Hello Vital MTB Visitor,
We’re conducting a survey and would appreciate your input. Your answers will help Vital and the MTB industry better understand what riders like you want. Survey results will be used to recognize top brands. Make your voice heard!
Five lucky people will be selected at random to win a Vital MTB t-shirt.
Thanks in advance,
The Vital MTB Crew
I’ve always thought the Butcher felt much less DHF-y and that was why I like it - at least on the 2.3 the gap between the rolling and cornering knobs is a lot smaller, though the overall tread pattern is similar. Now I have a better time on front tires with more evenly spaced knobs - I’m not the most committed cornerer of all time so it’s nice to be able to trust a partial lean.
I tried the butchers 3 years ago or so in both the 2.4(?) and 2.5. Interestingly, I distinctly remember the 2.5 being very DHF like while the 2.4s were almost DHR like.
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher' when running inserts then without. I was getting some rock/rim strikes with a DD 27.5x2.5 dhr2 at 26-27 psi, and in lieu of bumping up tire pressure further, I decided to throw a tannus insert in back. A few rides in, I'm reminded of an experience I had with double down's a while ago where I thought that they actually felt firmer/harsher with inserts then without.
Flash forward to this previous experience and watching some cathro interviews with mechanics recently (I think it was last week, or maybe two weeks ago) asking about inserts. There were some comments that the pro riders felt that they didn't like how the tires felt with the inserts, some suggesting it was due to the air volume difference and the tires feeling progressive with the inserts in place.
I typically don't pay a ton of attention to what the pros are doing when it comes to applying those things to my own riding. I'm a middle aged, expert rider... call it local fast middle aged guy... but I'm an absolute jerry compared to the pros. In this case, I wonder if the progression is what I'm feeling on certain events that are compressing the tire.
For a while, I have known that I'm past the exo stage and figured that I could get away with an EXO+ & insert on my trail bike and DD/DH on enduro and ebike. Lately, I've been thinking that I may need to go with DD on my trail bike, and just go straight to DH casing on my ebike and park bike. I don't send as hard as the pros, but when I do !#$^ stuff up, a wheel tends to die an untimely death all the same.
Now I'm rambling... am I crazy for feeling this? Does anyone else have a similar experience with inserts and perceived harshness?
Did you go down in pressure at all with the inserts? I would expect any tire, regardless of casing, to be “harsher” at the same PSI with an insert than without. In experimenting with pressures when I went to inserts I found my happy place to be 2-3 psi lower than what I would have run previously.
For reference I’m a big guy riding in generally high average speed, rocky terrain who has a history of ending wheels and tires. Currently running DHR DD rear with either a Tannus or CC on trail, enduro and ebike.
I do usually drop 2-3 psi. I did in this case I did the same, but I was still getting rim strikes so I had to go back to 26psi in back (on my ebike in this case). Even with the reduced pressure that I ran briefly, I noticed that there was still more perceived harshness with the inserts then without.
This isn't something that I experienced in exo+ tires, even if I'm keeping the pressure largely the same. It's definitely noticeable to me on DD/DH casing tires. Maybe too much sidewall support is too much of a good thing?
Everything is a trade off right? In the quest to increase support and rim protection we sacrifice some compliance and trail “feel.”
In the name of bro science and so that we are attempting to speak the same language I am interested in understanding what it is that you are describing as harshness to see if it at all aligns with my experience. Is this an increase in overall chatter through the bike and into feet/ hands or more of an amplification of large square edge type hits? Both?
100%, Not a fan of the feeling of inserts and even still, don't trust that its the magic bullet to saving my rims. On my enduro bike I can't run anything less than DH casing tires, speeds are too much for anything less unless I want to be replacing rims regularly, DT EX511's. I have a prior gen SJEvo that I can get away with EXO+ up front and DD in the rear but I have to watch what I am riding. FWIW I run between 26-30psi in the rear. I still hear rim strikes at least a few times per ride but not rim killer strikes, just the ones that let you know that you could be playing with fire...
Have you thought about FR541s?
I recently spent a few weeks going back to running DDs again after having been on Conti DH & Enduro casings for like a year. My impression is that DD has a nice damp and compliant feeling, but really not much more sidewall support than EXO+. I don't have to worry about flats where I ride but I got more front rim strikes on roots running DD than I get with Conti, even running 1 psi higher. DD feels nice on my hands, especially on the front wheel, but I wouldn't count on it doing anything really to protect rims (I've broken a WAO front rim with DD). If you want rim protection from your tires, you've got to run something stiffer like Maxxis DH, Conti DH, or Schwalbe Gravity.
Good feedback everyone. I do agree that DD's feel nice, but the sidewall support is more or less the same as EXO+. I'm relieved to find out I'm not crazy. I'm going to continue trying out the DD's with inserts for my ebike, and see if I can get through the year on the reserve AL/HD hoop that I have on it without murdering it. I typically murder 1 ex511/reserve AL-HD per year, so that wouldn't be pretty standard.
I think it's time to bite the bullet and just go to DH casing rear tires for my enduro bike and ebike and ditch the inserts. I think I will keep the DD front tire. If I were to blow up a front rim, then that'll just be a badge of honor as I've only done that once and it's still a great story to this day.
Unrelated, my wife's contribution to this thread, would be that she "fixes" (her words, not mine) the Assegai hot patch on her tires to read "AssegaL". Other than aggressively proclaiming "Maxxis for Life" anytime someone tries to suggest a different tire setup to her, this is her prevailing opinion about mountain bike tires.
Yeah, after last season i've been thinking about it alot, but also debating about build a set of WAO unions. Been missing the feel of carbon rims on my bigger bike.
This is amazing!
I recommend looking into WAO Convergence rims instead due to better vertical compliance and better bracing angle for spokes. I personally found the Unions deep U shape profile pretty harsh on rough terrain.
On the topic of tires, I think I have a new favorite for fast enduro/DH riding. Maxxis HR3 Exo+ front and Kryptotal Re Soft rear. I loved the Argotal last season but the shorter and wider side knobs on the HR3 give such a satisfying locked in feel no matter how blown the trails are. I know it is a blunder to mix tire brands but a DHR2 feels too draggy for long pedal days so Krypto Re is the way to go for me. The Argotal now lives on my alpine wheelset for riding scree etc.
I can concur on the Convergence vs Union statement
I've heard that some like the extra compliance of the newer profile, but I was never against the unions, they were always well damped feeling rims. However, given the option of offset spoke holes or not I will always take offset drilling above most else. Even the 2mm of the unions allows for almost a 10% gain in spoke tension differential, probably my favorite part of building/re-building reserve rims is the 4mm offset. Horses for courses...
I went through all of the Semi-slicks and rarely did the lack of braking traction bother me but the lack of climbing traction always caught me out.
But I had 3 issues with them:
1) They flat easy right in the center tread
2) They are really slow when leaned over and it's very noticeable. If you are doing a trail ride where you lean a lot in fast sweepers it feels like you are dragging the brakes in the turns, you give up a lot of speed.
3) For AM riding I found the Wicked Will in the back superior in nearly every way (except cost and maybe wear). The WW was better rolling (especially when leaned over) had notably better climbing and braking traction, and probably only gave up 15% in leaned over traction, which in the rear I don't really care about. The WW is a GREAT rear tire on a pedal bike especially if you are sensative to rolling resistance.
Have you ridden a Rekon and if so how do the two compare?
For those who have run the Enduro and DH casings in the Conti Gravity line, do you think the casing difference has a big effect on pedaling and rolling speed? Just got out for the first ride on my new Sentinel yesterday with the DH KryptFr SS and DH Xynotal Soft, and found the bike to feel quite draggy and stiff even with the fast rolling tread out back. I’m not a particularly light rider, but I’m starting to wonder if I should step down to the Enduro casings now that you can get the Supersoft tires.
I think at the end of the day it's a mixture of casing, copound and tread. I normally ran a 3C (MaxxTerra) up front and a dual compound rear in EXO casing (ranging across HR2, Aggressor, DHR2, Assegai) and everything was in line with each other, except the Assegai - that thing is an anchor. DC or 3C didn't make a significant differenece in any case, neither did moving to a DD 3C Maxxis (forgot which tread to be honest, I think it was a HR2).
Moving to Wild Enduro racing line Michelins (DH casing, soft rubber) it was like a freaking tanker anchor. I was getting passed on rolling descents by friends if I didn't pedal (they didn't). Now on Trail caisng Soft Magic Mary/Big Betty combo I again don't see a major drag coming from the tyres.
Based off this I'd say DH casing does have a factor in a tyre being slow rolling as does a softer compound. Tread can influence it, but I'd say it's third on the list or at least only influences things in the extremes.
About 5-6 rides in on dual Albert Soft radials. Was out of town so missed 2 weeks.
Just ordered a Magic Mary Trail Pro super soft radial for the front. I want a little more of a direct feel on lean in the front than I can get out of the Albert. The Albert side knobs can be moved around quite a bit with a thumb on them. There is also no real channel on lean like I'm used to with a DHF that gives me a locked in feel once the lean angle is sufficient. They break loose and start to slide in a predictable manner at a reasonably high threshold and I have not lost the front completely, but I'd like a little more confidence when leaning over far, so gonna try the Mary. Haven't ridden a Mary in 8 years or so...
Loving the radial dampening characteristics, high speed rolling, tall profile, and wear of these tires so far. I believe there is a lot of potential in this casing and I am excited for other makers to start releasing tires with their own version of radial casings.
Sorry, but I've never tested the Rekon. Looks like a great rear trail tire.
If you care about max traction, well buy the max traction tires. But if you are on a trail bike and want the max overall speed, there is a lot to be gained by going with 'just enough traction' tires. It also can make you feel like quite the hero at times, sliding around, gaining speed everywhere.
On my Relay however, the parameters are different:
Up front I'm now on the Vee Tire C Attack HPL, GXE Core (this is the 'light' 1275g casing), Full 40 (soft durometer) and so far, it's definitely working a bit better for me than the Radial MM. The Vee doesn't have long knobs to cut through the looser rocks, but more like flat closer knobs in a perfect semi-circle to have surface area on the base ground. So far, it's working very well.
In the rear I went with the 27.5 x 2.5 DHR2 DH. It's certainly good enough but I preferred both the 2.6 Albert gravity soft, but my favorite has probably been the 2.5 Aggressor out back. The Relay is not a powerful e-bike and that DHR2 really drags, but also, it's a flat tire that fights leaning the bike over.
At first, I took the non-radials out for a ride at radial tire pressures, and that was a total error. Gosh dang they were harsh. But dropping 5 psi made those harsh feelings fade. Are they as plush as Radials? No. But once at speed and psi of both is correct, I don't know if I could tell much difference. Radials are super obvious at slow speeds and normal PSI like on a test ride, but once you increase pressures and go faster it's not much of anything.
I should also add that life has really gotten in the way of my riding lately and I'm not the finely tuned tire testing machine that I usually am. LOL
Rekon is excellent on hardpack but once you have a bit of loose stuff on top, the braking performance suffers a lot. Also the Maxterra side knobs do not last very long due to deep siping and soft rubber. I started tearing the side knobs off after maybe 12-14 rides. Dual compound is more drifty but much longer lasting. I've found Forekaster rear to be a good alternative for loose over hard conditions and lasts longer while being just as fast rolling.
Grid Trail is at least as good as EXO+. I have never flatted that casing on the front or rear since I started running Specialized over Maxxis three years ago, but most of the time I'm on full gravity casing rear (have never flatted that casing, too).
I have the new Butcher/Eliminator combo mounted up now in full gravity 2.6/2.4 on an enduro bike, so will give some feedback in a few weeks.
I haven't tried the new Grid Trail casing, but the old ones really were made of paper. The new Grid Trail tires are a lot heavier than the old ones, the same way the new Bontrager tires are 200+ grams heavier too for the equivalent casing. The tough thing with Specialized tires is that they'll change things in their product line without changing the name at times. For instance, the Butcher has had multiple tread patterns, but they're all called the Butcher. Casings and rubber compounds change. At least they rolled out the T7 and T9 thing so we have some sense of a new rubber compound, but I think the T9 Cannibals are a different rubber than T9 Butchers.
The trail casing has been untouched since either 22 or 23. They are much burlier than before. I can get away with riding those on my trail bike if I am careful, I cant say the same about EXO+. I've been told, from a pretty reliable source, that the T9 is the same across all the tires. What makes the difference is the base rubber durometer and how much of the T9 is laid on top of the base compound. Everyone is using a harder/stiffer base rubber for support and the ratio of base to cap, T9 in this case, can have a very large influence in how the knobs flex and deform. From my own squish testing in the garage, the new butchers have more T9 and less base like the Cannibals as a way to generate more grip. As a result, they had to make the knobs physically much larger to withstand the resulting deformation of a bike being pushed through a corner. *The last two sentences are pure theory so take that with a grain of salt. Maybe we can get some tire brand experts to chime in...
Not sure if links to the other site are frowned upon here, but new Maxxis tread pattern.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-new-maxxis-tire-on-jackson-goldstones-santa-cruz-v10.html
Looks like it could be a DHF 2 and maybe bridge the gap between Asagai and HR3.
picture of the tread pattern for anyone who is too lazy to click the link.
Isn't Conti's approach the exact opposite, soft innards and harder wearing outside layer?
Don’t believe so, but I’ll try to confirm, I have more tires in my garage than I could probably ever ride in the next few years, might be worth hacking a few up to measure durometer across the knob layer… I have one or two of the softs and a few pairs of the SS dh casing. This just a selection of what’s sitting out…
Post a reply to: Tire chat (nerds only)