MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Evil96
Posts
802
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE IT
11/11/2024 11:50am
Primoz wrote:
DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for...

DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for the skin after prolonged exposure, but it's nothing wearing gloves doesn't remedy. Otherwise it is more or less completely deactivated by just spraying it with water as opposed to mineral oil which is not water solluble.

Based on the comments as to why Sram was pushed to move to mineral oil vs. DOT fluid, looks like it's mostly the paint that is the issue...

Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Nobble wrote:
Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.For example, the minimum...

Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.


For example, the minimum “wet” boiling point for dot 4 and 5.1 is 311 or 356 Fahrenheit respectively.

Redline RF-600 dot 4 has a wet boiling point of 400f.

Wilwood XR race dot 5.1 has a wet boiling point of 432f.
 

Dry boiling points for both are over 600f. Higher than any mineral oil I’m aware of.

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has a way lower boil point, so i'm not sure how this influences performances on mtb brakes

Nobble
Posts
225
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Lakewood, CO US
11/11/2024 12:13pm
Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Nobble wrote:
Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.For example, the minimum...

Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.


For example, the minimum “wet” boiling point for dot 4 and 5.1 is 311 or 356 Fahrenheit respectively.

Redline RF-600 dot 4 has a wet boiling point of 400f.

Wilwood XR race dot 5.1 has a wet boiling point of 432f.
 

Dry boiling points for both are over 600f. Higher than any mineral oil I’m aware of.

Evil96 wrote:
https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has...

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has a way lower boil point, so i'm not sure how this influences performances on mtb brakes

Because their claimed performance is such an outlier, I’m slightly skeptical of the Bionol and Gold fluid claims. I haven’t been able to find any real information on them other than marketing material.

I’d love to see an actual Technical Data Sheet for them.


Past a certain point it doesn’t matter though. The ETFE liner in your brake hose will melt at 260-280C anyway.

1
sethimus
Posts
870
Joined
9/20/2014
Location
CH
11/11/2024 12:36pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2024 12:39pm
Nobble wrote:
Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.For example, the minimum...

Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.


For example, the minimum “wet” boiling point for dot 4 and 5.1 is 311 or 356 Fahrenheit respectively.

Redline RF-600 dot 4 has a wet boiling point of 400f.

Wilwood XR race dot 5.1 has a wet boiling point of 432f.
 

Dry boiling points for both are over 600f. Higher than any mineral oil I’m aware of.

Evil96 wrote:
https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has...

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has a way lower boil point, so i'm not sure how this influences performances on mtb brakes

Nobble wrote:
Because their claimed performance is such an outlier, I’m slightly skeptical of the Bionol and Gold fluid claims. I haven’t been able to find any real...

Because their claimed performance is such an outlier, I’m slightly skeptical of the Bionol and Gold fluid claims. I haven’t been able to find any real information on them other than marketing material.

I’d love to see an actual Technical Data Sheet for them.


Past a certain point it doesn’t matter though. The ETFE liner in your brake hose will melt at 260-280C anyway.

https://www.mrc-trading.de/media/db/63/36/1715758579/VAR-D-BHO-0.pdf (in german of course, since you could't be bothered to use si units earlier instead of your imperial units)

there you go, the one for bionol

5
5
Primoz
Posts
4519
Joined
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Location
SI
11/11/2024 12:47pm

That's a safety data sheet which is far from a technical specification... 

1
Nobble
Posts
225
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Lakewood, CO US
11/11/2024 1:11pm
Primoz wrote:

That's a safety data sheet which is far from a technical specification... 

I think it does have the relevant info though.


If I’m correctly looking at that, “Siedebeginn” is “start of boiling” which is 360c And they test per astm d2887.


I don’t know why they say there’s a 60c range on it though.

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11/11/2024 1:47pm
Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a...

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a petroleum product....

So it seems weird to target dot fluid when so much more of it is used in cars and there are far worse materials like PTFE still being used in chain lubes and suspension oil 

sethimus wrote:
that's just plain wrong, there are options:

that's just plain wrong, there are options:

Trickstuff Bionol Bremsöl 1 Liter für Scheibenbremsen

I have faith in Radic and tirckstuff that those fluids work well in their products and have been tested for it, but my experience with bio-based oils replacing mineral oil in suspension products (seal swelling etc) would make me wary of putting it in mainstream brands not designed for it

2
sethimus
Posts
870
Joined
9/20/2014
Location
CH
11/11/2024 1:48pm
Primoz wrote:

That's a safety data sheet which is far from a technical specification... 

Nobble wrote:
I think it does have the relevant info though.If I’m correctly looking at that, “Siedebeginn” is “start of boiling” which is 360c And they test per...

I think it does have the relevant info though.


If I’m correctly looking at that, “Siedebeginn” is “start of boiling” which is 360c And they test per astm d2887.


I don’t know why they say there’s a 60c range on it though.

because its the range in which boiling occurs:

SECTION 9: Physical and Chemical Properties

 

9.1. Information on Basic Physical and Chemical Properties

Physical State: Liquid

Color: Not specified

Odor: Characteristic

 

Testing Standards

pH Value: Not determined

 

Changes of State

Melting Point: Not determined

Initial Boiling Point / Boiling Range / Temperature at 50% Mass Loss:

Approx. 360°C / 360°C-460°C / 420°C

ASTM D2887 / DIN 51435

Flash Point: >190°C (ASTM D92)

 

Flammability

Solid: Not applicable

Gas: Not applicable

Lower Explosive Limit: Not determined

Upper Explosive Limit: Not determined

 

Self-Ignition Temperature

Solid: Not applicable

Gas: Not applicable

Decomposition Temperature: Not determined

 

Oxidizing Properties: Non-oxidizing

Vapor Pressure: Not determined

Density (at 20°C): 0.88 g/cm³

Water Solubility: Insoluble

Solubility in Other Solvents: Not determined

Partition Coefficient: Not determined

 

Kinematic Viscosity (at 40°C / 100°C):

Approx. 8.56 mm²/s / Approx. 2.80 mm²/s

ASTM D7279 / ASTM D2270

Vapor Density: Not determined

Evaporation Loss (NOACK, 250°C, 1 hour): 15.6%

ASTM D5800 / DIN 51581

 

Other Information

Solid Content: Not determined

Viscosity Index: 200

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sethimus
Posts
870
Joined
9/20/2014
Location
CH
11/11/2024 1:55pm

petrus hydrauliköl (labelled bionol, only available like that in switzerland) vs. market leader (shimano) liquid to 100% gaseous chart:

2
2
shreda
Posts
207
Joined
10/2/2018
Location
GB
11/11/2024 2:52pm

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

17
Nobble
Posts
225
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Lakewood, CO US
11/11/2024 2:54pm

I’m not a petrochemical engineer, but I’m assuming there’s a 0-100% range because the fluid is a mix of chemicals with different heat capacities and boiling points? If so, I’m not sure the 100% boiling temperature would matter.


I think as soon as any significant percentage of the fluid boils, your brake is useless until it cools. (No idea what percent would be the threshold, my guess would be 2-5%)

1
11/11/2024 4:17pm

Let's stop arguing about boiling points and get back to rumors.

I go by which mineral oil tastes the best anyways. 

40
boozed
Posts
644
Joined
6/11/2019
Location
AU
11/11/2024 4:56pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2024 7:32pm
Primoz wrote:
DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for...

DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for the skin after prolonged exposure, but it's nothing wearing gloves doesn't remedy. Otherwise it is more or less completely deactivated by just spraying it with water as opposed to mineral oil which is not water solluble.

Based on the comments as to why Sram was pushed to move to mineral oil vs. DOT fluid, looks like it's mostly the paint that is the issue...

Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a...

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a petroleum product....

So it seems weird to target dot fluid when so much more of it is used in cars and there are far worse materials like PTFE still being used in chain lubes and suspension oil 

Some of the chemicals used in DOT 4/5.1 are used as ingredients in consumer goods at low levels, but then petroleum byproducts are used in some foods and as the sole ingredient in some consumer goods (e.g. baby oil and vaseline).

The DOT 4/5.1 fluids we're talking about are derived from petrochemicals too, but they require more significant chemical synthesis.  Either way it's probably not a very meaningful point of difference given the amounts we deal with.  But I'm not a chemical engineer so I've already gone way outside my expertise.

2
Evil96
Posts
802
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE IT
11/11/2024 6:47pm
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

according to Harz enduro in the comments, a german guy that makes heaps of video with all the small companies in germany "we might know more wednesday" so let's see

6
haen
Posts
105
Joined
12/3/2020
Location
CA US
11/11/2024 7:42pm
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdf

The shock was built and there are photos of it somewhere on the internet but I can't find them.

4
jazza_wil
Posts
85
Joined
5/10/2011
Location
whistler, BC CA
11/11/2024 9:22pm
IMG 8178
31
1
Jotegr
Posts
339
Joined
6/28/2024
Location
Interior, BC CA
11/11/2024 11:00pm

Let's stop arguing about boiling points and get back to rumors.

I go by which mineral oil tastes the best anyways. 

So long as it's in moderation. The mineral oil is a known laxative! 

3
2
Evil96
Posts
802
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE IT
11/12/2024 12:51am
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

haen wrote:
Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdfThe...

Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdf

The shock was built and there are photos of it somewhere on the internet but I can't find them.

wasn't it on one of the Trickstuff Trick Staff bike checks? all links lead to nothing now since they rebuilt the website

1
piratetrails
Posts
280
Joined
8/28/2021
Location
Arcadia, VA US
11/12/2024 5:57am Edited Date/Time 11/12/2024 5:59am

I always thought the name DB8 was funny considering the Mavens were released shortly after and also use mineral oil. My thought was: "sooo who's even debating anymore? That DB8 was short lived." Now I know who's still DB8-ing. 😭

1
4
haen
Posts
105
Joined
12/3/2020
Location
CA US
11/12/2024 7:44am
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

haen wrote:
Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdfThe...

Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdf

The shock was built and there are photos of it somewhere on the internet but I can't find them.

Evil96 wrote:

wasn't it on one of the Trickstuff Trick Staff bike checks? all links lead to nothing now since they rebuilt the website

That sounds right.

2
11/12/2024 7:47am Edited Date/Time 11/12/2024 8:31am
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

Evil96 wrote:
according to Harz enduro in the comments, a german guy that makes heaps of video with all the small companies in germany "we might know more...

according to Harz enduro in the comments, a german guy that makes heaps of video with all the small companies in germany "we might know more wednesday" so let's see

Intend has a countdown on their instagram story today that will end the morning of November 13th so that seems to line up!

4
trytochaseme
Posts
12
Joined
8/7/2018
Location
Cedar Springs, MI US
11/13/2024 5:06am
haen wrote:

That sounds right.

Evil96 wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CyvLifFt6Jp/?igsh=MWZxY3o4N3FrcXdsZg==
Found! It was on the Rides of Trickstuff #8

No full review but the pics are here 

haen wrote:

Well done! 

New shock from Intend looks very different. We'll see what tomorrow brings. 

Looks like we have been fooled. They announced new stem, rocksteady V2 cranks, and blackline forks in stock. But no new of coil shock 

4
monarchmason
Posts
283
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA US
11/13/2024 7:19am

That coil shock gives me some serious CC Tigon vibes.

jonkranked
Posts
1175
Joined
5/5/2016
Location
Norristown, PA US
11/13/2024 7:53am
Nobble wrote:

The Scout is a kids bike now.

Refreshed kids bikes from Transition too.


https://www.transitionbikes.com/Bikes_Scout.cfm

I wouldn’t say that. Don’t know many kids on a 460 reach bike.  Weird way to do that 

weird for sure, given the intended height ranges for it.  I know adults that would fit the medium scout. 

 

image 93
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Nobble
Posts
225
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Lakewood, CO US
11/13/2024 7:57am Edited Date/Time 11/13/2024 8:03am
Nobble wrote:

The Scout is a kids bike now.

Refreshed kids bikes from Transition too.


https://www.transitionbikes.com/Bikes_Scout.cfm

I wouldn’t say that. Don’t know many kids on a 460 reach bike.  Weird way to do that 

They’re listing it in their “Youth” section alongside the Bandit and Ripcord.


Teens and tweens are kids too. 😉

2
bikelurker
Posts
172
Joined
3/23/2023
Location
Bilbao, Vizcaya ES
11/13/2024 9:08am

I'm a 5'9" kid too, at 41yo, a lil overweight for that lightweight rider kinematic layout thou

8
amaranth
Posts
175
Joined
10/19/2023
Location
Nutley, NJ US
11/13/2024 9:19am
Nobble wrote:

The Scout is a kids bike now.

Refreshed kids bikes from Transition too.


https://www.transitionbikes.com/Bikes_Scout.cfm

I wouldn’t say that. Don’t know many kids on a 460 reach bike.  Weird way to do that 

jonkranked wrote:
weird for sure, given the intended height ranges for it.  I know adults that would fit the medium scout.  

weird for sure, given the intended height ranges for it.  I know adults that would fit the medium scout. 

 

image 93

Actually quite nice they offer anything at all. I wish more brands would make bikes for...people on the edges of the size spectrum. I guess it's not the most profitable thing to do as a bike brand, in these times, but finding my 5'2'' wife a comfortable bike is actually pretty hard. 

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