While I'm here. Is it rude to spread my own rumors?
Yesterday I released v2 Digit frames. I don't have a marketing plan so for now I've just posted a list of improvements here: digitbikes.com/blog/changeblog.
I'm also going to start selling a frame-only option, and an aluminum wheel build.
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick...
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick bikes did back in the day is?
Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.
Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard shock, wheras Analog has a strut
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick...
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick bikes did back in the day is?
Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard...
Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.
Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard shock, wheras Analog has a strut
That I saw, yes. But you specifically mentioned you have a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar. Thus me asking what the novelty is. Kinematics wise it is very similar (conceptually) at least to the switch infinity...
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.
They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick...
Well, since we were talking about prior art, I hope you don't mind me asking what the novelty compared to Yeti's switch infinity and/or what Maverick bikes did back in the day is?
Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard...
Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.
Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard shock, wheras Analog has a strut
That I saw, yes. But you specifically mentioned you have a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar. Thus...
That I saw, yes. But you specifically mentioned you have a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar. Thus me asking what the novelty is. Kinematics wise it is very similar (conceptually) at least to the switch infinity...
My question related to @Karabuka asking "does anyone remember when EU said all of the suspension designs do the same thing and therefore do not qualify as patents"? I never heard this before.
Patents should relate to inventions such as novel mechanisms. It's a bit of a stretch to say that any particular arrangement (kinematics) of a mechanism should be patentable. That's something that has been allowed however, which permitted both the DW and VPP patents to exist for instance. Perhaps it's the stretch of scope that they're trying to crackdown on?
It’s not that I’ve had “a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar” more that they’ve had a hard time retaining the information. For instance (this is made up example for illustration), they’ll ask for clarification of how Analog isn’t the same as a 6-bar linkage, I show the difference by counting the pivots; then they’ll ask how Analog is different from a 4-bar linkage, so again I show the difference by counting the pivots. I know it’s just that their agents aren’t familiar with our industry, but it feels like they’re playing with me.
The Trek has 650b front and back for size small. Does it still have a 29er fork? Is it worth even making 650b forks anymore? I get that some people prefer the 650b front wheel esp. in the smaller sizes, but the geometry changes between a 29er fork and 650b fork with a 650b wheel is pretty trivial, esp. for small sizes where the frame is designed to incorporate it
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as...
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.
They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.
Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months now and keep releasing new batches of crazy sale bikes. Get ready for 40-60% off sales of all that previous gen stuff.
I also don't get that Slash 5 limited edition flight attendant build and new colour. Who's really shelling out 10k CAD for a generation old bike when 10k CAD gets you a great new one?
or we (not me) could start a patent question thread?
I’m not opposed to that.
Patents are specifically about novel technology though, so it feels more on topic than (for instance) the repeated mention of BK braking a seat stay, which feels neither tech rumor or innovation related.
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as...
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.
They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.
Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months...
Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months now and keep releasing new batches of crazy sale bikes. Get ready for 40-60% off sales of all that previous gen stuff.
I also don't get that Slash 5 limited edition flight attendant build and new colour. Who's really shelling out 10k CAD for a generation old bike when 10k CAD gets you a great new one?
Someone who has way too much money and doesn't know any better. They're unicorn customers but they do exist.
If I remember correctly, it was Kalle Nicolai and Horst Leitner who invented the horst link and patented it, and Horst Leitner got the patent for America, and Europe was kept for Nicolai to do whatever. Leitner got into a money squeeze and sold his patents to Specialized and European brands could do whatever but sell their bikes in the US - up until the patent expired and several European brands were starting distribution in North America (Canyon amongst others).
The Trek has 650b front and back for size small. Does it still have a 29er fork? Is it worth even making 650b forks anymore? I...
The Trek has 650b front and back for size small. Does it still have a 29er fork? Is it worth even making 650b forks anymore? I get that some people prefer the 650b front wheel esp. in the smaller sizes, but the geometry changes between a 29er fork and 650b fork with a 650b wheel is pretty trivial, esp. for small sizes where the frame is designed to incorporate it
The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support 2 wheel sizes for what are categories that prioritize efficiency, meaning larger wheels. I could see this being a thing in more categories. I would hazard a guess that the industry-wide split in high end bike design, including size range per model, is 90-10 in favour of 29er.
The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support...
The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support 2 wheel sizes for what are categories that prioritize efficiency, meaning larger wheels. I could see this being a thing in more categories. I would hazard a guess that the industry-wide split in high end bike design, including size range per model, is 90-10 in favour of 29er.
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.
Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between wheelsize, offset, and axle sizes, it's a lot of parts to manage.
Bike brands: What have you got in the works for 32"?
no way will 32 be for anything except XC or gravel, right? please? pretty please? make it stop?
I can't imagine what toe overlap would be like for a 32" gravel bike. My giant revolt with 48c tires is already precarious enough. Come to think of it, do you end up with toe overlap on a 32" xc bike with a 68 degree hta with reaches under 450-470?
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between...
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.
Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between wheelsize, offset, and axle sizes, it's a lot of parts to manage.
Bike brands: What have you got in the works for 32"?
Fork makers: Excuse me?
The bike industry is its own worst enemy. Nothing wrong with 32" wheels, however it should recognized as a niche offering. Any tire, rim, fork maker, etc should get a contract in place before designing and opening tooling for a 32" project with a frame brand.
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between...
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.
Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between wheelsize, offset, and axle sizes, it's a lot of parts to manage.
Bike brands: What have you got in the works for 32"?
The bike industry is its own worst enemy. Nothing wrong with 32" wheels, however it should recognized as a niche offering. Any tire, rim, fork maker...
The bike industry is its own worst enemy. Nothing wrong with 32" wheels, however it should recognized as a niche offering. Any tire, rim, fork maker, etc should get a contract in place before designing and opening tooling for a 32" project with a frame brand.
If the niche for 32" wheels is people over 6'6" tall, it's hard to make a business case for making them.
If the niche for 26" wheels is people under 5'6" tall, that's much easier to justify because not only are there grown adults under 5'6" tall, every adult who is over 5'6", was at some time under 5'6".
Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months...
Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months now and keep releasing new batches of crazy sale bikes. Get ready for 40-60% off sales of all that previous gen stuff.
I also don't get that Slash 5 limited edition flight attendant build and new colour. Who's really shelling out 10k CAD for a generation old bike when 10k CAD gets you a great new one?
I hope they have discounts this side of the pond as well.
I originally looked at getting a Trek like 18 months ago. But was told there was NO WAY I was getting a discount, and delivery times were 3-4 months. Went to the other side of town to a specialized shop, got a smoking deal on top of an already discounted msrp, and had the bike the next week. So not a huge fan of Trek here.
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between...
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.
Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between wheelsize, offset, and axle sizes, it's a lot of parts to manage.
Bike brands: What have you got in the works for 32"?
The bike industry is its own worst enemy. Nothing wrong with 32" wheels, however it should recognized as a niche offering. Any tire, rim, fork maker...
The bike industry is its own worst enemy. Nothing wrong with 32" wheels, however it should recognized as a niche offering. Any tire, rim, fork maker, etc should get a contract in place before designing and opening tooling for a 32" project with a frame brand.
“Im sorry did you say niche? Im (big bike company name here) and I see this as a perfect opportunity to convince you, that you need 32” wheels or you suck at riding. Im going to milk this cow till its dead. You say it works best for 6’ 5” tall people? Im sorry but, wrong, it is the next best thing for 5’ 6” tall people. Tell me otherwise and our lawyers will be at your doorstep with a bat. Keep the rubber side down or some shit.” - Scott Bikes probably.
The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support...
The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support 2 wheel sizes for what are categories that prioritize efficiency, meaning larger wheels. I could see this being a thing in more categories. I would hazard a guess that the industry-wide split in high end bike design, including size range per model, is 90-10 in favour of 29er.
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between...
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.
Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between wheelsize, offset, and axle sizes, it's a lot of parts to manage.
Bike brands: What have you got in the works for 32"?
Fork makers: Excuse me?
The clear solution is that we all need inverted forks with swappable crowns. That way you can use the same, noodly, 6 pound fork for for DownCountry, Trail, All Mountain, Enduro, Super Enduro, Freeride (its not dead!), and DH racing! As well as anything from 24" to 32" front wheel sizing!
Pair it to that new Vampire bikes that has a 50mm+ swing in different travel lengths!
I see no downsides, certainly not in weight, tuned stiffness, nor geometry.
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as...
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.
They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.
The fact trek has not aggressively discounted their stock at any point has been an interesting business decision. When the new slash was released I went to trek to see if there was a deal on the old one and at the time they were still asking full price. I think the largest discount I’ve seen on their bikes has been around 25 percent on really old models. Compared to their number one competitor (spec) who seemed to at one point have anything that wasn’t axs on a near 50 percent discount. Meanwhile there are rumors of huge numbers of trek bikes just sitting in warehouses.
Now I could understand tld or fox being pretty protective of their perceived value even at the risk of losing revenue in the short term. But when it comes to bikes isn’t the hardest thing to accomplish is to get a customer to actually get on one? And if there are just way better deals available how do you expect to do that?
I really enjoyed the trek I owned. The lbs I bought it from was great. The bike was good. It’s the only bike I regret selling. But hell the only reason I got it was because it was on a discount.
The lbs (diffirent one I’ve moved) I support is a trek dealer. I really like every experience I’ve had on a trek bike. But I’m not going to rush to replace my perfectly good bike with slightly better trek when there are way better priced options available. And short of another pandemic I don’t see how trek expects the market to recover where they can ask good money for an old model.
While I'm here. Is it rude to spread my own rumors?
Yesterday I released v2 Digit frames. I don't have a marketing plan so for now I've just posted a list of improvements here: digitbikes.com/blog/changeblog.
I'm also going to start selling a frame-only option, and an aluminum wheel build.
Maverick Monolink had the bottom bracket in the middle of the link, wheras Analog has the BB on the front triangle.
Yeti's Switch Infinity has a standard shock, wheras Analog has a strut
gen 5 trek rail+ is here
https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/trek-introduces-rail-gen-5-full-power-emtb
That I saw, yes. But you specifically mentioned you have a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar. Thus me asking what the novelty is. Kinematics wise it is very similar (conceptually) at least to the switch infinity...
What a strange launch from Trek as this new generation of Rail is up on Trek EU websites since +- 5 months now.
Yeah I am not sure what Trek is doing. They are still offering like 5 different full bikes, and 5-6 framesets from last gen Slash as well. And the new gen slash has been out for more than a year.
They also "re-released" the Slash 5 with a new colorway fairly recently. Do they just have that many unpainted frames left in stock? Still they want full price for them.
My question related to @Karabuka asking "does anyone remember when EU said all of the suspension designs do the same thing and therefore do not qualify as patents"? I never heard this before.
Patents should relate to inventions such as novel mechanisms. It's a bit of a stretch to say that any particular arrangement (kinematics) of a mechanism should be patentable. That's something that has been allowed however, which permitted both the DW and VPP patents to exist for instance. Perhaps it's the stretch of scope that they're trying to crackdown on?
It’s not that I’ve had “a hard time convincing them your design is not a Horst link or a 6bar” more that they’ve had a hard time retaining the information. For instance (this is made up example for illustration), they’ll ask for clarification of how Analog isn’t the same as a 6-bar linkage, I show the difference by counting the pivots; then they’ll ask how Analog is different from a 4-bar linkage, so again I show the difference by counting the pivots. I know it’s just that their agents aren’t familiar with our industry, but it feels like they’re playing with me.
or we (not me) could start a patent question thread?
The Trek has 650b front and back for size small. Does it still have a 29er fork? Is it worth even making 650b forks anymore? I get that some people prefer the 650b front wheel esp. in the smaller sizes, but the geometry changes between a 29er fork and 650b fork with a 650b wheel is pretty trivial, esp. for small sizes where the frame is designed to incorporate it
Having tons of stock and about to blow the F out of everything old in about a month. They've had $3800 CAD Slash 9.8s for months now and keep releasing new batches of crazy sale bikes. Get ready for 40-60% off sales of all that previous gen stuff.
I also don't get that Slash 5 limited edition flight attendant build and new colour. Who's really shelling out 10k CAD for a generation old bike when 10k CAD gets you a great new one?
I’m not opposed to that.
Patents are specifically about novel technology though, so it feels more on topic than (for instance) the repeated mention of BK braking a seat stay, which feels neither tech rumor or innovation related.
Someone who has way too much money and doesn't know any better. They're unicorn customers but they do exist.
If I remember correctly, it was Kalle Nicolai and Horst Leitner who invented the horst link and patented it, and Horst Leitner got the patent for America, and Europe was kept for Nicolai to do whatever. Leitner got into a money squeeze and sold his patents to Specialized and European brands could do whatever but sell their bikes in the US - up until the patent expired and several European brands were starting distribution in North America (Canyon amongst others).
And the invention/patents predates EU.
The large suspension manufacturers have stopped making 27.5 forks in XC and DC applications (SID, 34, etc). I assume the volumes were too low to support 2 wheel sizes for what are categories that prioritize efficiency, meaning larger wheels. I could see this being a thing in more categories. I would hazard a guess that the industry-wide split in high end bike design, including size range per model, is 90-10 in favour of 29er.
Bike brands: You don't need to tool and produce 27.5" lowers anymore, the market wants mullet and full 29" bikes.
Fork makers: Phew, what a relief. Between wheelsize, offset, and axle sizes, it's a lot of parts to manage.
Bike brands: What have you got in the works for 32"?
Fork makers: Excuse me?
no way will 32 be for anything except XC or gravel, right? please? pretty please? make it stop?
I can't imagine what toe overlap would be like for a 32" gravel bike. My giant revolt with 48c tires is already precarious enough. Come to think of it, do you end up with toe overlap on a 32" xc bike with a 68 degree hta with reaches under 450-470?
The bike industry is its own worst enemy. Nothing wrong with 32" wheels, however it should recognized as a niche offering. Any tire, rim, fork maker, etc should get a contract in place before designing and opening tooling for a 32" project with a frame brand.
If the niche for 32" wheels is people over 6'6" tall, it's hard to make a business case for making them.
If the niche for 26" wheels is people under 5'6" tall, that's much easier to justify because not only are there grown adults under 5'6" tall, every adult who is over 5'6", was at some time under 5'6".
32" is clearly too large. 29", on the other hand, might not be large enough. So obviously the future is going to be 30.5" wheels.
I hope they have discounts this side of the pond as well.
I originally looked at getting a Trek like 18 months ago. But was told there was NO WAY I was getting a discount, and delivery times were 3-4 months. Went to the other side of town to a specialized shop, got a smoking deal on top of an already discounted msrp, and had the bike the next week. So not a huge fan of Trek here.
You joke, but mfers talking bout this...
“Im sorry did you say niche? Im (big bike company name here) and I see this as a perfect opportunity to convince you, that you need 32” wheels or you suck at riding. Im going to milk this cow till its dead. You say it works best for 6’ 5” tall people? Im sorry but, wrong, it is the next best thing for 5’ 6” tall people. Tell me otherwise and our lawyers will be at your doorstep with a bat. Keep the rubber side down or some shit.” - Scott Bikes probably.
you of all people should know to never say never.
(edited with a non-ripped photo...and here's a link to that story! -gordo)
https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/BCDs-Carbon-29er-Downhill-Bike…
HA! i'll never cross that line!
until 2026 maybe
I see your size-specific chainstay lengths and raise you – size-specific wheelsizes! 24" XS, 26" S, 27.5" M, 29" L, and 32" XL.
Tell us what you know…?! 👀😆
Bring 27.5 back for the 1SD around the mean.
The clear solution is that we all need inverted forks with swappable crowns. That way you can use the same, noodly, 6 pound fork for for DownCountry, Trail, All Mountain, Enduro, Super Enduro, Freeride (its not dead!), and DH racing! As well as anything from 24" to 32" front wheel sizing!
Pair it to that new Vampire bikes that has a 50mm+ swing in different travel lengths!
I see no downsides, certainly not in weight, tuned stiffness, nor geometry.
The fact trek has not aggressively discounted their stock at any point has been an interesting business decision. When the new slash was released I went to trek to see if there was a deal on the old one and at the time they were still asking full price. I think the largest discount I’ve seen on their bikes has been around 25 percent on really old models. Compared to their number one competitor (spec) who seemed to at one point have anything that wasn’t axs on a near 50 percent discount. Meanwhile there are rumors of huge numbers of trek bikes just sitting in warehouses.
Now I could understand tld or fox being pretty protective of their perceived value even at the risk of losing revenue in the short term. But when it comes to bikes isn’t the hardest thing to accomplish is to get a customer to actually get on one? And if there are just way better deals available how do you expect to do that?
I really enjoyed the trek I owned. The lbs I bought it from was great. The bike was good. It’s the only bike I regret selling. But hell the only reason I got it was because it was on a discount.
The lbs (diffirent one I’ve moved) I support is a trek dealer. I really like every experience I’ve had on a trek bike. But I’m not going to rush to replace my perfectly good bike with slightly better trek when there are way better priced options available. And short of another pandemic I don’t see how trek expects the market to recover where they can ask good money for an old model.