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Are we talking wireless brakes dying or Hayes 9's on the 1st bleed in 15 years dying?
I believe the engineers when they say that mixing mineral oil / DOT fluids/seals is a bad thing, since they're quite different and DOT is so caustic. Plus DOT being water soluble and mineral oil isn't, it's easy to understand that there's some pretty large chemical differences there which could cause different reactions to the rubber seals. But I think different mineral-type oils is fine and their language is more about CYI from their lawyers and also them wanting their brakes to have the feel that they designed around. I'd say the "you could die" bit is just due to it being related to brakes, and brake failures are kinda bad.
I'd be really curious to hear from an engineer why you'd WANT a higher viscosity oil in your brakes, given the associated penalties in getting a good bleed. I'm guessing once you have a good bleed, it lasts longer between bleeds? And probably has a harder time getting around seals?
My personal take is that a xt/trp lever master piston is unlikely to fail catastrophically due to using maxima mineral oil.
If there truly was an incompatibility between a o-ring and oil, I would expect it to swell or degrade, resulting in a leak or stickiness at the lever. Both of those would be indicators I would notice and pay attention to.
I also think it’s CYA lawyer language more than anything based in reality say “only use our mineral oil”. They’ve developed and tested it with only one oil, so they can only “approve” that one oil. Mfg has no incentive to test/approve other oils.
I’m slightly more risk averse for the caliper side where the seals are huge and maintaining mfg rebounding/tolerances is important. Hence using maxima in the shaven / traven brakes.
Anyone use TRP evo pro levers with a different Caliper?
Im sick of these E23 calipers leaking but i really like the lever.
Sorry I should have been much clearer that I was referring to Shimano's PR material being vague. As you've said they're explicit about what is officially supported, but they're publically vague (for liability reasons, presumably) about whether you'll have problems if you mix them (i.e. whether they're compatible), using words like "may"* rather than "will".
* When they really mean "might" or "could"
TRP / Maven update.
I rode Santa Cruz with the Travens today.
The total power on tap with the TRP lever is similar to with the XT lever. The bite point feel with both is relatively solid. The TRP does have more modulation though. It’s easier to lock up a wheel with the XT lever - very little force needed.
The TRP lever has exceptionally light pull, but it does have a longer lever throw compared to the XT (or maven lever).
The best feature of the TRP is that there is no brake pump / wandering out bite point. The ergonomics and function of the XT is fantastic, but the pumping out of the bite point is awful on sustained DH. Nothing of the sort with the TRP lever. I don’t understand the mechanics of what is happening in the lever to cause the “pump” for the XT.
It’s also worth pointing out that I did a dead simple shimano style bleed for both of these levers. Just a bleeding edge on a syringe at the caliper and a cup at the lever to collect the fluid. My buddies with mavens all have their voodoo magic bleed techniques with two syringes pushing/pulling that they say you have to do juuuust right.
I think I’m going to stick it out with the Travens for a bit, but I am tempted to try redline likewater in the Shaven setup and see if that actually gets rid of the pump/wandering.
Test footy:
Just a heads up, TRP has some of the best customer service I have ever experienced. If you shoot them an email they will help you out.
That said, if you want more power, my recent (and limited) experience is that TRP levers pair great with the maven bronze caliper.
Cheers, Im happy with the performance, currently using Galfer purple pads with r5 220/200 rotors.
Just the Bleed screw keeps pouring oil out despite it being tight, common issue it seems.
Following
Next up on shaven brake test: Saint / Maven
I used Saint brakes for two months in Whistler last summer and never noticed any bite point wandering like the XT’s. The Saint lever is a slightly different design from the XT. The servowave is a metal cutout from the lever body rather than a plastic guide piece. Does this change the pumping up wander action? I have no idea. The relative steepness of most trails in Whistler bike park is not very extreme, so that may play a role in not having the wandering issue. Santa Cruz steep trails are normally 30-38% grade, so it could be that the pump/wander only shows up in the most demanding heavy braking scenarios.
Initial pull on pavement is as expected - basically throw you over the bars absurd amounts of braking power. Typical light shimano lever pull action.
If there is any brake pump / wander, I have a bottle of redline likewater arriving this weekend and I’ll flush the lines with that.
I just wrap the screw with some Plummers tape and it keeps them from leaking. Never had a problem after I started doing that. I do take extra care on making sure its just on the threads.
That screw seals on the conical face, not the threads.
It will trap some oil between the face and the threads. This will weep out of the threads and make it look like it's leaking. I find giving it a squirt of isopropyl on the bleed screw threads after tightening helps.
Yes i understand that, I've cleaned it many times and it continues to leak.
I rode a bit with the saint lever and have noticed that there is a bit more initial pull force required vs the XT lever. There is a small initial "wall" of force that is required to pull the saint lever into its stroke, that simply does not exist with the xt lever.
The saint servowave has a small notch that is noticeable to break into the stroke. My theory is that the plastic servowave guide on XT has less friction vs the metal on metal servowave guide with the saint.
Can anyone with XTR comment on how breaking into the lever stroke feels? Does it have a small wall of force required to break into the stroke, or is it smooth like XT?
I didn't ride any steeps with the saint lever so I can't comment on whether it has the same wandering/pumping out behavior as the XT.
After a closer inspection of the Saint lever, the servowave guide has a sharper angle on the Saint vs the XT or XTR lever. This results in the higher initial pull force required at the start of the lever stroke.
So I switched the XT lever back to the maven caliper and did a full bleed with redline likewater. Internet forum claims indicate that this ultra low viscosity suspension oil alleviates any wandering. We’ll see how it goes. I feel like I’m taking a bit of a risk mixing a low viscosity mineral oil with caliper seals not designed for that. I’m trying it out but proceed with caution if you decide to do the same.
Once you find the winning combo I am curious what the durability of that system looks like. For example I had some Shiguras that felt great but in every instance I ended up with weepy banjos or weepy piston seals.
Is there some mix and match combo of levers-hoses-calipers-fluid that feels good but is unreliable?
Really enjoying the experimentation.
I tried Shigura's but had leaky caliper seals also. I didn't even fight it but went through 2 sets of pads (I've never been able to salvage brake pads that get contaminated) and just swapped them out for slx.
I have 5-6 sets of Shimano 4 piston brakes and only ONE has the wandering bite point. I would love to know what causes some to wander and some not.
Had the same problem with 4(!) Magura calipers, I emailed them and they sent me new calipers with pads and a small bottle of their brake fluid.
My plan is to use them until they start weeping again and then try trp calipers with Shimano levers.
Two days on Sragura/Mavura setup on the front.
Pros: More modulation than Shigura or Saint setup, no wondering bite point, wide range of contact point adjustment
Cons: Harder to bleed and setup, lever pull is heavier than shimano, lever allows for little space to place dropper lever mount (could be fixed with matchmaker)
TRP are replacing the Calipers, But i dont feel like itll fix it as all my e23 calipers have leaked.
are you using a thinner version or what?
Just been using regular tape but I cut it half the width and do like 2 wraps and it has worked great for me.
I had a good day out on the XT/Maven's with redline likewater. No issues. No wandering bite. Just light level pull and absurdly strong brakes.
I'll be sticking with this setup for the foreseeable future. Will be interesting to see how the long term reliability is, and how the bleed holds up.
Brian Cahal released a video about Shavens. Sounds like he liked the setup as much as I do.
I think I'm going to need a word index for the new lexicon this thread is generating. Shigura, Shmaven, Traven, Sragura, Mavura, ...MavTurp? 🤩
I guess we're going with "lever" + "caliper" as the formula for the new words?
Holy crap, I just realized we may have a bunch of 200mm and 203mm rotor factors to consider. Will Shmavengalf be a thing?
I know OP if this thread went with Bronze calipers and used steathamjig fittings to connect the hose, but does anyone know if banjo fittings are somewhat universal? If I wanted to attempt replacing my TRP E23 calipers with Maven Silver, is it as simple as disconnect the banjo and connect to the Maven caliper? In Brian's video, his comrade mentions using Jaguar hoses -- haven't looked into that yet.
I'm running a shimano hose with magura caliper and maven lever with a sram olive and pin. It works just fine. For my shigura in the rear I'm using a magura hose, magura caliper, magura pin and olive and shimano lever.
I've been guilty of mixing mineral oils and never had a problem, but I felt the fluid being incompatible was one of the more prominent messages when Shimano released the new brakes. Watch the video from 13'40" to hear it discussed here: vitalmtb.com/features/shimano-wireless-xtr-di2-six-month-review , it's also in the text.
I've been rocking Shiguras for the past few years to get the great Shimano ergonomics without worry of the caliper leaking (I feel that might be what leads to WBP). Since the new Shimano brakes address those issues I've been considering switching to full Shimano. Has anyone here made that switch and can share feedback?
I have a set of old 2 piston XT M785 (the ones with the chrome cover). I have wondered about doing this for a few months, but this thread has got me hyped now. I have been trying to google any difference in bore size from the 2 piston or 4 piston master cylinders. Haven't been able to find an answer... I wanted to pair these old masters to base maven calipers on my trail bike, just wondering if the older ones have a larger bore and would cause a squishy lever? And thanks to evwan for all that bleeding and olives and barbs, very meticulous and annoying work to do
Interesting set up. I have maven Bronze on my ebike and would consider trp levers if I can find cheap ones. you just put TRP barb and olive on the brake line and push Maxima fluid through the Maven caliper to the lever? Appreciate the help
Yeah that's pretty much it. If you already have maven calipers set up you could probably get away with just a bleed cup and doing a thorough lever bleed. If you have never bled the mavens before, be aware you'll need a SRAM bleeding edge fitting to push oil through them.
Post a reply to: Shimano/TRP Maven - S-tier braking (Shaven/Traven)