Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment

Evil96
Posts
875
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE, IT
11/23/2024 12:47am
Primoz wrote:
What temperature do the pads get up to? Magnets get very unhappy above 200°C. You have to glue them to the piston. You have to have...

What temperature do the pads get up to? Magnets get very unhappy above 200°C. You have to glue them to the piston. You have to have the surface for it, which means more contact area for the pad and more heat transfer. You have to have steel back plates for the pads (finned pads are thus a no go). There are probably some more reasons why magnets aren't the bees knees. 

bombing down some steep and loose fire roads in the dolomites i managed to turn my storm rotors blue, so quite hot, on trickstuff power pads, nothing happened to the magnets so i'm not sure, the brakes were smelling really bad but i think if you get to the point where the magnets start having problems you'll have way more to care bout first 

1
HexonJuan
Posts
407
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
USA
11/25/2024 6:07am
sprungmass wrote:
How about filling stainless steel pistons with a high temp epoxy and inset a neodymium magnet before it cures? That way you can have ease of...

How about filling stainless steel pistons with a high temp epoxy and inset a neodymium magnet before it cures? That way you can have ease of manufacturing, good thermals and magnetic pistons Smile

Evil96 wrote:
i could actually get some spare hopes piston and attempt something like that, i feel one of the best things on Magura's are the pistons, the...

i could actually get some spare hopes piston and attempt something like that, i feel one of the best things on Magura's are the pistons, the magnet is just genius and i have no idea why others don't do it 

 

Seen mechanical calipers using magnetic pad retention lose their magnetism under heavy, heavy use. Think Pike's Peak or Highway to the Sun in HI. It requires deep and heavy heat cycling, but it can happen.

29
Posts
235
Joined
3/9/2020
Location
AT
11/25/2024 11:18am Edited Date/Time 11/25/2024 11:19am

people in this thread want rube goldberg pistons with magnets and insulation but still say brakes are too expensive


4
Evil96
Posts
875
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE, IT
11/25/2024 11:20am
sprungmass wrote:
How about filling stainless steel pistons with a high temp epoxy and inset a neodymium magnet before it cures? That way you can have ease of...

How about filling stainless steel pistons with a high temp epoxy and inset a neodymium magnet before it cures? That way you can have ease of manufacturing, good thermals and magnetic pistons Smile

Evil96 wrote:
i could actually get some spare hopes piston and attempt something like that, i feel one of the best things on Magura's are the pistons, the...

i could actually get some spare hopes piston and attempt something like that, i feel one of the best things on Magura's are the pistons, the magnet is just genius and i have no idea why others don't do it 

 

HexonJuan wrote:
Seen mechanical calipers using magnetic pad retention lose their magnetism under heavy, heavy use. Think Pike's Peak or Highway to the Sun in HI. It requires...

Seen mechanical calipers using magnetic pad retention lose their magnetism under heavy, heavy use. Think Pike's Peak or Highway to the Sun in HI. It requires deep and heavy heat cycling, but it can happen.

Again, if Magura users never had anissue with it, me included, i think it's solid enough that other manufacturers could use it if done the same way.

1
Primoz
Posts
4678
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
11/25/2024 1:15pm

Well Magura also uses plastic master cylinders with wood screws... 

5
Nobble
Posts
228
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Lakewood, CO, USA
11/25/2024 2:50pm
Primoz wrote:

Well Magura also uses plastic master cylinders with wood screws... 

My MT7s had a 66% failure rate in less than two rides and Magura USA were a royal pain in the ass about it.


Awful brakes and customer service, wouldn’t even run them if they were free.

2
2
ex-ballz
Posts
545
Joined
7/30/2024
Location
Ouagadougou, EH
11/25/2024 5:06pm
Primoz wrote:

Well Magura also uses plastic master cylinders with wood screws... 

Nobble wrote:
My MT7s had a 66% failure rate in less than two rides and Magura USA were a royal pain in the ass about it.Awful brakes and...

My MT7s had a 66% failure rate in less than two rides and Magura USA were a royal pain in the ass about it.


Awful brakes and customer service, wouldn’t even run them if they were free.

The calipers are solid. The levers - not so much. My two pairs of Saintguras are well past their expected shelf life and they just keep on trucking.

2
Evil96
Posts
875
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE, IT
11/25/2024 9:14pm
Primoz wrote:

Well Magura also uses plastic master cylinders with wood screws... 

we're talking magnets here

1
Evil96
Posts
875
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE, IT
11/25/2024 10:07pm
Primoz wrote:

Well Magura also uses plastic master cylinders with wood screws... 

Nobble wrote:
My MT7s had a 66% failure rate in less than two rides and Magura USA were a royal pain in the ass about it.Awful brakes and...

My MT7s had a 66% failure rate in less than two rides and Magura USA were a royal pain in the ass about it.


Awful brakes and customer service, wouldn’t even run them if they were free.

i call that bullshit, 66% come on, the brake itself is great in terms of performance, serviceability and material of choice for the master sucks, i had one master leaking after 4 years of ownership and countless brake pads, never had bleeding issues, it rarely requires bleeding, it got replaced under warranty no question asked in decent times, i honestly have not many things to complain, the stock levers are poorly designed with that dumb spring to keep them in place, hc3 is the way to go if keeping stock, Oak otherwise.
The fact that you cannot rebuild the brakes sucks, and they could definitely  ditch the carbotexture in favor  of some nice 7075 alloy.
That being said my experience with warranty was in NZ and was smooth as, even if the brakes were bought in Italy from Germany.

3
Nobble
Posts
228
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Lakewood, CO, USA
11/26/2024 6:39am Edited Date/Time 11/26/2024 6:43am
Primoz wrote:

Well Magura also uses plastic master cylinders with wood screws... 

Nobble wrote:
My MT7s had a 66% failure rate in less than two rides and Magura USA were a royal pain in the ass about it.Awful brakes and...

My MT7s had a 66% failure rate in less than two rides and Magura USA were a royal pain in the ass about it.


Awful brakes and customer service, wouldn’t even run them if they were free.

Evil96 wrote:
i call that bullshit, 66% come on, the brake itself is great in terms of performance, serviceability and material of choice for the master sucks, i...

i call that bullshit, 66% come on, the brake itself is great in terms of performance, serviceability and material of choice for the master sucks, i had one master leaking after 4 years of ownership and countless brake pads, never had bleeding issues, it rarely requires bleeding, it got replaced under warranty no question asked in decent times, i honestly have not many things to complain, the stock levers are poorly designed with that dumb spring to keep them in place, hc3 is the way to go if keeping stock, Oak otherwise.
The fact that you cannot rebuild the brakes sucks, and they could definitely  ditch the carbotexture in favor  of some nice 7075 alloy.
That being said my experience with warranty was in NZ and was smooth as, even if the brakes were bought in Italy from Germany.

I bought 4 brakes because they were on sale.

Installed the first two, bled up fine, got to the trailhead. Lever main seal failed while riding around to bed in the pads. It would slowly lose pressure and pull to the bar.

Took it to the one local shop I trust, he did a quick lever bleed and then agreed it was a failed lever.

Called Magura, and they told me the brake couldn’t have failed the way it did and that if the main seal was bad it would be leaking out of the brake. Which is wrong. The warranty guy said “It’s a bleed issue, but if you want to throw parts at it I guess I’ll send you a brake.”

Took another one of the brakes I bought to replace the failed one and mounted it. Half way into the first ride on that brake it failed in the exact same way. Called up Magura again. Told the guy I had the exact same problem. He told me “It may need to be bled properly”. Before I said something I’d regret, I told him he’d be hearing from my LBS. I took it to my LBS and had him check my work again and then process the warranty. They gave him a horrible time with it too.

Took the warranty brake they sent me and returned the two unused ones.


In summary, my 66% is accurate. I installed three brakes on my bike and two failed. I Had the LBS check my work every time. After the second one failed on a steep trail I decided they weren’t worth trusting with my safety. If they’d been super apologetic and helpful, maybe I’d feel different about it. But they were dicks and basically insisted that if there was a problem, I must be doing something wrong.

1
Evil96
Posts
875
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE, IT
11/26/2024 10:00am
Nobble wrote:
I bought 4 brakes because they were on sale.Installed the first two, bled up fine, got to the trailhead. Lever main seal failed while riding around...

I bought 4 brakes because they were on sale.

Installed the first two, bled up fine, got to the trailhead. Lever main seal failed while riding around to bed in the pads. It would slowly lose pressure and pull to the bar.

Took it to the one local shop I trust, he did a quick lever bleed and then agreed it was a failed lever.

Called Magura, and they told me the brake couldn’t have failed the way it did and that if the main seal was bad it would be leaking out of the brake. Which is wrong. The warranty guy said “It’s a bleed issue, but if you want to throw parts at it I guess I’ll send you a brake.”

Took another one of the brakes I bought to replace the failed one and mounted it. Half way into the first ride on that brake it failed in the exact same way. Called up Magura again. Told the guy I had the exact same problem. He told me “It may need to be bled properly”. Before I said something I’d regret, I told him he’d be hearing from my LBS. I took it to my LBS and had him check my work again and then process the warranty. They gave him a horrible time with it too.

Took the warranty brake they sent me and returned the two unused ones.


In summary, my 66% is accurate. I installed three brakes on my bike and two failed. I Had the LBS check my work every time. After the second one failed on a steep trail I decided they weren’t worth trusting with my safety. If they’d been super apologetic and helpful, maybe I’d feel different about it. But they were dicks and basically insisted that if there was a problem, I must be doing something wrong.

Well it’s accurate if you were 100% of the customers 

Which you’re not, but damn that’s unlucky, and I guess different countries will experience different customer service experienced depending on who you find on the other side

My and my friends experience has been the exact opposite to yours with 100% success rate, neither of our percentages are the whole picture, but I’d be piased too if I were you

1
2
Nobble
Posts
228
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Lakewood, CO, USA
11/26/2024 10:35am
Nobble wrote:
I bought 4 brakes because they were on sale.Installed the first two, bled up fine, got to the trailhead. Lever main seal failed while riding around...

I bought 4 brakes because they were on sale.

Installed the first two, bled up fine, got to the trailhead. Lever main seal failed while riding around to bed in the pads. It would slowly lose pressure and pull to the bar.

Took it to the one local shop I trust, he did a quick lever bleed and then agreed it was a failed lever.

Called Magura, and they told me the brake couldn’t have failed the way it did and that if the main seal was bad it would be leaking out of the brake. Which is wrong. The warranty guy said “It’s a bleed issue, but if you want to throw parts at it I guess I’ll send you a brake.”

Took another one of the brakes I bought to replace the failed one and mounted it. Half way into the first ride on that brake it failed in the exact same way. Called up Magura again. Told the guy I had the exact same problem. He told me “It may need to be bled properly”. Before I said something I’d regret, I told him he’d be hearing from my LBS. I took it to my LBS and had him check my work again and then process the warranty. They gave him a horrible time with it too.

Took the warranty brake they sent me and returned the two unused ones.


In summary, my 66% is accurate. I installed three brakes on my bike and two failed. I Had the LBS check my work every time. After the second one failed on a steep trail I decided they weren’t worth trusting with my safety. If they’d been super apologetic and helpful, maybe I’d feel different about it. But they were dicks and basically insisted that if there was a problem, I must be doing something wrong.

Evil96 wrote:
Well it’s accurate if you were 100% of the customers Which you’re not, but damn that’s unlucky, and I guess different countries will experience different customer service...

Well it’s accurate if you were 100% of the customers 

Which you’re not, but damn that’s unlucky, and I guess different countries will experience different customer service experienced depending on who you find on the other side

My and my friends experience has been the exact opposite to yours with 100% success rate, neither of our percentages are the whole picture, but I’d be piased too if I were you

I didn’t say Maguras have a 66% failure rate. A lot of people are very happy with their brakes.


I said “My Maguras had a 66% failure rate” which is a factual statement. I installed 3 and 2 failed.

It was the customer service that eliminated any chance of me using their products in future. Insisting your products work differently to the way they actually do and calling your customers incompetent is an unusual strategy.

1
HexonJuan
Posts
407
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
USA
11/27/2024 6:52am
Evil96 wrote:
i could actually get some spare hopes piston and attempt something like that, i feel one of the best things on Magura's are the pistons, the...

i could actually get some spare hopes piston and attempt something like that, i feel one of the best things on Magura's are the pistons, the magnet is just genius and i have no idea why others don't do it 

 

HexonJuan wrote:
Seen mechanical calipers using magnetic pad retention lose their magnetism under heavy, heavy use. Think Pike's Peak or Highway to the Sun in HI. It requires...

Seen mechanical calipers using magnetic pad retention lose their magnetism under heavy, heavy use. Think Pike's Peak or Highway to the Sun in HI. It requires deep and heavy heat cycling, but it can happen.

Evil96 wrote:
Again, if Magura users never had anissue with it, me included, i think it's solid enough that other manufacturers could use it if done the same...

Again, if Magura users never had anissue with it, me included, i think it's solid enough that other manufacturers could use it if done the same way.

Not saying it doesn't work, just saying in certain worst use case scenarios it isn't the most reliable. Certainly is satisfying replacing a set of pads and hearing that snap as they pop into place though. 

1
TimBud
Posts
544
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
11/28/2024 12:17pm

@Nobble Magura USA are NOT Magura! They are just a distributor. They are useless and I don’t know why Magura haven’t dropped them. 

Your symptoms generally only happen if the system is overfilled or after a crash.

If you reset the pads and don’t crack the bleed port you can easily blow the main seal too.

Bleeding without the bleed blocks installed (and pads still in) causes overfilling.

It’s a common occurrence (for warranty depts) to see these cases and it’s always user error. Magura’s are a super simple bleed but the amount of PRO mechanics I’ve seen that try to bodge and do their own methods is ridiculous. And they always cause issues.

The mere fact that you’ve had such a high failure rate points to you being the common denominator.

Maguras carbotecture masters are a known weak point so you have to bleed and maintain them with that in mind. 

Sorry man

2
11/29/2024 8:05pm

I am guessing this would change the leverage rate of lever movement to MC piston or at the very least put the MC piston starting position deeper ?

1
Jakub_G
Posts
384
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
11/30/2024 1:26am
Evil96 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7CEIHJrp8D/?igsh=MTlhdHhwcGQxeHRzeg==This guy replaced the stock bearing on the Hope lever with a different one that seems to be bigger and perhaps stiffer 🧐Anyone done this...

https://www.instagram.com/p/C7CEIHJrp8D/?igsh=MTlhdHhwcGQxeHRzeg==

This guy replaced the stock bearing on the Hope lever with a different one that seems to be bigger and perhaps stiffer 🧐
Anyone done this? Or know why would you do it?

 

One is bushing, one is bearing, bearing could obviously improve lever feel, stock one seems to slide instead of rotating when it gets contaminated over time. Shorter lever throw could be side effect too as it effectively pushes the piston further into the bore, similar to mod people are doing to dominion levers in this thread.

1
Evil96
Posts
875
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE, IT
11/30/2024 2:03am
Jakub_G wrote:
One is bushing, one is bearing, bearing could obviously improve lever feel, stock one seems to slide instead of rotating when it gets contaminated over time...

One is bushing, one is bearing, bearing could obviously improve lever feel, stock one seems to slide instead of rotating when it gets contaminated over time. Shorter lever throw could be side effect too as it effectively pushes the piston further into the bore, similar to mod people are doing to dominion levers in this thread.

So it could be an actual improvement 

Shortening the lever throw a bit and smoother actuation, interesting 

1
mtbjoe
Posts
47
Joined
8/4/2024
Location
Leawood, KS, USA
11/30/2024 8:00am

Radic brakes seems to be the sweet spot. Light pull, immense power, totally rebuildable, quality, don’t have to take the wheel off to change pads 


Price half that of the maxima 

1
mannebask
Posts
30
Joined
2/7/2024
Location
Gothenburg, SE
12/2/2024 2:05am

Everyone seems to hate Shimano brakes in this thread but I will give it a shot.

I recently acuired the Oak Components SH Levers for my SLX M7120-set. Initially I havn't been impressed at all, the levers feel sticky and there is a lot more "dead stroke" before the bite. Brakes are bled correctly and worked flawlessly with stock levers without wandering bite point etc. 

Anyone else having the same issues or experiences?

1
sprungmass
Posts
240
Joined
3/1/2023
Location
Calgary, AB, CA
12/2/2024 7:09am

I just wanted to share a positive experience with Trickstuff and how their brakes can possibly be considered well supported here in North America. For a while now there was an understanding that after spending a lot of money on these, you will have to order spare parts from Germany.

Long story short, I somehow ruptured the membrane/diaphragm in both levers. Reached out to TS, they quickly confirmed that the membrane is indeed ruptured and connected with me with a DT Swiss subsidiary in Grand Junction, Colorado. Just a few days later, I receive a package from DT Swiss with two brand new membranes. No further, questions, free of charge fast shipping to Canada. That's pretty good service and looks like the DT Swiss acquisition has brought a lot of positives.

7
12/2/2024 7:40am
mannebask wrote:
Everyone seems to hate Shimano brakes in this thread but I will give it a shot.I recently acuired the Oak Components SH Levers for my SLX...

Everyone seems to hate Shimano brakes in this thread but I will give it a shot.

I recently acuired the Oak Components SH Levers for my SLX M7120-set. Initially I havn't been impressed at all, the levers feel sticky and there is a lot more "dead stroke" before the bite. Brakes are bled correctly and worked flawlessly with stock levers without wandering bite point etc. 

Anyone else having the same issues or experiences?

Can't comment on the shimano levers, but my levers for magura are amazing. You should contact OAK and ask, they can help you.

2
1
TimBud
Posts
544
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
12/2/2024 11:55am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2024 11:56am
mannebask wrote:
Everyone seems to hate Shimano brakes in this thread but I will give it a shot.I recently acuired the Oak Components SH Levers for my SLX...

Everyone seems to hate Shimano brakes in this thread but I will give it a shot.

I recently acuired the Oak Components SH Levers for my SLX M7120-set. Initially I havn't been impressed at all, the levers feel sticky and there is a lot more "dead stroke" before the bite. Brakes are bled correctly and worked flawlessly with stock levers without wandering bite point etc. 

Anyone else having the same issues or experiences?

Love Shimano and can’t wait for their new XTR/Saint brake to be released.

I’ve Never had an issue with wandering bite on any of mine (expect my 3 year old Zees where you could see fluid ooze from the master) and every single one (that came through my workshops) we were able to fix with a decent bleed. Saw some failures form use of incompatible fluid though.

You can get any brake to wander with a shite bleed, no maintenance and neglect.

Why is it with mineral oil brakes people use any fluid except that which is recommended, whilst no one is stupid enough to put DOT 5 in their DOT4/5.1 brake and complain about it.

1
TheKaiser
Posts
120
Joined
11/21/2023
Location
Storrs, CT, USA
12/2/2024 3:39pm
TimBud wrote:
@Nobble Magura USA are NOT Magura! They are just a distributor. They are useless and I don’t know why Magura haven’t dropped them. Your symptoms generally only...

@Nobble Magura USA are NOT Magura! They are just a distributor. They are useless and I don’t know why Magura haven’t dropped them. 

Your symptoms generally only happen if the system is overfilled or after a crash.

If you reset the pads and don’t crack the bleed port you can easily blow the main seal too.

Bleeding without the bleed blocks installed (and pads still in) causes overfilling.

It’s a common occurrence (for warranty depts) to see these cases and it’s always user error. Magura’s are a super simple bleed but the amount of PRO mechanics I’ve seen that try to bodge and do their own methods is ridiculous. And they always cause issues.

The mere fact that you’ve had such a high failure rate points to you being the common denominator.

Maguras carbotecture masters are a known weak point so you have to bleed and maintain them with that in mind. 

Sorry man

I've been hearing talk about the risks of re-setting the pistons while the system is closed. The risks to the bladder are very intuitive for me, but I am having trouble understanding how it is a risk to the main seal in the master cylinder. You wrote "If you reset the pads and don’t crack the bleed port you can easily blow the main seal too.". Can you clarify how that works? Intuitively, it seems to me that if the main seal is designed to contain the fluid's pressure, it shouldn't matter if the pressure is from the seal being pressed into the fluid (as when squeezing the brake lever) or if the pressure is from the fluid from the fluid pressing back on the seal (as when resetting the pistons).

1
TheKaiser
Posts
120
Joined
11/21/2023
Location
Storrs, CT, USA
12/2/2024 3:46pm
TimBud wrote:
Love Shimano and can’t wait for their new XTR/Saint brake to be released.I’ve Never had an issue with wandering bite on any of mine (expect my...

Love Shimano and can’t wait for their new XTR/Saint brake to be released.

I’ve Never had an issue with wandering bite on any of mine (expect my 3 year old Zees where you could see fluid ooze from the master) and every single one (that came through my workshops) we were able to fix with a decent bleed. Saw some failures form use of incompatible fluid though.

You can get any brake to wander with a shite bleed, no maintenance and neglect.

Why is it with mineral oil brakes people use any fluid except that which is recommended, whilst no one is stupid enough to put DOT 5 in their DOT4/5.1 brake and complain about it.

What incompatible fluids did you see causing trouble in Shimanos? Was it the popular aftermarket hack/upgrade oils (like Redline Likewater), other mineral oil brake oils (like Magura Blood), or weird random stuff (like baby oil)?

D(C)
Posts
51
Joined
5/15/2013
Location
CA
Fantasy
12/2/2024 10:44pm

General question about how brakes work - what causes a seized piston, one that doesn’t move in the caliper when the lever is pulled? I understand that the caliper seals essentially act as a spring, responsible for retracting the piston, and that the piston only slides within the seal when advancing to compensate for pad wear. If it is dirt that causes pistons to become stuck, how would dirt inhibit the caliper seal from flexing as the piston tries to extend?

TimBud
Posts
544
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
12/3/2024 12:43am
TheKaiser wrote:
I've been hearing talk about the risks of re-setting the pistons while the system is closed. The risks to the bladder are very intuitive for me...

I've been hearing talk about the risks of re-setting the pistons while the system is closed. The risks to the bladder are very intuitive for me, but I am having trouble understanding how it is a risk to the main seal in the master cylinder. You wrote "If you reset the pads and don’t crack the bleed port you can easily blow the main seal too.". Can you clarify how that works? Intuitively, it seems to me that if the main seal is designed to contain the fluid's pressure, it shouldn't matter if the pressure is from the seal being pressed into the fluid (as when squeezing the brake lever) or if the pressure is from the fluid from the fluid pressing back on the seal (as when resetting the pistons).

When you squeeze the lever under normal braking, that pressure does not effect the seal in the master

The main seal is only held in place by a weak plastic (sorry carbotecture) cap that is press into its place, If you force fluid back into the master (by resetting the pistons) it has nowhere to go and can easily blow that seal/cap... which is not replaceable

Evil96
Posts
875
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE, IT
12/3/2024 1:02am
TimBud wrote:
When you squeeze the lever under normal braking, that pressure does not effect the seal in the masterThe main seal is only held in place by...

When you squeeze the lever under normal braking, that pressure does not effect the seal in the master

The main seal is only held in place by a weak plastic (sorry carbotecture) cap that is press into its place, If you force fluid back into the master (by resetting the pistons) it has nowhere to go and can easily blow that seal/cap... which is not replaceable

crap or fancy 7075 anodized alluminium, if it has a membrane the risk is the same when resetting pistons on a closed system, especially when overfilled

1
1

Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment

The Latest