that have resulted in been produced commercially viable products versus the total number of patents produced. I haven't, but I'm guessing the ratio is not great.
Nevertheless, release of patents like this is exactly what this thread is about - so keep it up.
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:
Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75% efficient in scooters. They are less efficient than traditional manual transmissions (which hit 97%) because they rely on sliding friction to transfer power. However, their ability to keep the engine at its most optimal power zone balances out these losses.
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75%...
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:
Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75% efficient in scooters. They are less efficient than traditional manual transmissions (which hit 97%) because they rely on sliding friction to transfer power. However, their ability to keep the engine at its most optimal power zone balances out these losses.
Makes me think I want to manual convert my Honda cvt to save fuel
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75%...
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:
Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75% efficient in scooters. They are less efficient than traditional manual transmissions (which hit 97%) because they rely on sliding friction to transfer power. However, their ability to keep the engine at its most optimal power zone balances out these losses.
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75%...
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:
Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75% efficient in scooters. They are less efficient than traditional manual transmissions (which hit 97%) because they rely on sliding friction to transfer power. However, their ability to keep the engine at its most optimal power zone balances out these losses.
Makes me think I want to manual convert my Honda cvt to save fuel
I think the selling point for CVTs in ICE-driven systems is that often gas engines have a pretty narrow torque band where they are efficient, with efficiency dropping off quite a bit outside of the band. A standard transmission with maybe 4 to 6 gears will end up just having a couple of sweet spots where efficiency is good. The CVT allows the system to live in the efficient band most/all of the time.
Commercial 18-wheeler-type drives have staged transmissions to get them many more points where the system is good, much like our 12-speed drivetrains. They pop through 4 or 5 gears just getting through an intersection.
I like that Gates and others are looking into this, but I doubt belt-CVTs are going to make it into production for pedal bikes, unless there is some other aspect that gives them an advantage for a niche market. Time will tell.
July
Riders' goals matter, this is where racing and daily riding for nine-to-fivers diverge. Enduro and DH racers want the fastest speed going down, recreational riders are looking for the best compromise to reduce suffering on the way up.
The people I ride with only care about speed when climbing. For descending we want confidence and predictability. Confidence = speed for us. The tire that is fastest descending changes 150 times a year based on the specific trail and the amount of moisture (or complete lack thereof). My ideal tires for a weekday lunch ride on Galbraith flowy stuff are almost never the same as what they are for a more adventurous weekend ride on slabby, tech-jank loamers. I just put on something that is acceptable in all conditions. I'm not sure how any downhill speed test is anything more than figuring out what tire is fastest for that one particular set of conditions and that rider weight. I sure don't have one favorite tire for going down, I have about three.
Rear tire climbing speed on singletrack or gravelly forest road is what I'd love to know, and that is more quantifiable with fewer variables. But still variable, buffed out trail or rooty and chunky, firm or saturated? Searching for that perfect set of compromises between efficiency, traction and durability. Knowing how much we give up in efficiency between casings, compounds and tread patterns is the one part of that equation that is really hard to figure out. Yeah, this is hard.
Jesse, maybe you could recruit a uni student who needs a thesis, or a class that needs a challenging project. Build an electric test MTB that can put out constant power and measure energy used. Have them test the ups on two test climbs (1 gravel road and 1 singletrack climb), and you test the downs.
Little insight I got.
July release for yeti
Avinox cvt system is not 100% and far out from coming to the market. Apparently issues with the system auto shifting down when rider puts high watts combine with motor. Sounds like System protecting itself. Not sure if this is just a software or the system not being able to handle it. We’ll see.
Some high ups in specialized are not happy. A nasty email sent to engineers/ product developers to step it up and motor/gearbox combo bike priority 1
Specialized has an unreleased bike the industry will get to see at whistler crankworx
For the Avinox system, EMTB review projected not next year but the following, which makes sense since they’re clearly labeling it a prototype/proof of concept.
Spesh moto coming in hottttt
Cranks optional.
Gobao seem further on that Avinox when it comes to the eCVT and from Eurobike interview they were looking at an early 2027 release to the market. On another forum it was said that they do have established brand(s) on board for that window also. Given that Gobao already supply white label drive systems to Aventon and Hepha it's not beyond possibility one of those brands on board could be Specialized. As soon as Yamaha purchased Brose I always thought Specialized would move away from that partnership ASAP.
I love that chris Canfield is dropping weird bikes all the time now .
Titanium DH bikes with gearboxes ? I’m Here for it.
What JVP said.
For me it's a compromise of grip and confidence inspiring on the downs vs hauling drag uphill
It'd be pseudo science but if you had a power meter I'd be interested in a comparison of radial vs non-radial. Find a fairly uniform part of a climb trail and do some laps trying to keep the power constant. It wouldn't have to be super high power merely something you could achieve repeatedly.
I recall pinkbike in the Levy days doing something similar for some of the field tests.
Nothing we haven’t seen at world cups, but proto saint is popping up on test bikes in Whistler
I got feed a Shimano Saint ad of all things on youtube last night...
Looks like that rider is also running the unreleased Maxxis DHX tire too.
What is the general vibe of what the new tire is going to be like? I had thought they were more working on a different casing instead of a new tread, but why not both.
If you zoom on your phone you can see the boost bro tread pretty decent. Modified and rotated center knobs on a 2-2-2 pattern and the side knobs are very consistent similar to a reshaped assegai.
I’m Thinking edge like a minion rolled over but with way less transition space so most riders don’t get as scared from the “wow I’m still not grabbing” long as hell to engage float - less float before hooking into that wonderful edge.
Should be a really fun and probably significantly faster than assegai, but still have that heavy DHF leant over hold.
I'll be dead before new saint drops.
Is there any more information about the Prototype maxxis tyre jackson was running last year?
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=19e5b2fa3f3fba618238eb11145aeaabc3c3728e…
I've got a soft trail magic Mary and soft trail big Betty mounted (Bett is a bit worn though), a radial super soft magic Mary in stock and a radial soft Romy on order. And I've got a power meter available.
Constant 180 w up the same climb and compare the time it takes to get up there should cover the rolling resistance question, right?
Also, talking about tread contact and all, looks like I REALLY need to make that tyre stiffness tool finally...
Gonna say some sort of trail bike. Despite what there marketing has said I can’t believe they don’t see a market for an epic evo or camber
There’s a great look at that tread : DHFX DHF2 BOOST BRO - whatever you wanna call it.
excuse linking the "other site" but pretty funny given recent convo on gearboxes, especially claims about only being viable on ebikes
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/gates-patents-a-cvt-gearbox-for-non-elect…
The derailleur cabal is strong in this thread…
Looking forward to the hanging chad getting off my bike one day
I believe the new Saint group will be like how modern pickups are in the USA. Waiting for a truck company to make a durable, usable, no bullshit build. It shows up but they did something so stupid in design that no one wants it, then we just go back to the older models anyways.
Just because it's patented doesn't mean it works or is a good idea.
Sounds more like SRAM's approach to product releases.
Thank you for stating the obvious
It is always interesting to see what companies are willing to patent. Sometimes they reveal new, out-of-the-box thinking for an innovative approach to solving an old problem. A lot of times they are just to make sure no one else can make money off an idea without paying them royalties, particularly useful if there are tough aspects of the problem that you don't know how to resolve. Someone else solves those bits, and pays you royalties for any art covered in your patent.
I'm curious if anyone has tracked the number of Sram and Shimano patents that have resulted in been produced commercially viable products versus the total number of patents produced. I haven't, but I'm guessing the ratio is not great.
Nevertheless, release of patents like this is exactly what this thread is about - so keep it up.
For what it's worth - here's Google's AI snippet asking about belt CVT efficiency:
Belt-driven CVTs are 80% to 88% efficient in cars, and 70% to 75% efficient in scooters. They are less efficient than traditional manual transmissions (which hit 97%) because they rely on sliding friction to transfer power. However, their ability to keep the engine at its most optimal power zone balances out these losses.
Makes me think I want to manual convert my Honda cvt to save fuel
Soooo... not great?
I think the selling point for CVTs in ICE-driven systems is that often gas engines have a pretty narrow torque band where they are efficient, with efficiency dropping off quite a bit outside of the band. A standard transmission with maybe 4 to 6 gears will end up just having a couple of sweet spots where efficiency is good. The CVT allows the system to live in the efficient band most/all of the time.
Commercial 18-wheeler-type drives have staged transmissions to get them many more points where the system is good, much like our 12-speed drivetrains. They pop through 4 or 5 gears just getting through an intersection.
I like that Gates and others are looking into this, but I doubt belt-CVTs are going to make it into production for pedal bikes, unless there is some other aspect that gives them an advantage for a niche market. Time will tell.
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