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I have a NSR-racing valve in RockShock, this valve has a bleed and I can agree that LSC knob does nothing...
I need to have a look at my fork setup again and it's a Fox Factory Grip 2 160mm (2021+).
There's a bit of variation in recommended setup from Pivot and if I just check the pdf's directly from Fox which is one aspect. The other aspect is that in the pdf from Pivot it says they find riders are running 2-3 pressure settings below the recommended pressure for their weight. What they do not disclose is if that means you should also align the rebound clicks to the recommendations for that lower weight bracket if you have stepped down, or if rebound should be set to your actual weight recommendation.
This is from the pdf from Pivot.
These are the recommendations for the clickers.
Finally, here is the recommendations from the pdf from Fox. I'm in the 180-190lbs range and the recommendation from Fox will align with the 210-220lbs recommendation from Pivot which leaves too much room for error. I know this is just a starting point, but I'd like to know what that actual point is because I see that I've so far just followed the Pivot pdf as well as followed the pressure for my weight which pretty much is bang on 20% sag. As I now know it doesn't need to be 20%, I'm just open to slightly more sag which the 2-3 steps down will lead to, and hopefully someone knows which rebound row is the actual recommended settings so I can do a new bracketing session hopefully from a more correct starting point for what I ride.
My gut tell me my pressure is too high and the rebound settings too fast because I use less travel than I feel I should and the rebound too nervous and just slams me in the face. I know it's a harsh feeling fork in general, but I would just like to at least get it more dialed.
Same with the Fox Float X shock which has 0.7 tokens from factory settings. I think it's time to step down to a less progressive ramp(removed the 1 token upfront that is stock so zero tokens) because my bike is just way too progressive for the rocky trails that I ride.
(I am going for a coil shock and most likely a Smashpot in the coming future, so for now just trying to work with what I got)
Rebound baseline should be the pressure, not the weight recommendation. The spring stiffness (so the pressure) is what pushes back on the rebound circuit and is what defines how much damping you need. If you'll be running a lower pressure but the "recommended" rebound setting it will be way too damped.
FWIW I always ran pressures (Rock Shox) well below the weight recommendation.
While you are not wrong, spring weight and rider weight are closely related.
It only shows a weight bracket for both pdf files(no pressures there) that shows rebound, so no need to get into technicalities. I just look for which bracket is the actual recommended step for me, which means should I follow the weight bracket in relation to the air pressure I've chosen or not.
In the first image it first says a weight range and on the same bracket it shows a recommended pressure. If I bump up 2 steps from 180-190lbs to 160-170lbs and try 82PSI should I then follow that weight bracket for when I chose rebound(remember that each weight bracket has a psi number assigned to it so weight bracket means pressure/sag)?
Then I also need to know why Pivot recommends LSR/HSR 8/7(out from closed) while Fox recommends LSR/HSR 6/5(out from closed) when we look at the same 160-170lbs weight bracket? It almost feels as if they assume most are 2-3 steps up thus needing faster rebound for the lower chosen pressure.
When I ride through chunder with lots of consecutive hard hits I feel the same smack in the face feeling through the bars each time and not as if it gradually becomes worse and worse for each hit. That's why I do not think it's packing up, so my gut at least tell me the rebound is too fast, but I also feel my springrate is too stiff so there are more than on thing wrong in this mix.
This is why I'm just trying to figure out the actual recommended baseline and start from there again, and do a bracketing session to see where I end up.
You wrote "The other aspect is that in the pdf from Pivot it says they find riders are running 2-3 pressure settings below the recommended pressure for their weight.".
Did Pivot already make this offset in their table? Thus the offset in Pivot clicker settings vs. FOX clicker settings?
First rule of thumb is follow the weight bracket for the pressure you set.
You can test this. Set the rebound to where the tyre doesn't bounce off the ground. Add pressure to the fork. See that without changing the rebound setting the fork now does bounce off the ground when you compress and release it. Thus you need to increase pressure damping.
As Primoz says: higher pressure requires more rebound damping. The difference between the rebound settings in the fox and pivot manuals are like 2 clics off, you’re going to go do bracket testing anyways, I wouldn’t worry too much about being one or two clicks off either way at the start…
It sounds like what you're describing has nothing to do with fast rebound (harsh through bumps). If we were talking about slow rebound, as you eluded to, that could be creating packing and harshness. It sounds like either your air pressure is too firm (harsh spring feeling), or your compression is too soft (blowing through the top end of travel into harsher spring rate zone).
And yet, it seems like you really want to slow down rebound. Is there another reason why you want to turn the red knob that you haven't mentioned? Does the rebound speed or the fork feel nervous, twitchy, or bouncy? Does it feel unsettled? Or does the faster rebound speed just feel strange and unfamiliar?
If you're running the Fox recommended rebound settings, my guess is the rebound settings are faster than what you're used to. This is a good thing. In my observation, most mountain bikers run their rebound too slow because it feels weird when their bike moves around under them, so they turn the red knob to settle things down and make it feel more familiar. Instead, most intermediate riders and above will adapt to faster rebound fairly quickly in their riding style, and then benefit from the increased traction and smoother rider forever.
TLDR: I wouldn't mess with the rebound speed yet. Try other things first. And just to humor me, try more compression before you try a softer spring rate. Try adding 4 clicks of low speed and 2 clicks of low speed compression just for the sake of experimentation.
I've been using the pdf from Pivot for all the settings, and this time around I want to at least start from the settings from Fox's chart.
My compression settings sit at the recommended LSC/HSC 5/2 (out from open). There's no mention of compression recommendation per springrate, only a ballpark starting point of clicks. I will also alter the compression settings during my bracketing session, I just did not want to add more elements into my request than I felt necessary(because I'm going to do a full bracketing session so both compression AND rebound will be altered and check and what ever else....). So, here's what I've done today in the shed:
Fork: I bumped up 2 steps on recommendation for airpressure and set it to 82PSI(previous was 89PSI) which is about 21.25% sag. As I'm going to do a bracketing session I wanted this time to follow the recommendations from Fox instead of the chart from Pivot, and use that as the baseline. That means:
LSR/HSR 6/5 (Out from closed)
I know the chart from Pivot want 2 clicks faster of both LSR and HSR so it's a quick swap back and forth on the trail to see who's more right. It obviously needs to be said it doesn't mean I end up with either settings in the end, I just know I need to do a new session because primarily the springrate has been too hard.
Just as a parking lot test the Fox recommended rebound settings feels nicer, but I know that doesn't automatically mean it's going to work well on the trails. That's why I know it's just the starting point and I want to start with a slower rebound place just to feel it, and just add on from there if it's completely out of whack.
On top of that I went down from 0.7(that's stock from Pivot) to 0.4 tokens in my float x shock, and will try that with the same sag and rebound/compression settings as before because I only want see what that one change will do. I'd like to use more of the travel of the shock as well, so next ride will tell me how much that difference will be.
Ok, back from todays ride. All I can say is my fork has just had all the wrong settings for me and what I ride. The first thing was too high springrate. The second thing is an error on my end, when it comes to rebound. At some point when I have checked my sag when both compression and rebound should be in fully open, I forgot to turn the dials all the way opposite to full closed before I started adding clicks. This means wrong rebound for this springrate, as well as the springrate was wrong for me(compression settings for that setup is irrelevant because the whole setup was just wrong, and springrate + the rebound settings made the most wrong).
It also seems like the recommended rebound settings from Pivot is pretty much bang on because they seem to have accounted for that most people will actually bump up 2-3 brackets and run with a softer springrate. That's why I decided to just use their recommendations as the baseline, and just see.
For context: I used a 30 second section of moderately fast trail down a hill for the testing, which has a bit of everything.
My first run I used these settings:
82PSI
HSR/LSR 7/8 (out from closed)
HSC/LSC 5/10 (out from closed)
First run I felt the front to back wasn't balanced, so the now less progressive rear shock(0.7 tokens down to 0.4 tokens) almost felt like the rear was dragging. I decided to bump up one bracket and go with 78PSI in the fork, as well as making the rebound faster to go with the lower pressure.
Second run with these settings:
78PSI
HSR/LSR 8/9 (out from closed)
HSC/LSC 5/10 (out from closed)
The front to back immediatly felt more balanced, but now it was apparent I needed more midstroke support, so I decided to go for a third run and just add more compression.
Third run settings:
78PSI
HSR/LSR 8/9 (out from closed)
HSC/LSC 4/8 (out from closed)
Now everything just clicked. It just felt right, both front and rear. That's why I decided to stop and just continue the ride to see how I felt after more variation. All I can say now once the ride is over is this worked better than I expected. It deals a lot better with the small bump sensitivity, and it got support so it feels smoother and more in control. I got more traction, and most importantly I mostly just felt fatigued in my arms and not just pain.
When I bought the bike the shop set it up for me and I remember the fork had about 100 psi in it, and that's a very very substantial difference if we only look at springrate. I believe that's why i haven't realled dared to go any lower than 89psi, and look where I'm at now with 78psi just feeling spot on.
I ride technical trails in the mountain so my speed is mostly slow to moderate. I have no need for gravity settings because that isn't what I ride.
All I will finish off with really is to say that it takes a while to understand that you should ignore most of mtb related stuff online because each year it's just more and more focus on downhill and gravity, which is just not what most people do with their bikes. That's why most people need less progressivity and dial in stuff to their own actual needs. I just wish I started sooner.
If you're REALLY serious about working on your suspension, this might interest you:
LABA7 Launches Manual Shock Vacuum Bleed Pump
A reliable, professional-grade vacuum bleeder built for enthusiasts, small workshops, and hands-on technicians.
Enthusiasts, entry-level mechanics, and workshops that service shocks occasionally will have access to a professional-grade vacuum bleeding tool without the cost of automation. LABA7 announces the release of its new Manual Shock Vacuum Bleed Pump, launching by the end of July 2025. The hand-built unit delivers clean, air-free shock servicing at a more accessible price point.
“This product came directly from user requests,” said Andrius Liškus, CEO of LABA7. “We saw a need for a solution that fits between DIY setups and fully automated machines. Something dependable, built to last, and easy to operate in any setting.”
Liškus adds, “The Manual Shock Bleeder also reflects our ongoing commitment to serve not just elite race teams, but also smaller workshops and passionate individuals who look for quality and affordability.”
Built for real-world use, the Manual Shock Vacuum Bleed Pump offers consistent performance without automation. It’s compact, rugged, and constructed from the same premium components as LABA7’s top-end models.
The unit features two 2-liter internal tanks. It can service two shocks at once and is operated manually using the gauge and control valves. Vacuum level is fixed; pressure is user-adjustable.
Price: €1800 (excl. VAT). Delivery begins in July-August 2025.
This plug-and-play system supports all LABA7 adapters for MTB, motorcycle, and automotive dampers. It’s ideal for technicians who need clean, air-free bleeding, without the need for firmware or presets.
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Awesome! You can get them in the US from https://www.envelo.cc/products/laba7-dynos-and-vacuum-pumps who also stock SR Suntour products.
I am not sure this is correct, but I would disagree about the LSC adjuster doing nothing in a NSR product.
Hey,
a little head-scratcher for me, I could use your help, ideas, insight:
I own a Ripmo V2 and a RAAW Madonna and ride them a lot in rough terrain. 6ft/1.82m/77kg, long legs, long arms, size large frames, flat pedals. I am not a pro, but have been riding mtbs for 25+ and can ride EDR tracks rather comfortably, albeit not comfortably at race pace ;-)
I rarely destroy wheels and can get away with gravity tires without inserts. I do jump and drop, but don´t do the scary big and risky stuff (anymore). I couldn´t ride a WC DH track because of the big gaps and jumps, therefore. I am interested in bike tech and understand the functionality of my suspension and its adjustment, kinematics of my frames to some extent and also have experience with bracketing, use bracketing and am pretty satisfied with my bike setup.
One aspect of rear suspension baffles me however. Both my bikes (and several other similar AM/ENDUROish) frames I´ve owned in the past hurt my ankle / ankle joints / ligaments thereabouts - when ridden with certain shocks (mostly small volume shocks with lighter damping tunes).
I can really push speeds in rough terrain, jump, drop and charge on my Madonna with a good fork and a well setup big shock like a FLOAT X2, the VIVID AIR, some coil shocks all day long without any pain. (Madonna with 65mm stroke on 60mm rocker for almost 170mm of travel)
When I put a DPX2, a FLOAT X, a Super Deluxe (2024 model) in there, same stroke, same travel, proper setup (imho) - and I then ride fast and without taking it easy especially on dry, hardpack terrain, my ankles, ankle joints or maybe the muscles and ligaments around there start to hurt.
I don´t bottom out to the end of travel, there is a little bit left, but I think these shocks and their specific tunes might use a good portion of the travel faster. I am not that concerned with small bump sensitivity, but rather what´s going on deeper in the stroke seems to be important, once your not just bumbling along at slow speed.
Now on my RIPMO V2 (which I love) I´ve been struggling with rather severe pain in my ankles, when I ride it fast. Of course it has less travel than the Madonna, but only a centimetre. I´ve tried three different shocks. A Super DELUXE air with HBO was bad, felt harsh always, thought that was the character of the bike.
Then I tried a Float X, which works surprisingly well, but once I start to push it, it just gobbles up all it´s travel, on takeoffs more than landings or square edges. When I add a bigger spacer there´s some travel left, but it makes the shock harsher overall.
When I add pressure and go to 25% sag on the Ripmo, squareedges get so jarring, that my ankles feel sore almost instantly.
I don´t feel packing down or harsh metallic bottom-outs though.
Now I put a RS VIVID Ultimate air on the Ripmo, standard aftermarket tune (which I love on the Madonna) and it feels a lot more plush than the Float X, less ankle pain, but only if I ride it with a bit more than 30% sag, which results in less support around the sag point than I´d like. The bike looses its speedy feel and settles a bit into the rear when climbing. Pedal lever helps and pushes the rear end up on tarmac climbs and steeper fire roads.
With 28-30% sag the Vivid becomes super harsh on square edges however.
I´ve experimented with HS compression on the VIVID, as that is my best guess for this "problem". The Float X doesn´t have a HS adjustment.
Suprisingly when I rode a DPX2 with a standard CM/RM tune on my Madonna, it was similar. When I rode fast on hard packed trails with jumps and compressions, my feet got numb on the soles and I could feel my ankles...
Same pace, same trail, same conditions on the Madonna were absolutely fine and pain free on a X2 or simililar, even though the shock did use quite a bit less of the stroke than the DPX2. I owned a Ripley for a short time. Incredibly fun, but bottomed and out or killed my ankles from looking at it, once I rode trails I enjoy. Geometry felt secure and fine though, but my body didn´t after riding it.
Any ideas what I could to to make the Ripmo less harsh?
Try these funky long flat pedals?
Titanium ankles at age 42?
My guess would be that with the smaller volume shocks you are running into the progression ramp of both the shock and the rear suspension design. You're hitting the progression ramp and your ankles can't support the force anymore and are straining. That's why the X2 feels better but uses less travel. With the smaller shocks you're blowing through travel without dissipating the energy and crashing into the ramp up.
I would try removing volume reducers but increasing compression especially low speed. More LSC should help prevent blowing through travel from body movement.
You may also need to increase pressure and/or HSC to dissipate more force before you get to the ramp up.
Lastly speed up LSR to help the shock ride higher in it's stroke and stay away from the ramp up.
Thanks! I’ve experienced what you are describing on my Fox 38.
It is much smoother / comfortable in rough terrain when it is slightly oversprung, because it recovers much better. And I also like it better when the air spring is configured more linear, but firm.
I’d think more HSC could help to dissipate more energy over a large part of the stroke.
I’ll try that again and maybe I’ll try a smaller spacer with more pressure and more HSC as well. One variable at a time…
Possibly not enough HSC - those shocks (DPX2, SDLX, Float X) often come with tunes that have very soft high speed which would feel how you describe. They just blow through travel too easily and don't control the impacts well enough. The Float X2 usually has a lot more damping than all of those shocks as well as a more linear spring curve. The Float X is probably easiest to retune with a more appropriate setting, especially if you remove the extra free bleed from the base valve. It has a fairly large volume air spring too so I find with the appropriate valving they can be very good air shocks
Thanks for your input!
I´ll have a look at that. As silly as it sounds - the sleek silhouette of the Float X pleases me on the Ripmo. Also it´s simplicity.
I´ll give a retune a try (or rather my local tuner will). I´ll report back in a couple of weeks!
Very much appreciated!
Seems like there’s some good problem solving going on here, so I’ll throw my hat/bike in the ring. I recently built up a V3 Transition Sentinel with the stock suspension (Super Deluxe Ultimate/Lyrik Ultimate), and have been really enjoying the geometry, but having a hell of a time getting the suspension dialed in. It seems like no matter what I do, I end up bottoming out the shock every run, but ending up with 15-20mm leftover on the fork (currently running 85 PSI in the fork, 206 PSI in the shock, for my 190ish pound riding weight). The imbalance in travel utilization seems to suggest less pressure in the fork and more in the shock, but I’ve also been struggling with the bikes tendency to pitch forward under braking, which seems to point towards a firmer fork and softer shock. I’ve checked to make sure there are no volume spacers in the fork, and I’m up to 6 volume spacers in the shock with HSC and LSC fully closed, with no reduction in frequency of bottom outs. Any ideas at all would be extremely welcome.
Add pressure to the shock.
I find that balancing front and rear can be tricky because changes at one end affect the other.
Increasing pressure on the rear shock will lower the travel usage and help prevent bottom out. I find that if the rear end is too soft I use less fork travel since the bike can just leverage against the rear shock instead of the fork moving.
Quick question for you all:
I'm not a Kashima fanboy, so is it worth looking at getting a Factory 38 w/ GRIPX2?
Or just buy a GRIPX2 damper and put that in my OE Performance 38?
100% this
Old post, I know, but figured I'd comment since I've had just about every fork that uses 3 chamber air springs incl a RUNT and just saw this.
It's easy to get fixated on the pressures in each chamber, but a critical part of this is the difference in pressures between the two positives. You could have your ramp/IRT/whatever chamber perfect but if your main is too low, then it'll spike and ramp harshly, causing all sorts of issues. The reverse is also true. Having the pressures exactly right in both is less critical than having the gap correct. The tendency for suggested settings in all of them except EXT is to be excessively progressive and harsh unless combined with a lot of compression damping.
IME it's important to look at this as a whole system rather than individual pressures and focus on the gap between the two chambers. If the gap is small, then the spring will be more linear and coil-like, if the gap is more significant then it'll ramp harshly and be more progressive feeling. The bigger the gap, the more compression damping is required to keep velocities under control and avoid that spiked feeling from the spring hitting the ramp point constantly. Strangely enough, both the EXT and Ohlins for me at recommended settings were much less harsh with the HSC wound in nearly all the way.
So if you find it harsh, try either increasing main pressure or reducing ramp pressure, generally the former. In a lot of cases, backing off ramp pressure will have a lesser effect because I find the tendency most times is to run insufficient main pressure, which will still feel harsh because you are bumping the progression point. Sometimes you have to meet in the middle and adjust both.
With IRT in the Mezzer, for instance, I find ~20-25psi gap is best for me, tracks well, and isn't harsh. The Ohlins, EXT, and RUNT all operate off different volumes, so pressures are different but the same principle applies (I also don't remember what gaps I settled in on these).
As others mentioned I would add more pressure to the shock - I definitely find Transition bikes bottom quite easily and most people need to run a bit less sag/higher spring rates than expected. One of those designs where you might have to trade off a little bit of compliance for support and bottoming resistance, but I would keep going higher in pressure to see how it feels.
15-20mm left over in the fork isn't a huge concern, you will almost always use less travel up front and when you stiffen up the shock you might find it uses a little more. I do also find the Lyrik compromises support for compliance in the same way as the rear, and more than something like a Zeb, 38 or even 36 does.
@Filledwithfire - Kashima is a little harder wearing which is less useful in a fork but seems to make a difference in the shock, and the factory forks get better bushings and dust wipers. But in reality a performance fork with the Grip X2 and SKF seals is probably 95% as good as the factory one so I wouldn't worry about buying a whole new fork when you already have a 38
Get the damper, there is next to no difference. The performance might have different bushings, but if they are not smooth, you can have them calibrated with your next service.
There has been considerable discussion on multiple forums here on Vital and elsewhere regarding bushing alignment, stanchion/slider alignment, damper rod binding (new Fox dampers in Podium and '26 36 have mods to minimize this) and the small bump sensitivity people seem to want being compromised by these factors.
Yet when you convert one of the Fox or Rockshox forks available today to a coil, it seems that the small bump sensitivity is far superior and these binding issues appear to be much less of a problem.
Perhaps its the air spring in our modern forks that is causing most of the diminished performance...
I'd love to hear some of the experts weigh in on this.
Its well known that even good air spring can create up to 50% of the overall friction if the fork is not a lemon.
The seals need to be tighter with an air spring to stop the air from leaking, causing extra friction. This is well known.
A misaligned chassis or incorrectly sized bushings however will affect both air and coil equally.
I wouldn’t say that air springs are “causing diminished performance”, I think air springs are the best they have ever been right now and are no longer outperformed by coil springs.
There ARE however common occurrences of bad QC within the industry that need to be addressed.
Yup it certainly is, air springs can add a pretty huge amount of friction which can never be fully eliminated - especially in the low speed/high frequency bump scenario where the fork has to change direction very quickly. The higher the pressure inside, the worse it gets too which is why coil springs make such a massive difference when you convert someones fork
Would it make sense to burnish bushings on a fox 36 before converting it with smashpot v2?
I never get close to using full travel on it, but I've thought that's mostly because I got more travel than I need for what I ride. That said, I also read people mention binding etc will easily limit this as well, so how much affects what in my case I cannot really say for sure. It's the same for the Float X rear shock, and I mostly have 1/3 left of travel in both ends.
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