installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
I wouldn’t call that an issueEspecially if the system is properly made and does not require bleeding every few weeks or months like a shimano brake I’m...
I wouldn’t call that an issue
Especially if the system is properly made and does not require bleeding every few weeks or months like a shimano brake
I’m still torn between Kaha/V4/Maxima as I can get deals on almost all at the moment 🧐 still waiting to confirm pricing on the Trick
The Hope T4 V4s are similar in feel IMO, although a bit less refined than the Maximas, the lever feel is similarly light. It's just a...
The Hope T4 V4s are similar in feel IMO, although a bit less refined than the Maximas, the lever feel is similarly light. It's just a bulkier brake, uses DOT, and I find the bleed process to be kinda janky in 2024 but some get butthurt when I say that. You can run the lever closer to the bar with the V4s, the Maximas require a fair bit more lever throw to get power out of them. I also think the lever ergonomics of the Hopes is better, the Maxima lever tends to be a bit slippery and small feeling but YMMV
The Kahas are VERY different than the above. They engage a lot faster, as in there is almost zero deadstroke. They are also easier to bleed. The lack of deadstroke makes them feel a lot more powerful and the power comes down a lot faster.
People complain about the Maxima bleed process but again, like my post above, I don't think some of them read the instructions. If you read them, there is an extra set of steps (tbh I do this with all brakes anyway) that add a little bit of time, but you'll get it first time if you do that. It's really not hard.
to have ultimate power but lot's of modulation to use it in a very controlled manner, Kahas or v4?
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
200mm rotors f/r Mavens on mine, Good modulation after a couple of rides.
Heavy pull makes zero difference if you use brakes properly and dont drag them....
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
200mm rotors f/r Mavens on mine, Good modulation after a couple of rides.
Heavy pull makes zero difference if you use brakes properly and dont drag them....
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only...
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.
His lever force test was pseudoscientific junk at best.
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.His...
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.
His lever force test was pseudoscientific junk at best.
I will and report back, but I can tell you most reviews are great for codes r and rsc and I find the first pure garbage, the second a tad better
Still require a lot of effort to slow down in the steep
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only...
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.
you dont need to be an amazing rider to use mavens effectively or brake properly.... if you know how to drive you can use MTB brakes.
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only...
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.you dont need to be...
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.
you dont need to be an amazing rider to use mavens effectively or brake properly.... if you know how to drive you can use MTB brakes.
Sure everyone has preferences, but aren't you letting your own biases lead you to disregard his reviews as flawed or invalid? The mavens do have a very heavy pull compared to other brakes on the market, Shimano, Hayes, maguras, other srams, and if you are not an amazing or experienced rider, you are going to drag your brakes far more. Heavy pull and brake dragging leads to hand fatigue and arm pump. That can be corrected with different braking technique, but one that is more suited to racing, braking late and hard only when you need to. But the majority of riders aren't going to be doing that. They're going to drag and comfort brake more because having fun and feeling confident while riding is more important than the best braking technique. His reviews may not be suited to you, his views on what feels good in a brake and what is important for a brake clearly aren't what you look for in a brake. So find a reviewer who's views and experiences match yours, that way you get good recommendations for you.
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
Not super heavy, only race enduro recreationally, Mavens are my favorite brakes.
Had Saints, Saint/XT Combo and Curas on my own bikes, have tried Maguras, Codes and Hopes on other bikes.
Mavens are the first brake where I feel like I don’t need more power out of it and the modulation is still there. I found that I need to think about braking a lot less.
Lever force is only a problem at the beginning of the stroke, once you reach the bite point it’s completely fine and unless you have weak hands shouldn’t be a problem for any decently fit mountainbiker. You need to exert way less maximal strength at the bite point which is usually where the hands start hurting.
Yes, the setup and bleed is fiddly but once you have that down they’re great and right now I can’t see myself ride anything else besides maybe Trickstuff. But considering I paid 350 bucks for a set of maven silvers the value comparison is crazy.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very...
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
you dont need to do that with other brakes so that makes it automatically a bad design
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to...
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to bikes, so for them to have consistent issues across all 3 levels of the platform is certainly something. Granted, if they were missing a step in the process that would work against them. The old 'it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you keep doing it wrong' scenario. Bigger though is those issues seem pretty common amongst a lot of the initial reviews and buys, and now you have folx throwing money for aftermarket lever blade kits to try to remedy what is either a service or manufacturing issue. The initial breakaway issue had me wondering if SRAM used an o ring on the MC piston, but that's not the case, so then I look to the caliper pistons and the mates between them and the seals. If the pistons and/or seals are too big or the bores are undersized, that can lead to that feel. You'd have to pull harder to overcome the stiction and get that initial piston movement. (EDIT: the seal durometer can also contribute to that effect). One could swap out the caliper to another mineral oil system and see if that disappears, but without proper go/no go gauges it would only hint to the problem.
On a sep note, kudos to the Vital staff for testing the brakes as they come from manufacturers. Having control pads and rotors isn't a terrible idea, but since most people will buy and run what the manufacturer specs it creates a better real world scenario for end users to digest. You can always hop up or dumb down a brake with AM parts, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who would think having to do more than change rotor size on a new set of brakes isn't exactly a desirable trait for a brake to have.
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back...
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.
They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back on your fork and insert chain oil into it. You read that right, chain oil, into a suspension fork.
They got called out in the IG comments for how dumb it was, several suspension shops commented saying the same thing, and LW repeatedly defended it, claiming DVO told them it was a good idea. Even the RockShox IG account was throwing shade at it in the comments and Loam Wolf continually argued it was a good idea.
They eventually pulled the video from everywhere, probably because someone at DVO told them to recant it because it made them both look dumb. The internet forgot about it soon after, but it's hard to take them seriously when they are doing that and popping pistons out while trying to install brakes. The only remnant of this debacle is this reddit post, every other reference to it on their social accounts was scrubbed or erased.
The same applies to that guy who installed Maximas, bled with straight sunflower oil, then popped a piston out in the process.
Working on bikes isn't hard. Working on brakes is slightly more difficult but if you follow the instructions, most issues people have are non-issues. The problem is they just wing it and then wonder why stuff doesn't work right.
Woof. I had no idea about that vid/recommendation. I recant my comment on their wrenching capabilities.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very...
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
I just rewatched the set up portion of his review for the mavens and looked through srams install and bleed instructions didn't see anything missing from the set up. The mavens set up like any other sram brake, what steps did he skip?
to have ultimate power but lot's of modulation to use it in a very controlled manner, Kahas or v4?
My Kahas didn't have contact adjust, so keep that in mind.
The Radics have power that comes in very fast, it's the shortest lever pull of any brake system I tried, the power comes on VERY fast. I loved them but I can see why some wouldn't.
The V4 has a longer pull that's easier to modulate and has contact adjust (new Kahas do also), so you could find them easier to modulate but honestly they are both great and overall power seems really similar.
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad hand/finger/thumb cramps.
people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad...
people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad hand/finger/thumb cramps.
same, prob due to the much stronger power and actually less lever force needed to get the power. this whole "stiff lever breakaway" argument does not hold up in my personal riding experiences with mavens. love em.
I've got two set of Mavens. I actually agree with the criticisms we're seeing from reviewers. The bleed process has been a faff, there's still some pump up issues, the levers squeak, etc. I quite like the brakes, it's why I have two sets, but I'd still rather have a lighter dead stroke. If that force/feel doesn't matter, why are multiple brands putting effort into reducing it? Hayes specifically said they made the stroke light because that's what their riders wanted. At the end of the day, does anyone actually prefer the way the mavens (dead stroke) feel compared to the dominions?
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane...
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on...
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
Older version, without contact point (German distributor said they'd be available early next year, but considering they are out to some people already, might just be "old" stock) and in mineral oil. Using Bionol in them, bled with 2 syringes at first and then a funnel at the master cylinder as it's just easier.
Sent him a message via the contact form on the website, didn't have the email, and I have yet to get a reply but it's been like a day or 2 so it's all good.
The feeling is that the master cylinder membrane sucks oil back up in the reservoir when they heat up a bit, and you can actually see the pistons roll back over a few seconds. Open the mc and let some air or add a drop of oil in there and it goes away for a bit. It's the 2 pistons closest to the hose.
I'll update if I get an answer and if I manage to fix them.
I also have one lever that has a small amount of play, the left one I believe, like if I press the brake, and then slightly push out on the lever, there's a small 1mm movement that only happens on one. Doesn't matter to me, but maybe something was amiss in the QC of that pair when it went out.
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which has been proven stronger with the same effort to the lever AND has a way lighter free stroke, so even if you have a perfect brake technique and go hard all the time will result in less fatigue, just like for someone dragging brakes all the time like me.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at the lever. As a result, all power/stop/etc times are based on that constant force at the lever. They didn't explicitly test engagement point, deadstroke force, etc, but their test does better reflect the type of power you get out of a brake for a given amount of lever force. The downside to this approach is that it doesn't measure lever pull distance, which I think is important, but also doesn't show how much force is required to generate an equal amount of power. Still, it's a more scientific and accurate test compared to Dales, which again, shows effectively nothing useful.
As for dragging brakes, I'm honestly not sure how someone could drag the Mavens, they are just so powerful. I suppose if you used much smaller rotors or let the contact point out, you could, but I'd argue riders looking for that sort of feel from their brakes would be better with another option like Codes, Dominions, etc unless they are riding super steep terrain and heat is an issue or they are very heavy.
The Mavens are somewhat of a niche brake that won't suit a lot of riders. If you are super light, they are going to be harder to get along with and require more tuning. If you like super long lever pulls, same story. They are really only suitable for extended descents with heavier bikes/riders and for riders who want that type of rapid power delivery, I'd say the same for the Kahas. Riders looking for more linear, gradual power delivery would be better suited with T4 V4s, Dominions, Codes, etc.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into my finder harder the whole time I was on them until the bite point. If I was dragging those brakes I would have felt more fatigue compared to a different brake. They could have been set up poorly, I'm not sure I didn't set them up. Just different experiences with them I guess.
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at...
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at the lever. As a result, all power/stop/etc times are based on that constant force at the lever. They didn't explicitly test engagement point, deadstroke force, etc, but their test does better reflect the type of power you get out of a brake for a given amount of lever force. The downside to this approach is that it doesn't measure lever pull distance, which I think is important, but also doesn't show how much force is required to generate an equal amount of power. Still, it's a more scientific and accurate test compared to Dales, which again, shows effectively nothing useful.
As for dragging brakes, I'm honestly not sure how someone could drag the Mavens, they are just so powerful. I suppose if you used much smaller rotors or let the contact point out, you could, but I'd argue riders looking for that sort of feel from their brakes would be better with another option like Codes, Dominions, etc unless they are riding super steep terrain and heat is an issue or they are very heavy.
The Mavens are somewhat of a niche brake that won't suit a lot of riders. If you are super light, they are going to be harder to get along with and require more tuning. If you like super long lever pulls, same story. They are really only suitable for extended descents with heavier bikes/riders and for riders who want that type of rapid power delivery, I'd say the same for the Kahas. Riders looking for more linear, gradual power delivery would be better suited with T4 V4s, Dominions, Codes, etc.
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops it's astonishing, even with people riding more powerful brakes, metallic pads, and large rotors. The Mavens for sure are a niche product, but with how the industry is a lot of people who don't need a brake like that will end up on them. The Codes are a far better sram brake for most riders, but that doesn't matter when it comes to hype.
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
to have ultimate power but lot's of modulation to use it in a very controlled manner, Kahas or v4?
OK, can someone tell me why it would be beneficial to go with a straight fitting over a banjo fitting at the Caliper for mtb brakes?
https://youtu.be/YbjymgGvse0?si=kYAtwW0NJqOexFmu a great and detailed review of some Trickstuff Maxima
Dale stone, the guy who portrays that he 'knows it all' but has a terrible brake technique and blames all the brakes.
200mm rotors f/r Mavens on mine, Good modulation after a couple of rides.
Heavy pull makes zero difference if you use brakes properly and dont drag them....
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.
His lever force test was pseudoscientific junk at best.
I will and report back, but I can tell you most reviews are great for codes r and rsc and I find the first pure garbage, the second a tad better
Still require a lot of effort to slow down in the steep
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.
you dont need to be an amazing rider to use mavens effectively or brake properly.... if you know how to drive you can use MTB brakes.
Sure everyone has preferences, but aren't you letting your own biases lead you to disregard his reviews as flawed or invalid? The mavens do have a very heavy pull compared to other brakes on the market, Shimano, Hayes, maguras, other srams, and if you are not an amazing or experienced rider, you are going to drag your brakes far more. Heavy pull and brake dragging leads to hand fatigue and arm pump. That can be corrected with different braking technique, but one that is more suited to racing, braking late and hard only when you need to. But the majority of riders aren't going to be doing that. They're going to drag and comfort brake more because having fun and feeling confident while riding is more important than the best braking technique. His reviews may not be suited to you, his views on what feels good in a brake and what is important for a brake clearly aren't what you look for in a brake. So find a reviewer who's views and experiences match yours, that way you get good recommendations for you.
Not super heavy, only race enduro recreationally, Mavens are my favorite brakes.
Had Saints, Saint/XT Combo and Curas on my own bikes, have tried Maguras, Codes and Hopes on other bikes.
Mavens are the first brake where I feel like I don’t need more power out of it and the modulation is still there. I found that I need to think about braking a lot less.
Lever force is only a problem at the beginning of the stroke, once you reach the bite point it’s completely fine and unless you have weak hands shouldn’t be a problem for any decently fit mountainbiker. You need to exert way less maximal strength at the bite point which is usually where the hands start hurting.
Yes, the setup and bleed is fiddly but once you have that down they’re great and right now I can’t see myself ride anything else besides maybe Trickstuff. But considering I paid 350 bucks for a set of maven silvers the value comparison is crazy.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
you dont need to do that with other brakes so that makes it automatically a bad design
Woof. I had no idea about that vid/recommendation. I recant my comment on their wrenching capabilities.
I just rewatched the set up portion of his review for the mavens and looked through srams install and bleed instructions didn't see anything missing from the set up. The mavens set up like any other sram brake, what steps did he skip?
My Kahas didn't have contact adjust, so keep that in mind.
The Radics have power that comes in very fast, it's the shortest lever pull of any brake system I tried, the power comes on VERY fast. I loved them but I can see why some wouldn't.
The V4 has a longer pull that's easier to modulate and has contact adjust (new Kahas do also), so you could find them easier to modulate but honestly they are both great and overall power seems really similar.
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad hand/finger/thumb cramps.
same, prob due to the much stronger power and actually less lever force needed to get the power. this whole "stiff lever breakaway" argument does not hold up in my personal riding experiences with mavens. love em.
I've got two set of Mavens. I actually agree with the criticisms we're seeing from reviewers. The bleed process has been a faff, there's still some pump up issues, the levers squeak, etc. I quite like the brakes, it's why I have two sets, but I'd still rather have a lighter dead stroke. If that force/feel doesn't matter, why are multiple brands putting effort into reducing it? Hayes specifically said they made the stroke light because that's what their riders wanted. At the end of the day, does anyone actually prefer the way the mavens (dead stroke) feel compared to the dominions?
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
Older version, without contact point (German distributor said they'd be available early next year, but considering they are out to some people already, might just be "old" stock) and in mineral oil. Using Bionol in them, bled with 2 syringes at first and then a funnel at the master cylinder as it's just easier.
Sent him a message via the contact form on the website, didn't have the email, and I have yet to get a reply but it's been like a day or 2 so it's all good.
The feeling is that the master cylinder membrane sucks oil back up in the reservoir when they heat up a bit, and you can actually see the pistons roll back over a few seconds. Open the mc and let some air or add a drop of oil in there and it goes away for a bit. It's the 2 pistons closest to the hose.
I'll update if I get an answer and if I manage to fix them.
I also have one lever that has a small amount of play, the left one I believe, like if I press the brake, and then slightly push out on the lever, there's a small 1mm movement that only happens on one. Doesn't matter to me, but maybe something was amiss in the QC of that pair when it went out.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which has been proven stronger with the same effort to the lever AND has a way lighter free stroke, so even if you have a perfect brake technique and go hard all the time will result in less fatigue, just like for someone dragging brakes all the time like me.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at the lever. As a result, all power/stop/etc times are based on that constant force at the lever. They didn't explicitly test engagement point, deadstroke force, etc, but their test does better reflect the type of power you get out of a brake for a given amount of lever force. The downside to this approach is that it doesn't measure lever pull distance, which I think is important, but also doesn't show how much force is required to generate an equal amount of power. Still, it's a more scientific and accurate test compared to Dales, which again, shows effectively nothing useful.
As for dragging brakes, I'm honestly not sure how someone could drag the Mavens, they are just so powerful. I suppose if you used much smaller rotors or let the contact point out, you could, but I'd argue riders looking for that sort of feel from their brakes would be better with another option like Codes, Dominions, etc unless they are riding super steep terrain and heat is an issue or they are very heavy.
The Mavens are somewhat of a niche brake that won't suit a lot of riders. If you are super light, they are going to be harder to get along with and require more tuning. If you like super long lever pulls, same story. They are really only suitable for extended descents with heavier bikes/riders and for riders who want that type of rapid power delivery, I'd say the same for the Kahas. Riders looking for more linear, gradual power delivery would be better suited with T4 V4s, Dominions, Codes, etc.
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into my finder harder the whole time I was on them until the bite point. If I was dragging those brakes I would have felt more fatigue compared to a different brake. They could have been set up poorly, I'm not sure I didn't set them up. Just different experiences with them I guess.
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops it's astonishing, even with people riding more powerful brakes, metallic pads, and large rotors. The Mavens for sure are a niche product, but with how the industry is a lot of people who don't need a brake like that will end up on them. The Codes are a far better sram brake for most riders, but that doesn't matter when it comes to hype.
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