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Same... also on an Enduro that came with the SD Select+, and have been running a 65mm stroke Storia V3. I will say, I was really impressed with the SD before I swapped.
A couple of notes on this one.
1. Coil shock strokes are defined with the bottoming bumper removed. So a 65mm stroke shock can only achieve a maximum of 60-62mm due to the solid height of the bumper.
2, On-board data acquisition is not able to explain why one shock is better performing than another as it's only capable of telling you "what" not "why". A good use of the data is defining what suspension velocities you should use for your dyno tests via tools such as histogram data.
Darren
I designed that out of Super Deluxe Coil- we measured 'solid' height of bumpers (I think at our test lab max of 5,000 lbf) and designed stroke length around that. So a RS SDLXC 65 stroke should actually get close to 65mm stroke if you smash it hard enough.
Remove the bumper and measure the shaft- should be maybe 1-2mm longer than the stroke length.
Edit- also agree with Darren about data... I'd probably do the test blind and look at data after ranking everything. Then maybe see if you can make improvements based on data comparison?
Thanks folks, some good info.
It looks like Vorsprung did the same as @Dave_Camp as the stroke (without bumper) on the Telum measures over 65mm. Both Bomber CRs and the DHX measure under 65mm, I'll include this data as well. Bottom out bumpers play a significant role, and it will be interesting to see the differences between all of them as there is quite a bit of variance in total height and durometer between the test shocks.
I have seen some bottom out bumpers that do very little, such as what Fox puts in the newer Float and Float X. It is a soft 10mm MCU bumper that will squish down enough to allow the bottom out plate to pass completely through the bumper to the other side. I have seen a number of Float X's where this has happened. It was initially thought be an assembly issue at the factory, but in fact the plate is moving from one side of the bumper to the other after a hard bottom out. There was someone that posted a video of this occurring, they had an empty/uncharged shock in a vice and smacked it with a mallet and the metal bottom out plate went from one side of the bumper to the other. Here is a pic that shows the plate on the wrong side of the bumper on a '24 Float, I don't think the PB guys even realized it.
I look forward to trying to correlate the "performance" of the shock with the data from the logger. This will be done after all the run times and perceptions are recorded. The data system is the latest and greatest from BYB Tech, working with @enricorodella22 has been excellent so far.
For those with experience using a data logger, do you use something like MATLAB to help shift through the immense amount of data that is compiled?
Thanks for that DC....wasn't aware. 👍 I always find it interesting how absolute the MTB world is when it comes to dampers when at the end of the day there are so many variables with manufacturing and assembly tolerance stack-up. Ultimately 2mm of stroke isn't even tangible on the trail.
Doesn't BYB Tech come with a pretty robust analyzing software? If you're using an off-the-shelf suspension logging system MATLAB shouldn't be necessary.
Darren
I made that video - it was funny how many people refused to believe it was possible and aggressively wanted to think that Fox would send that many shocks out like that! O-rings can do it too, its why shocks always have disproportionately large washers to support the bottom out o-ring. But yeah the Float X bumper is pretty weak - the X2 and DHX2 is a little better.
The software for BYB and most data loggers is enough for the majority of what you are looking at - position and velocity distributions etc. Each damper will always have slightly different numbers but that doesn't make one better than the other. You might compare things like bottoming resistance/HBO effectiveness which is pretty easy with the standard software. If you wanted to dive deeper in to metrics you can use Matlab or Python for something thats free & open source. Even Excel and Google sheets are very useful (but can get overwhelmed with huge data sets)
BYB does have solid PC software and a nice phone app to use with their system. However, when you have fork/shock data + wheel speed data + analog brake data + a wheel mounted accelerometer I could see it getting pretty crazy. But that is more tuning of the "overall package" including rider inputs. This study is just based on rear suspension performance, I am starting small.
Speaking of PUSH, it looks like you folks dropped the price of the fork but a good amount. Perhaps an Intend Edge vs PUSH 9.1 test in the future? The new Fox 38 is also rumored to be a USD setup.
I really need to quit my day job sooner than planned. ☺️
Am I understanding what you are saying about that image correctly, that the silver "steel looking", maybe 1-2mm washer (or plate as it seems to be called), at the bottom of damper shaft, originally resided ABOVE the orange bottom out bumper, but due to harsh bottom out events, somehow the bumper jumped over it and they reversed their positions?
If so, that's wild! I never would have guessed that the bumper would stretch that much to get around that plate!
I can see how the plate would be important, as the black ano aluminum piece at the top of the damper shaft is quite a small diameter and doesn't provide much surface area to brace the bumper. That minimal surface area on the black ano aluminum is (assuming I am interpreting correctly) probably a big part of the issue, as the bottom out plate is quite thin, and I can see how it could flex into a sort of conical shape when loaded heavily, encouraging the bumper to stretch around it, but still...WOW, that is a serious rookie mistake for a company that has been producing bike shocks for 30+ years! If we were talking about an Intend shock, I'd be inclined to cut him some slack as it's a small operation with early generation products, but Fox? They should have figured this out long ago.
That's exactly what happens - this was the first time they used a bumper stop instead of an o-ring in shocks like this, but I'm not sure if that still excuses them?
Apparently I only did the video as a story so just added it to reels -
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DHPsZ1xzBsg/?igsh=MTU4cWdicTQ3cHFrbw==
That's nuts
Agreed using programs like MatLab you can do combinations of data to find new learnings. But BYB and SynBike do some some extensive built in data, graphs and comparisons.
Personally when I’m testing a fork or shock, I like to get the comp and reb speeds of each as close to one another within in my window of comfort, because then you can rule out some variables. Then you can decide if the fork is “feeling better”, worse or offers more “performance” or maybe it can’t even get in the window that the rider likes.
@Skunk Works Suspension this is an awesome test and I can’t wait for the results….but funny enough, after seeing a pic of ur test mule, I’m most interested in a review of the intend fork! There’s tons of info out there about every coil shock, but almost no real unbiased and deeply technical reviews of the latest intend stuff! Any chance you could chime in on your thoughts on the intend fork? Seems like at least one other person in this thread shares my sentiment…
Unfortunately winter has made a solid return around here, and the test track is full of mud and snow, so coil shock testing has been put on hold. May as well discuss the Edge as I've had the fork for over a year now, with lots of ride time on it across multiple bikes.
Chassis: The Intend Edge chassis is quite good. It is very stiff fore/aft and does not have the torsional twist issues associated with older USD forks where they can feel loose, sloppy, or vague in terrain like embedded rock. Probably due in large part to the crown, which is immense. Bushing fit and chassis alignment is, and has remained, perfect. This is a big deal that is often overlooked and never checked or tested in the "main stream" fork reviews. Below is a Lyrik, but a good example of proper chassis alignment/bushing fit:
Air Spring: The fork has the latest Intend air spring called the "travelizer". It is a design like Manitou uses where the negative and positive air chamber pressures are set by attaching a shock pump which then connects the two chambers and allows them to equalize (at full extension). There is no dimple in the stanchion like RS, Fox and others use to equalize the chambers. In this regard I prefer the self equalization design with the dimple as I have had a handful of rides where it seems the negative spring will lose pressure and the fork will begin topping out and feeling a bit firmer.
The fork travel can be adjusted from 150mm to 180mm in 1mm increments by attaching a shock pump and then rotating the lower leg. This is a really cool feature in that you don't need any additional air springs and you can set travel wherever you want it. I have run it at 180mm, 172mm, 155mm, etc all with out taking anything apart. But the added complexity of the air spring design itself may contribute to the negative chamber pressure issues mentioned above.
The fork comes with three different bottom caps that allow the main chamber volume to be adjusted. In addition to decreasing the volume (like traditional volume spacers), you can also increase the main chamber volume like what the MRP Noken and Ratio Flux Cap do. There is also a dynamic volume spacer available which adds a small second positive air chamber like the Diaz Designs RUNT. I have been running this and it adds another level to the adjustability factor. You can go from a near coil like linear spring rate, to a super progressive Redbull Rampage ramp up and anywhere in between.
Damper: The damper is similar to a RockShox Charger 2.1 unit in that it is sealed and uses a rubber bladder to deal with the oil displaced by the damper shaft. It is a simple design with clickers for LSC and LSR only, no preloaded shims or dished pistons, and it easy to pull apart and re-valve if so desired. I have been running the rebound close to wide open and will pull it part to decrease rebound damping at some point.
Overall I am a big fan of this fork. It weighs 2270 grams with the dynamic volume spacer installed which is about 50 grams more than a RS ZEB. It is stiff where it needs to be and has never felt harsh or jarring. There is a "speed bump" trail feature I use to test fork bottom out that is basically a high speed natural double that if you don't pull up for you can intentionally smash the fork into the rounded hump of the landing. Out of every fork I have hit with this feature, the Edge felt the best. No jarring bottom out, no trying to yank the bars out of your hands or twist the fork, just a very controlled impact. I have used the Edge on big 180mm enduro bikes and 150mm trail bikes. It works well everywhere, never felt out of place.
Hopefully this answers some questions as I couldn't find much out myself before ordering this fork. The only thing I would change would be a coil spring with some sort of HBO feature like Vorsprung uses for the Smashpot. I feel the additional weight would be worth it for the reliability and consistency the coil spring would offer.
Speaking of USD forks and coil springs, there is a PUSH 9.1 that will be added to the test fleet shortly. Keep your eyes out for a USD showdown between Germany and the USA coming soon(ish).
FWIW, I have an Intend Edge and a Infinity EN.. which I have been using in couple bikes... when I upgraded the old trusty DVO JadeX to a Telum, second A ha ! moment... the change in performance is night and day... same as I experience with the Intend Edge... this just disappears under you.. just works.. I can imagine a Push 9.1 being fantastic as well, its really eye opening what a properly done USD chassis can do.. starting by showing you your rear shock is shit and cannot cope ; )
I find the last sentence pretty interesting. I had that moment when I first rode my '15 Boxxer after some tinkering inside, mostly on the air side. Suddenly I was feeling a lot of harshness from the TTX22m in the back, because the fork just erased the terrain in a way I haven't felt before.
Might sound controversial but I now have Boxxers and SDLXA on both my DH and trail bikes, and with a little shimjob I find them more plush - likely because my riding style suits very progressive suspension and I shove 'em all full of tokens and MegNegs.
Curious what could a shock like Telum offer, but after years on a few Ohlins shocks, some CC (loved it, but my last one was as reliable as a Fox), I genuinely wonder what would it take to get me off RS Air suspension at this point.
A data aquisation based test is not so easy. I have done it with a tuned Fox 38 (tuned by MST), Manitou Mezzer (stock) and an Intend Flash (newest generation).
Main issue for using only data acquisition systems is that you can not say if the damping force is equal or even the spring rate. So it is in the end only a test based on a subjective feeling, riding time and objective date, which is used for a logical explanation of a subjective feeling.
It is better than nothing and it make sense to do it. In the end the result is that you can say which fork is the most suitable for your riding style based on your preferences and how easy or difficult it is to achieve this goal.
Side effect is that you can get some technical hints why you prefer one fork/damper more than another.
For example:
I like the chassis of the Intend. It is already very good. But I am not a big fan of the damping. The rebound is at a specific riding speed to fast (HSR is missing). Compression is a similiar story. But if you are a more chilling rider: no problem. If you are lighter than me (driver ready weight 99kg): no problem.
So I can only say from my point of view that the setup of the Intend damping is not working as good as the damping of the FOX MST. But it does not mean that this is for everybody the same.
I have absolutely no affiliation with Vorsprung, but I thought I might mention here that anyone in the US considering buying one might want to move fast (before questionable tariff policy means they cost 25% more for no reason). I really hope that Vorsprung financials are strong and they can weather a probable nosedive in US-based demand. Such a cool product.
I was (and still am) a proponent of Rockshox, but my first CC coil changed my mind, like your '15 Boxxer. Just another level of damper performance.
I ran RS front and rear for a decade and it was consistent and reliable without fail, and for that reason I still love their stuff -- their QC has been top of the game for a long time. Currently on a SDLX coil that's great but not CC great, which I chalk up mostly to personal preference.
I worked at a shop and test rode just about everything out there, minus the super new stuff like Telum, etc. Everything is so good now it feels like shocks are separated by character traits rather than pure performance advantages (at least from a non-racing intermediate-to-expert rider).
They posted something a while back about this; iirc changing their pricing so most of the cost is a license to their tuning hub (which is not affected by tariffs) and the remainder is attributed to the actual chunk of metal that goes on your bike.
Wow, that is a clever workaround! I knew Steve was a smart guy when it came to suspension engineering, but it sounds like he has a sharp business mind as well.👍
Hahaha he’s still right - Intend only makes air forks! That said, I have an Avy hybrid coil in mine…
Avy in an Intend?
It has been done.
The new hybrid shock was released yesterday - EU only. It is a package with an air fork and the hybrid shock for burly riding. Costs an arm, a leg AND both your kindeys.
Yes, I begged Craig a couple years back to set up his open bath hybrid coil in my Intend Edge. It's a fantastic fork, but I don't think he's done one since (said he didn't want to put it on his site).
I’d asked him about it after seeing yours, he said it required a lot of time and work to make it fit, and realistically the cost just doesn’t make sense for most customers. Fingers crossed the new Fox USD will be an easier fit.
Apologies for the radio silence, the winter/spring transition was a tough one for the test track.
There were some changes made to the testing protocol; the number of test shocks has been reduced from 5 to 3. I want the data to be as accurate as possible, and as such the shocks are all run on the same day back to back. Given that it is a self shuttle situation, it was just not possible to do 11+ runs/day without fatigue being a factor in the times. The pedal back to the start of the track is a steep 15 minute techy climb that requires near maximum effort.
It also took a bit of practice to get consistent effort levels. It's not like road or XC testing where a power meter can be used to ensure a consistent input. The same gear was used for each run, 6-7 cranks off the line and then little to no pedaling. I tried to keep the pumping and pushing the berms to a 80-90% perceived effort level. The result was very consistent times for the first official test session.
The first run for shock #1 was accidentally erased, but still recorded.
Shock #1 2:14:64, 2:14:66 (.02 sec difference)
Shock #2 2:11:91, 2:11:51 (.4 sec difference)
Shock #3 2:13:65, 2:09:67 (This last time is an outlier as a massive thunderstorm was moving in and the lightning was getting bad, I just wanted to get off the exposed ridgeline!)
Needless to say I'm pretty happy with the results so far. Two more sessions with the testing order changed so each shock is tested at each spot in the rotation and hopefully the data stays consistent.
Can you share what shock you prefer or feels best to you?
Not quite yet, I'm going to wait until the next two sessions are complete before getting into that.
After each run I record notes on general feel and "perception of speed" before looking at the actual time. It is already quite interesting in regards to the data, not the results I was expecting for this track.
The shocks being tested are both Marzocchi Bomber CRs (Fluid Focus tune and Avalanche racing tune) and the Vorsprung Telum.
Thank you for updating this as you can. Interesting to see how it plays out. Would be curious to watch a video of a average test lap on whichever stock you prefer at the end of this test.
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