Fox released gold lowers in 2014 already and they don't look that good imho. Same reason behind the idea as white marzocchi forks - to make you buy new stuff.
Fox released gold lowers in 2014 already and they don't look that good imho. Same reason behind the idea as white marzocchi forks - to make...
Fox released gold lowers in 2014 already and they don't look that good imho. Same reason behind the idea as white marzocchi forks - to make you buy new stuff.
They’re a bicycle part manufacturer. Aren’t they always trying to do that..?
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played...
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
apple vision ebike ride simulator. neurolink AXS brakes. jokes aside, I'd bet most of the development we'll see will be on the electronic side, but hoping that stimulates some rebound investment in the acoustic component and bike world
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played...
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market is polarized into sluggish heavy full power ebikes which weigh 25 kg+ and light ebikes who lack the grunt. I'd like to see something like the orbea rise without the annoying motor rattle and a derestricted motor plus 500 Wh battery which should come in at around 18-20 kg. Then there is also the integrated gearbox trend but that will just make the bikes heavier.
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played...
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
We were riding stuff on hardtails and 130 bikes long ago. Kona Stinky, Norco VPS-1, RM Slayer/Pipeline, these were 130 bikes. the current Druid, Optic, Endorphin is just updated versions of those bikes. Dont get so hung up on mm's of travel, geo and intended use are more important.
Bike innovation has always been gradual, its all marginal gains, theyre are very few cataclysmic changes.
We are on the precipice of electronic active suspension, which is incredibly complex, and can "release" some of the design compromises that currently plague mountain bikes (between climbing efficiency and descending efficiency) I dont think we have yet to see a bike that is designed around Flight Attendant or LiveWire systems, just integration into existing platforms.
When a manufacturer takes the chance to design with FA in mind, you might very well have a bike that can do both better (climb/descend) but we all have a different version of better...
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played...
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market...
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market is polarized into sluggish heavy full power ebikes which weigh 25 kg+ and light ebikes who lack the grunt. I'd like to see something like the orbea rise without the annoying motor rattle and a derestricted motor plus 500 Wh battery which should come in at around 18-20 kg. Then there is also the integrated gearbox trend but that will just make the bikes heavier.
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive to service and water ingress is a huge problem. Warranties are very high on e-bikes components. Servicing the rest of the bike is often a nightmare because of the cable routing with the battery motor combo.
You pay $8k for a product that is OK at best, and potentially shite and needs a warranty or major service fee in it's first year. They're just not a mature product yet IMO.
I think that's a bit exaggerated tbh. Yeah, there are problems but they are refined products by now but there are quite a few issues with reliability, repairability and noise that's true.
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played...
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market...
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market is polarized into sluggish heavy full power ebikes which weigh 25 kg+ and light ebikes who lack the grunt. I'd like to see something like the orbea rise without the annoying motor rattle and a derestricted motor plus 500 Wh battery which should come in at around 18-20 kg. Then there is also the integrated gearbox trend but that will just make the bikes heavier.
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive...
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive to service and water ingress is a huge problem. Warranties are very high on e-bikes components. Servicing the rest of the bike is often a nightmare because of the cable routing with the battery motor combo.
You pay $8k for a product that is OK at best, and potentially shite and needs a warranty or major service fee in it's first year. They're just not a mature product yet IMO.
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a technology plateau currently. I've owned my Turbo levo for 3, almost 4 years now and it's been a great bike. Other than having the motor replaced under warranty I've never had any motor/battery specific services. Just standard brake/tire/suspension maintenance. I'm not surprised with the current motor and battery issues with these bikes as most of the bigger brands are only on their 3rd or 4th iterations of e-mtb. so performance/reliability gains have been nominal but are still improving every year.
The motor on my Levo has never been loud enough to bother me, it's about what I'd expect for a motor putting out torque like that. I used to struggle on climbs so much to the point where I'd have to hop off and walk at least once or twice on a majority of climbs. However, the e-mtb changed that for me and let me ride much longer and further. It's gotten me to the point where I've gotten fit enough that I actually prefer riding my 'acoustic' bike now and have more stamina and strength than ever before and I definitely attribute that to the ebike as I never would've made those gains with my normal bike.
While having 1 motor replaced under warranty kinda sucks, I'm not too surprised given how premature these products are. Considering I didn't even have to pay for that replacement, my Levo hasn't cost anymore to maintain and ride than my other bikes and it's for sure been one of the best bike purchases I've ever made, but now I'm building up a druid v2
More electric suspension coming, for longer travel fork and shocks even dh
ebike are where the biggest development is going on. More mid power bikes that aren’t powerful enough.
give me a Bosch sx motor that puts out 85nm and around 2 hours use. Perfect (with some software changes it can be done now just not public)
Battery tech is there now for lighter batteries it would just cost too much
water ingress is a huge issue for e-bikes, they aren’t good enough yet we are still beta testers for them. The public doing R & D on behalf of a bike brand
Making a flight attendant only bike is technically a good idea, just expensive and kinda screams "custom". You're basically pigeonholed into using one specific suspension product on your complete model lineup. It's going to be hard to hit lower price points, you won't be able to cater to buyers that don't want Rock Shox or that don't want any batteries in their bikes even. It's a question if the gains of the a Flight Attendant focused frame are worth these limitations...
Idk with ebikes this electronic suspension stuff is kinda obsolete, at least when its not dh/traction focused. Water ingress and noise can be tackled on ebikes but it will add weight. and make maintenance more difficult.
Making a flight attendant only bike is technically a good idea, just expensive and kinda screams "custom". You're basically pigeonholed into using one specific suspension product...
Making a flight attendant only bike is technically a good idea, just expensive and kinda screams "custom". You're basically pigeonholed into using one specific suspension product on your complete model lineup. It's going to be hard to hit lower price points, you won't be able to cater to buyers that don't want Rock Shox or that don't want any batteries in their bikes even. It's a question if the gains of the a Flight Attendant focused frame are worth these limitations...
You wouldnt be trying to hit price points, or cater to everyone, obviously, theres a number of limitations to a bike designed around FA.
youve mentioned several reasonings as to why we havent seen a bike designed around FA, but that doesnt mean that a bike designed around it couldnt be spectacular. It would be a risky venture for sure, but I'd be willing to bet, if one company did it (thinking someone small and premium, Forbidden, Crestline, WAO, etc) others might follow. Maybe even just a made to order custom bike, maybe someone like Zocelli or WTF could come up with something.
Definitely a niche market, but it could be very cool.
I wish I had a better understanding of suspension design to think of something
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played...
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
I think we've had more development than is being recognized.
The last major shift in geometry was during the SBG/reduced offset period where reaches grew to ~475 on L, following that about a year or two later they shifted up slightly another 8-10mm where they've largely settled. That was a pretty dramatic change that's obvious to most, but I think there have been other changes that have flown a bit under the radar.
The past few years have brought improvements in suspension kinematics, more suspension options with more features (e.g. HBO), more powerful brakes, more durable frames, unique carbon rims (eg Convergence), and a lot of improvement in tire casing options for more aggressive riding.
I don't think development has plateaued as much as the improvements we're seeing are more low key or not as well communicated/recognized, but they are definitely there. Riding a bike like the OG Carbon Smuggler is totally different feeling than riding a 120mm bike now, but the changes aren't as sweeping or well communicated/understood. There has also been a wider shift towards smaller brands doing manufacturing in Europe, UK, or US (REEB, Starling, Actofive, etc)
Actually my Relay is the best handling bike I've ever ridden. The 430 watt battery is plenty for a several hour long ride. I don't care one bit about the mediocre controller or the display, as all it does is give me an idea of how much juice I have and I usually notice it 2-5x over a several hour ride. It has more than enough power for my needs. The motor is reliable enough and they are rebuildable for a couple of hundred and last a few years anyways.
Electric motors are very old technology and don't have room for significant improvement. If my battery was made of air the bike would be 5#s lighter. In reality it's going to take 5-10 years to get even a 20% improvement in battery capacity/ weights.
E-bikes will for sure continue to improve. But with the introduction of the Fazua 60 motor and the new Bosch mid-power, proper e-bikes have in fact arrived and further improvements will be incremental. Geo, taken from bikes is already dialed and now the motor packages are as well.
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market...
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market is polarized into sluggish heavy full power ebikes which weigh 25 kg+ and light ebikes who lack the grunt. I'd like to see something like the orbea rise without the annoying motor rattle and a derestricted motor plus 500 Wh battery which should come in at around 18-20 kg. Then there is also the integrated gearbox trend but that will just make the bikes heavier.
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive...
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive to service and water ingress is a huge problem. Warranties are very high on e-bikes components. Servicing the rest of the bike is often a nightmare because of the cable routing with the battery motor combo.
You pay $8k for a product that is OK at best, and potentially shite and needs a warranty or major service fee in it's first year. They're just not a mature product yet IMO.
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a...
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a technology plateau currently. I've owned my Turbo levo for 3, almost 4 years now and it's been a great bike. Other than having the motor replaced under warranty I've never had any motor/battery specific services. Just standard brake/tire/suspension maintenance. I'm not surprised with the current motor and battery issues with these bikes as most of the bigger brands are only on their 3rd or 4th iterations of e-mtb. so performance/reliability gains have been nominal but are still improving every year.
The motor on my Levo has never been loud enough to bother me, it's about what I'd expect for a motor putting out torque like that. I used to struggle on climbs so much to the point where I'd have to hop off and walk at least once or twice on a majority of climbs. However, the e-mtb changed that for me and let me ride much longer and further. It's gotten me to the point where I've gotten fit enough that I actually prefer riding my 'acoustic' bike now and have more stamina and strength than ever before and I definitely attribute that to the ebike as I never would've made those gains with my normal bike.
While having 1 motor replaced under warranty kinda sucks, I'm not too surprised given how premature these products are. Considering I didn't even have to pay for that replacement, my Levo hasn't cost anymore to maintain and ride than my other bikes and it's for sure been one of the best bike purchases I've ever made, but now I'm building up a druid v2
I think e-bikes aren't there only because of their incredibly high prices. If they were cheap I'd be fine with it.
What other product is out there that is $8k+ and everyone is like, you'll most likely have to warranty part of it in the first year.
The trek shop near me is just a revolving door of ebike motor swaps due to water ingress.
Slapping a 70nm motor onto a fragile 12speed lightweight drivetrain is also just crazy. Thankfully link-glide has fixed that quite a bit.
I'm very hopefully that in 5 years time e-bikes will be solid well developed products.
Currently they work, but in the same way when I was a kid I attached a lead blower motor to a bike, it worked too, but it wasn't exactly great.
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive...
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive to service and water ingress is a huge problem. Warranties are very high on e-bikes components. Servicing the rest of the bike is often a nightmare because of the cable routing with the battery motor combo.
You pay $8k for a product that is OK at best, and potentially shite and needs a warranty or major service fee in it's first year. They're just not a mature product yet IMO.
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a...
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a technology plateau currently. I've owned my Turbo levo for 3, almost 4 years now and it's been a great bike. Other than having the motor replaced under warranty I've never had any motor/battery specific services. Just standard brake/tire/suspension maintenance. I'm not surprised with the current motor and battery issues with these bikes as most of the bigger brands are only on their 3rd or 4th iterations of e-mtb. so performance/reliability gains have been nominal but are still improving every year.
The motor on my Levo has never been loud enough to bother me, it's about what I'd expect for a motor putting out torque like that. I used to struggle on climbs so much to the point where I'd have to hop off and walk at least once or twice on a majority of climbs. However, the e-mtb changed that for me and let me ride much longer and further. It's gotten me to the point where I've gotten fit enough that I actually prefer riding my 'acoustic' bike now and have more stamina and strength than ever before and I definitely attribute that to the ebike as I never would've made those gains with my normal bike.
While having 1 motor replaced under warranty kinda sucks, I'm not too surprised given how premature these products are. Considering I didn't even have to pay for that replacement, my Levo hasn't cost anymore to maintain and ride than my other bikes and it's for sure been one of the best bike purchases I've ever made, but now I'm building up a druid v2
If I remember correctly some ebike motors were designed for something like IP54 rating. Which is just crazy to me. I get that it's hard to reach the likes of IP67 or something similar with the input crank spindle and decoupled output spider, but it's not impossible... Or at least try to decouple the geartrain from the motor and electronics, make it serviceable, etc...
If I remember correctly some ebike motors were designed for something like IP54 rating. Which is just crazy to me. I get that it's hard to...
If I remember correctly some ebike motors were designed for something like IP54 rating. Which is just crazy to me. I get that it's hard to reach the likes of IP67 or something similar with the input crank spindle and decoupled output spider, but it's not impossible... Or at least try to decouple the geartrain from the motor and electronics, make it serviceable, etc...
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive...
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive to service and water ingress is a huge problem. Warranties are very high on e-bikes components. Servicing the rest of the bike is often a nightmare because of the cable routing with the battery motor combo.
You pay $8k for a product that is OK at best, and potentially shite and needs a warranty or major service fee in it's first year. They're just not a mature product yet IMO.
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a...
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a technology plateau currently. I've owned my Turbo levo for 3, almost 4 years now and it's been a great bike. Other than having the motor replaced under warranty I've never had any motor/battery specific services. Just standard brake/tire/suspension maintenance. I'm not surprised with the current motor and battery issues with these bikes as most of the bigger brands are only on their 3rd or 4th iterations of e-mtb. so performance/reliability gains have been nominal but are still improving every year.
The motor on my Levo has never been loud enough to bother me, it's about what I'd expect for a motor putting out torque like that. I used to struggle on climbs so much to the point where I'd have to hop off and walk at least once or twice on a majority of climbs. However, the e-mtb changed that for me and let me ride much longer and further. It's gotten me to the point where I've gotten fit enough that I actually prefer riding my 'acoustic' bike now and have more stamina and strength than ever before and I definitely attribute that to the ebike as I never would've made those gains with my normal bike.
While having 1 motor replaced under warranty kinda sucks, I'm not too surprised given how premature these products are. Considering I didn't even have to pay for that replacement, my Levo hasn't cost anymore to maintain and ride than my other bikes and it's for sure been one of the best bike purchases I've ever made, but now I'm building up a druid v2
I think e-bikes aren't there only because of their incredibly high prices. If they were cheap I'd be fine with it.
What other product is out...
I think e-bikes aren't there only because of their incredibly high prices. If they were cheap I'd be fine with it.
What other product is out there that is $8k+ and everyone is like, you'll most likely have to warranty part of it in the first year.
The trek shop near me is just a revolving door of ebike motor swaps due to water ingress.
Slapping a 70nm motor onto a fragile 12speed lightweight drivetrain is also just crazy. Thankfully link-glide has fixed that quite a bit.
I'm very hopefully that in 5 years time e-bikes will be solid well developed products.
Currently they work, but in the same way when I was a kid I attached a lead blower motor to a bike, it worked too, but it wasn't exactly great.
To be fair there are also a lot of motors/ebikes that don't fail. There are threads on ebike specific forums where people reach 25k miles on their first motor.
Many ebike riders also come from a moto/car background and didn't ride a regular bike before and don't use their brain too much when they buy an ebike. They spend 8k and think "well this machine must deal with everything I do" and then they shift with the motor (turbo mode all the time), ride the battery into the ground (it ages faster if you regularly empty it until it switches off and let it sit around) and ride under water. I read forum posts where some dude proudly claimed he rode through a creek and the motor "was just fine".
If I remember correctly some ebike motors were designed for something like IP54 rating. Which is just crazy to me. I get that it's hard to...
If I remember correctly some ebike motors were designed for something like IP54 rating. Which is just crazy to me. I get that it's hard to reach the likes of IP67 or something similar with the input crank spindle and decoupled output spider, but it's not impossible... Or at least try to decouple the geartrain from the motor and electronics, make it serviceable, etc...
How much of an update is that compared to the original? I know the original one was developed in Slovenia... I'm not sure if the upgrade was taken care by someone else or by the same company though.
Did anyone catch the YT in the Ochain press release? It had a similar layout as an Izzo but with an X2 and a 38. Potato phone is struggling to post a pic but here is the link https://m.pinkbike.com/news/ochain-components-a-whole-new-range.html
I just got sent the pic by a friend who doesn’t know anything about it. Anyone have ideas what Fox will do with their new Grip X2 damper?
Fox released gold lowers in 2014 already and they don't look that good imho. Same reason behind the idea as white marzocchi forks - to make you buy new stuff.
Speaking of sliding links algorithm popped this up in my feed.
Its from December but I don’t remember seeing before
They’re a bicycle part manufacturer. Aren’t they always trying to do that..?
Looks like an over-suspension'd Izzo, frame details are exactly an Izzo, down to the chainstay protection. Cool but strange build.
Endu-country?
Down-uro?
We may have hit a plateau in development.. At least until someone figures out something new in materials or design. 32in wheels are already being played with..
Bike weights... Yes, bikes are getting heavier.. But, riders are pushing them harder. People are riding 130mm bikes on stuff that 160mm bikes were considered the normal for only a few years ago..
Someone mentioned ebikes getting more development.. I'd say that's true on the motor and battery side.. That technology is developing at a way faster pace. It's just a matter of time before it comes to a price point that is feasible for the bike market. Batteries are gaining more energy density, so more power in a given amount of space..
Where is the next big step that gets us all excited?
apple vision ebike ride simulator. neurolink AXS brakes. jokes aside, I'd bet most of the development we'll see will be on the electronic side, but hoping that stimulates some rebound investment in the acoustic component and bike world
Aww jeez. So we've got acoustic components as well as bikes now? I'm off to find some clouds to shout at.
For ebikes there isn't infinite improvement in battery in motor technology at least with the current gen stuff. The main problem is now that the market is polarized into sluggish heavy full power ebikes which weigh 25 kg+ and light ebikes who lack the grunt. I'd like to see something like the orbea rise without the annoying motor rattle and a derestricted motor plus 500 Wh battery which should come in at around 18-20 kg. Then there is also the integrated gearbox trend but that will just make the bikes heavier.
We were riding stuff on hardtails and 130 bikes long ago. Kona Stinky, Norco VPS-1, RM Slayer/Pipeline, these were 130 bikes. the current Druid, Optic, Endorphin is just updated versions of those bikes. Dont get so hung up on mm's of travel, geo and intended use are more important.
Bike innovation has always been gradual, its all marginal gains, theyre are very few cataclysmic changes.
We are on the precipice of electronic active suspension, which is incredibly complex, and can "release" some of the design compromises that currently plague mountain bikes (between climbing efficiency and descending efficiency) I dont think we have yet to see a bike that is designed around Flight Attendant or LiveWire systems, just integration into existing platforms.
When a manufacturer takes the chance to design with FA in mind, you might very well have a bike that can do both better (climb/descend) but we all have a different version of better...
The main problem is that e-bikes just aren't a great product yet. .
The controllers and displays are meh. The motors are noisy and are expensive to service and water ingress is a huge problem. Warranties are very high on e-bikes components. Servicing the rest of the bike is often a nightmare because of the cable routing with the battery motor combo.
You pay $8k for a product that is OK at best, and potentially shite and needs a warranty or major service fee in it's first year. They're just not a mature product yet IMO.
I think that's a bit exaggerated tbh. Yeah, there are problems but they are refined products by now but there are quite a few issues with reliability, repairability and noise that's true.
Definitely a bit exaggerated but on the right track. Ebikes are slowly getting lighter and more powerful but I feel like it is more of a technology plateau currently. I've owned my Turbo levo for 3, almost 4 years now and it's been a great bike. Other than having the motor replaced under warranty I've never had any motor/battery specific services. Just standard brake/tire/suspension maintenance. I'm not surprised with the current motor and battery issues with these bikes as most of the bigger brands are only on their 3rd or 4th iterations of e-mtb. so performance/reliability gains have been nominal but are still improving every year.
The motor on my Levo has never been loud enough to bother me, it's about what I'd expect for a motor putting out torque like that. I used to struggle on climbs so much to the point where I'd have to hop off and walk at least once or twice on a majority of climbs. However, the e-mtb changed that for me and let me ride much longer and further. It's gotten me to the point where I've gotten fit enough that I actually prefer riding my 'acoustic' bike now and have more stamina and strength than ever before and I definitely attribute that to the ebike as I never would've made those gains with my normal bike.
While having 1 motor replaced under warranty kinda sucks, I'm not too surprised given how premature these products are. Considering I didn't even have to pay for that replacement, my Levo hasn't cost anymore to maintain and ride than my other bikes and it's for sure been one of the best bike purchases I've ever made, but now I'm building up a druid v2
With the intube designs and bigger batteries full power ebikes got way heavier. Many brands have full power ebikes that weigh 26 kg or more.
Then the motor of the levo is more quiet because of the belt but that's what's also making it unreliable.
From what I'm hearing bosch seems to be quite reliable.
More electric suspension coming, for longer travel fork and shocks even dh
ebike are where the biggest development is going on. More mid power bikes that aren’t powerful enough.
give me a Bosch sx motor that puts out 85nm and around 2 hours use. Perfect (with some software changes it can be done now just not public)
Battery tech is there now for lighter batteries it would just cost too much
water ingress is a huge issue for e-bikes, they aren’t good enough yet we are still beta testers for them. The public doing R & D on behalf of a bike brand
Making a flight attendant only bike is technically a good idea, just expensive and kinda screams "custom". You're basically pigeonholed into using one specific suspension product on your complete model lineup. It's going to be hard to hit lower price points, you won't be able to cater to buyers that don't want Rock Shox or that don't want any batteries in their bikes even. It's a question if the gains of the a Flight Attendant focused frame are worth these limitations...
Idk with ebikes this electronic suspension stuff is kinda obsolete, at least when its not dh/traction focused. Water ingress and noise can be tackled on ebikes but it will add weight. and make maintenance more difficult.
You wouldnt be trying to hit price points, or cater to everyone, obviously, theres a number of limitations to a bike designed around FA.
youve mentioned several reasonings as to why we havent seen a bike designed around FA, but that doesnt mean that a bike designed around it couldnt be spectacular. It would be a risky venture for sure, but I'd be willing to bet, if one company did it (thinking someone small and premium, Forbidden, Crestline, WAO, etc) others might follow. Maybe even just a made to order custom bike, maybe someone like Zocelli or WTF could come up with something.
Definitely a niche market, but it could be very cool.
I wish I had a better understanding of suspension design to think of something
I think we've had more development than is being recognized.
The last major shift in geometry was during the SBG/reduced offset period where reaches grew to ~475 on L, following that about a year or two later they shifted up slightly another 8-10mm where they've largely settled. That was a pretty dramatic change that's obvious to most, but I think there have been other changes that have flown a bit under the radar.
The past few years have brought improvements in suspension kinematics, more suspension options with more features (e.g. HBO), more powerful brakes, more durable frames, unique carbon rims (eg Convergence), and a lot of improvement in tire casing options for more aggressive riding.
I don't think development has plateaued as much as the improvements we're seeing are more low key or not as well communicated/recognized, but they are definitely there. Riding a bike like the OG Carbon Smuggler is totally different feeling than riding a 120mm bike now, but the changes aren't as sweeping or well communicated/understood. There has also been a wider shift towards smaller brands doing manufacturing in Europe, UK, or US (REEB, Starling, Actofive, etc)
Actually my Relay is the best handling bike I've ever ridden. The 430 watt battery is plenty for a several hour long ride. I don't care one bit about the mediocre controller or the display, as all it does is give me an idea of how much juice I have and I usually notice it 2-5x over a several hour ride. It has more than enough power for my needs. The motor is reliable enough and they are rebuildable for a couple of hundred and last a few years anyways.
Electric motors are very old technology and don't have room for significant improvement. If my battery was made of air the bike would be 5#s lighter. In reality it's going to take 5-10 years to get even a 20% improvement in battery capacity/ weights.
E-bikes will for sure continue to improve. But with the introduction of the Fazua 60 motor and the new Bosch mid-power, proper e-bikes have in fact arrived and further improvements will be incremental. Geo, taken from bikes is already dialed and now the motor packages are as well.
I think e-bikes aren't there only because of their incredibly high prices. If they were cheap I'd be fine with it.
What other product is out there that is $8k+ and everyone is like, you'll most likely have to warranty part of it in the first year.
The trek shop near me is just a revolving door of ebike motor swaps due to water ingress.
Slapping a 70nm motor onto a fragile 12speed lightweight drivetrain is also just crazy. Thankfully link-glide has fixed that quite a bit.
I'm very hopefully that in 5 years time e-bikes will be solid well developed products.
Currently they work, but in the same way when I was a kid I attached a lead blower motor to a bike, it worked too, but it wasn't exactly great.
Thats crazy, My Bosch has been solid, though not on a trek its been submerged and no worries!
Must be the XXL size to fit that X2 on there.
If I remember correctly some ebike motors were designed for something like IP54 rating. Which is just crazy to me. I get that it's hard to reach the likes of IP67 or something similar with the input crank spindle and decoupled output spider, but it's not impossible... Or at least try to decouple the geartrain from the motor and electronics, make it serviceable, etc...
specialized sl 1.2 is ip 67 rated
To be fair there are also a lot of motors/ebikes that don't fail. There are threads on ebike specific forums where people reach 25k miles on their first motor.
Many ebike riders also come from a moto/car background and didn't ride a regular bike before and don't use their brain too much when they buy an ebike. They spend 8k and think "well this machine must deal with everything I do" and then they shift with the motor (turbo mode all the time), ride the battery into the ground (it ages faster if you regularly empty it until it switches off and let it sit around) and ride under water. I read forum posts where some dude proudly claimed he rode through a creek and the motor "was just fine".
How much of an update is that compared to the original? I know the original one was developed in Slovenia... I'm not sure if the upgrade was taken care by someone else or by the same company though.