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Step 1 — Mechanical energy available from 800 Wh
Mechanical Wh=800×efficiency\text{Mechanical Wh} = 800 \times \text{efficiency}Mechanical Wh=800×efficiency
Motor Efficiency
Mechanical Wh from 800 Wh
Mahle M40, 80%, 640 Wh
Fazua Ride 60, 79%, 632 Wh
Avinox, 78.5%, 628 Wh
Bosch CX-R, 78%, 624 Wh
Maxon, 77%, 616 Wh
Bosch CX, 75.5%, 604 Wh
Pinion MGU, 75%, 600 Wh
Bosch SX, 73%, 584 Wh
S-Works 3.1, 71%, 568 Wh
Step 2 — Range difference vs Mahle (baseline)
Let’s set Mahle = 100% range.
Range scales directly with usable mechanical Wh.
Motor
Mechanical Wh
Relative range vs Mahle
Mahle, 640wh, 100%
Fazua, 632wh, 98.8%
Avinox, 628wh, 98.1%
CX-R, 624wh, 97.5%
Maxon, 616wh, 96.3%
CX 604wh,94.4%
Pinion 600wh, 93.8%
SX, 584wh, 91.3%
S-Works 3.1, 568wh, 88.8%
What this actually means with the same 800 Wh battery:
Avinox vs Mahle difference ≈ 1.9% range
CX-R vs Mahle ≈ 2.5%
Bosch CX ≈ 5.6% shorter
S-Works 3.1 ≈ 11% shorter
Important reality check
This is pure motor efficiency impact only.
Real-world range will also depend on:
Total assist power used (big factor)
Rider input
Seal/bearing drag at cruise
Bike weight
Rolling resistance & aero
Riding style
In practice:
I doubt it, he's sponsored by Bosch. He's trying to discredit the opposition?
I think this is what we’re seeing, he’s the poster boy so it’s a bit of virtue signalling… but it’s also got a twinge of “shouting at clouds” about it, mostly because it’s US/NA focused.
Bosch is definitely considering higher speed limitations in certain markets where there’s no governance or legislation to limit it. On latest CX motors only.
Bosch must be nervous about losing market share. The market swing to Avinox will be greater than 90% in some brands which were small players and will now be “volume movers” as consumers chase the latest koolaid.
The biggest concern in all of this is the inventory glut we’re likely to see in 12months time as many brands over order Avinox to chase the boom of sales which might or might not be there, whilst Bosch/Brose/other brands maintain ordering cycles but don’t see sales. Good for consumers, maybe. Bad for the optics and profitability of this big dumb industry, probably.
You can very easily boost the transition to 160/170. I’d get that and if you want more travel it’s there.
Came across this brand on YouTube. I think the bike looks good but interesting choice on shimano motor and a 40mm gap in reach from medium to large. Have to Wonder when shimano is going to update their motors to stay relevant
https://cilo-ebikes.com/en/bikes
>Have to Wonder when shimano is going to update their motors to stay relevant
It’ll take 10 years and whatever they release will already be outdated
Because of the power wars shimano gets often treated unfairly in the court of public opinion. In reality their motors were at the forefront in terms of overall system weight, having a small form factor and providing natural support when they came out. They just fumbled it with the batteries and the rattle and since then have been behind the curve.
They should come out with something new (I don't have info) at this time. But I think they are kind of a slow moving company and covid might have them struggling more with compensating when they are slow like that.
To me their mtb products before covid were on par or better, especially for their price, than those of their competitors. I bought my first ebike in 2019 and Bosch bikes were heavy monsters (they just switched to intube batteries) with ridiculous geometry (long chainstays, short front center). And the 11-speed shimano drivetrains were much better than Sram. Then covid hit and shimano stuff was barely available because apparently they shut down their factories. And since then all their stuff seems to be delayed by a huge margin.
or the fact reliability was their biggest issue. - Yamaha(giant) motors were very similar in power and delivery but they didnt see reliability issues and those other brands using them havnt dropped them.
I've had 4 replacement shimano motors, never again.
Imagin having a shimano motor with xt di2 wireless, Holy Filing cabinet down stairs.
And they weren't rebuildable for the longest time. There's maybe one or 2 businesses doing partial fixes and service on shimano motors , in N America, only now.
Yamaha and Bosch have had decent parts availability and service centers for years now.
Shimano is the bic pen of ebike motors
To be fair again: the reliability issues weren't as bad as the brose. Plus while there were no spare parts available the motors itself were always available for sale at a rather low price.
You can buy them new for 180€: https://www.bike-discount.de/de/shimano-steps-ep6-du-ep600-mittelmotor-250w-85nm-antriebseinheit
Plus the motor mount from e8000 to ep801 is the same. Which means bikes from 10 years ago aren't obsolete as you have a lot of motors to choose from.
Wow, that is actually remarkably reasonable!😲 In the past, I'd often see people saying that out-of-pocket costs for a new motor could be closer to $1000 USD/Euro, which made it all the more ridiculous that manufacturers were not offering routine local maintenance options/rebuilding/spare parts. But having a shop do annual maintenance and a rebuild (if it were even possible), would almost certainly cost at least 180 Euro, or even quite a bit more once costs for parts such as bearings, seals, etc...are added in. It might not be the most eco friendly option, but from an economic standpoint, that is a pretty compelling idea.
now do the ep8
Had nowhere close to the Brose failure rate and apart from the rattle it is a decent motor that allowed for comparatively slim/light builds when it came out. The Orbea rise became a hit because of it. Bosch would have been too heavy as a system as they only allow their own batteries to be specced.
but you can’t buy the motor. you can only buy yours because it’s end of life and sold at clearance prices
Why aren't there any E-Downhill bikes? I'd imagine there is a market for something like that. DH bikes benefit from being a bit heavier, they suck to pedal, are restricted to lift access or shuttle riding only. Slapping a motor on it would eliminate most of the reasons the average consumer doesn't own one, wouldn't it?
Dual crown max travel suspension, 11 or 12 spd groupset, dropper post, DH frame geometry, full power motor system. Sounds like a pretty sick setup to me.
Not sure about that. When my E8000 died outside of warranty, I was able to buy one in 2021. Third party seller, not through a (non-existent) dealerships.
Every brand has bad samples out there. I put 4k miles and my wife 3k miles on an ep8 with zero issues other than going through speed sensors. In contrast, I went through 2 fazua ride 60 motors in just 800 miles. Now 3k miles on cx gen 5 and my wife 2k miles on an sx.
The shimano motors were not the most advanced, but certainly not the bottom of the barrel for reliability. The availability of replacement motors during their peak was frustrating and now, can be difficult to impossible to deal with. IMO, the availability of replacements and service was the real let down of that product.
Related/unrelated... as noted above, the good news about the shimano stuff was a consistent motor mount. I have seen and assisted 2 modifications of shimano based ebikes to install new ep8's in bikes that originally had e8000s and ep801s in place of ep8s. It did involve drilling holes in carbon... and no one died... yet.
Crestline might make their 200mm travel cascade links available for sale, which would make it the first full travel DH ebike.
It is a pretty high leverage rate on the rear shock though. Not sure how shocks would hold up to that abuse.
There are a good amount of people throwing dual crown forks on enduro ebikes, which in my opinion gets you pretty close to a DH ebike that is still acceptable for pedaling.
My 801 experience remains worth it. Slam-dunkingly so. Very hyped on whatever’s next, as apparently I’m still in the Stone Age with this ripping repeater that’ll deliver me more damn trail than I can handle, day after day after day!
on Repeat(er)
At least in Europe there were always motors available to buy on the open market. It's also important to note that at least for the e8000 you could use the motor in the bike without having to go to a dealer. With specialized for example you can run into trouble if you buy a motor or just a mastermind display. You need to pay a dealer to set it up to work with the rest.
So I pulled the trigger on that Transition regulator SX. It was a demo bike so it had a few miles on it (fine by me for the price). I went for my first ride on it, very brief before it started snowing again fml. But i noticed a noise and have no idea if its normal or not. On the downstroke of my left foot, it was making a kind of rubbing noise simlar to the sound your shoe or fabric might make if it was rubbing on your crank, i actually looked down to see if it was my foot. It was not. So im curious if anyone else here might know what that is. Will try and get a vid of it next time i can ride.
Lastly, just wanted to say im blown away by how fun an ebike is, holy crap. Also, im suprised people want more power than the sx motor, it seemed quite zippy to me, could motor up hills really fast.
then you should have no problem pointing to a source that sells you an ep8, today.
No problem. Like I said: you could always buy single shimano motors at least in Europe and idk why that shouldn't be possible elsewhere.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/297598934300?var=0&toolid=20006&customid=p6J02g…
Well there are plenty of options with warranty shipping from germany:
https://4mybike.de/Shimano-Steps-EP8-DU-EP800-Mittelmotor-85Nm-250W-E-Bike?URL_PARAM_1=ref
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/neu-shimano-du-ep801-motor-drive…
„Motor ist in Werkseinstellung. Für eine betriebsbestimmte Nutzung sollte die Software des Motors - ggf. kostenpflichtig - auf ihr Bike angepasst werden. Für weitere Informationen können sie uns gerne auch schon vor dem Kauf des Motors kontaktieren.“
There is a rumor floating around the interwebs that the Orbea Rallon will be released with an Avinox motor in April. If that is true, they will get my money!
Surprised no one posted this from the newest Atherton e-bike episode
It's 100% being shown in April/ May time frame. My dealer told me that I'd only be able to get one around August and even then in the highest build kits. It's also 170/ 180.
I choose to order a new Wild with a Bosch CXR because it suits my needs fine, I'll have it in < 3 weeks, and the price was actually pretty bonkers (good). Also, apparently Bosch is going to match Avinox power levels soon but that's not something that I care about personally.
Keeping an e-bike running long term is a real thing and Avinox right now are having extended and common wait times for replacements according to some online posters, particularly in the UK where they sold a lot of them and they get a lot of wet weather. Combine that with DJI's history of making previous gen drones obsolete and unsupported, I chose to go with consistency over extreme power.
I've heard this Bosch rumor a bit... the gen 5 is not that old so are they going to up the gen 5 power again?
or come out with a new motor?
there was a 5 year gap between gen 4 and 5.
Post a reply to: E-bike talk: not tech rumor derailment