DJI's E-MTB Play: Avinox, Amflow and the Future Business of eebs

CORRECTION:
I have decided to go with a BOSCH bike rather than an Avinox bike. Long story short... It still boiled down to packaging, as I found the right geo, bike, weight, and battery (for me) at a competitive price. NOT hating on Avinox, by the way. 

For those who didn't read the link, "If an individual or retailer are caught modifying an ebike to derestrict its maximum speed, the offence is now punishable by up to one-year imprisonment (two year for retailers) and up to a €30,000 fine."

For individuals: "anyone modifying their ebike to exceed the maximum authorized speed – currently 25 km/h for electric bicycles and 45 km/h for speed pedelecs – could now have their bike impounded, face one year in prison and fines of up to €30,000."

For "companies or professionals who manufacture, import, export, sell, rent or install devices that permit illegal tuning to increase an ebike’s maximum speed... :the penalties are even higher, with up to two years imprisonment and a fine of up to €30,000."

Dang. That law has some teeth on it.

may get some hate but I think that law is fair enough.
We dont need to be going mach 10 uphills - and i think Bosch is on the right track in increasing performance where its actually needed - on actual off climb trails, such as steep access hills/paths/roads at a sensible pace  - Do they need to be add Gradient sensors to allow motors such as the Avinox  to then increase the overall wattage available?(yes I know this contradicts what I first said)  I can see this controlling the flat speeds, additionally how do you get around it for say those who want to pedal over lets say 32kmph for jumps... (which i dont think is required on properly built jump lines)

However, I do think the introduction of DJI/amflow/avinox and its performance was required, this created a wave in the EMTB world and as such Specialized has already reduced Retail pricing by up to 25% - hopefully trek etc follow suit. As a side note, One would expect Bosch to lower its OEM cost to Bike brands to compete.

Only raising some questions and opinions open for debate.

The Avinox already has a gradient sensor with an optional loop out feature that kills power when the bike is somewhere around 45°. It also factors gradient into its torque delivery already. I imagine a software update could introduce what you’re describing. 

I missed that you were European.  I don't have a clue on access issues on your side of the pond and didn't mean to be commenting on those.  I also should have prefaced my response by saying it wasn't meant to be personal or inflammatory.  I tend to see red on this issue.  For my mental health, I should probably unfollow this thread.  But I also want to stay to learn more about other people's opinions for trail-advocacy reasons.  

I do think a huge factor in how people view this issue is their normal riding.  If you're mainly climbing up fire roads, or even designated climbing trails, and then descending steep trails where you hardly use the motor, you're more likely to be ambivalent about the Avinox e-motos.

The biggest problem is on rolling, multi-directional trails.  Those trails were planned and built and are managed based on assumptions about user speed.  When e-motos with really high power and 800% assist blow those assumptions out of the water, it's a problem.  Full-powered ebikes were bad enough.  To make a legal-nerd joke almost no one will get, "Are we all downhillers now?"

As e-motos become more and more prevalent, I think you're going to see at least a couple of things on "non-downhill trails."  First, your ability to make up your own route is going to decrease as more trails are designated as directional, likely alternating by the day.  This will happen first as it just requires signage.  On anything other than a pure stacked-loop system, it's going to confusing and annoying.  Compliance will be mixed.  

Second, trail designers/builders will lean heavily into choke points, chicanes, and other similar tricks to force lower trail speeds.  But on rolling trails on flatter terrain, you have to work really hard to prevent people from responding to these tricks by braiding the trail.  If you're not building with an excavator with a thumb and there are not relatively large rocks nearby, avoiding braiding at these features is very difficult.  There will be constant battles between trail organizations and users on this front.  Large piles of downed limbs will pop up and disappear like mushrooms.

Surely it would have been easier for Rocky Mountain to just give Avinox their lunch money. Of all the "what are you DOING?" MTB companies out there, Rocky's desire to do this all themselves and do it weird just doesn't make any sense to me. Can our resident financial guru explain what financial sorcery they are working with here that makes this all work out for them in the long run to avoid le-Bankruptcy 2.0.

In terms of watts:complete bike weight not many are doing it like Rocky. The Instinct powerplay SL I rode last year was 44lbs in an XL and could deliver  700W and 75Nm post firmware update. 

I have no clue what their financial situation is at this point but Dyname are looking for additional partners after nearly 10 years of RM exclusivity

There's more going on in the background that most people are not aware of, but making good on our supply chain and manufacturing partners is a critical step to ensure our good standing in the industry and future brand viability. 

That still doesn't explain why a design company that specializes in having bike frames built and assembled overseas has taken on the long term r&d costs of making a motor and battery system. Or how that play works out on the second go-around in a market utterly dominated by two incumbents, having already gone bankrupt once trying this. Or how you compete with a new, disruptive force in that same market coming at you with a more powerful, lighter system and an unlimited war chest. I understand that personally you're very tied to this but from the outside, this looks crazy. 

Pretty much expected, there is no way they were going to sit idly by and watch Avinox/DJI crush them in that segment.  

Kind of just reinforces the fears that this will end up just being an arms race to the bottom.  

Also, the "trickcheck" feature?  No words for that...

posted on may 1 - https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/bosch-cx-goes-120nm-600-support-mor…

My interpretation here is that this bike was in the pipeline before things went sideways for Rocky and the money was already spent. R&D costs on the motor was already burnt ages ago. 

Seems to be a lot of hate on the new Rocky because it's not a DJI an it looks different. Not a single comment on it's geo or other metrics, just all how it looks. Fashion has taken over mtb, if a bike doesn't look right it's not going to sell.

If the Rocky/Dyname team could get the S4 Pro numbers out of a package the size and looks of the S4 Lite I think there would be a different reaction to the latest release. 

It's still limited to 750w & the class 1 speed limits that regionally apply.

The reality is that they are being compared to Class 3 motor systems and therefore losing the sales battle.

Below in an attachment is a list of agreed upon regulatory bodies that outline what a Class 1 is, snipped from a Bosch presentation. With a cursory glance it appears that the rules are as such: no throttle, must be pedal assist, max speed US 20mph/ 25 kph Euro, 750 w max.

It's clear that several motor manufacturers are breaking the last 2. 

There is also an often cited 250 nominal power limit, but this is assuming very outdated tech (no digital controllers and so forth) and needs to be updated obviously, since the Avinox makes 6x that power level and I guess is still technically legal on the power front with that particular regulation.

The power equation is pretty simple regardless of what units you use. Power = torque x RPM. This explains why Bosch's new 120 NM upgrade cuts out at a pretty low cadence, it's the only way to keep the Power below 750w. This simple formula also explains why the Bosch SX motor could make 600w, but only at 120 cadence or whatever it was. It still had low torque!

I don't deny that some of the high-powered motors are fun, smooth, ride great, controllable, etc. Whatever. The fact remains that the industry needs to draw a red line in the sand and say: 'okay, we agree that up this power level it's akin to a bicycle with access to all bicycle regulations, concessions, trails, etc. Above that level it's classified as a motor-cycle and is subject to registration, insurance, licensing & so on.' If we don't regulate, it's going to get regulated for us.

These e-bikes are getting pretty fast imo, for what they were intended to be. 750 w is only 1 hp, but the difference is that bikes roll MUCH easier than a dirt bike, are MUCH lighter than a dirt bike, the electric motors have extreme torque, and so on. I'm telling you my Bosch is faster than a 4-5 hp Honda Z50 and I'm certain a new Avinox with 2x the power is considerably faster.

Francis just had to change his bike testing climbing route where he times all of the bikes climbing speeds, because the curves on the 30' wide dirt trail he has utilized for years was slowing the Avinox bikes down, not the motor, the ability of the rider to negotiate a jeep road turn at 22 mph. Meaning he could not fully test the speed of the motor. The speed he climbed, is about what I'd expect a trail dirt bike to negotiate the same road at with an average rider and yah, I think it's much too fast to be called 'bicycling'.

I'm not so sure they can't do both.  College football a great example.  Plenty of coaches and schools saying something along the lines of "We don't think a number of things are healthy for the sport, good for the kids, etc., but we have to do them to be competitive.  Please create and enforce some rules so we don't have to do them anymore.  And please hurry before things get even more out of hand."  

I'd have way more respect for that than the cowardly avoidance that's characterized the industry's response thus far.   

"Fashion has taken over mtb, if a bike doesn't look right it's not going to sell."

Cycling has been in the fashion business for a long time. Image over substance. Marketing over engineering. Features over benefits. Trendy picks and subjective opinions of a few tastemakers (product managers) setting the course 24-36 months out. 

Where it has gone in the last 8-10+ years is more "fast fashion," unfortunately. Guess on the trend due to poor data (color, style, etc), over-produce, flood the channels, dump the remaining inventory, rinse and repeat in time for the next season. Artisanal lugged steel, Colnago C-whatever-number-they're-up-to, and so on, might be in the "luxury fashion" category with their premium pricing, never-on-sale approach, and if they did overproduce, they would destroy it to protect the brand and price.  

Weight aside, if that's what the kid wants then save a few grand and get this instead. 3x the torque and 60 mph for up to 50 miles.