MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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TEAMROBOT
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Los Angeles, CA US
Fantasy
1/23/2024 11:33am
Splayleg wrote:

Do you know any engineer that has podiumed at a World Cup? Not sure a degree is better than tires in the trenches

I think Jesse Melamed is also an engineer.

I'm pretty sure Loic studied mechanical engineering in university, as well

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Kusa
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CH
1/23/2024 12:31pm
PellyNH wrote:

New Ibis Ripmo AF and Ripley AF are live: https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/ripley-af

The only difference I see is UDH and new colors.

Damn i was hoping they will at least do something with that top tube like on HD6 🥲

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1/23/2024 1:15pm

The only difference I see is UDH and new colors.

Looks like we won't be seeing updated full models for at least a year, more likely 2+. Ripley V4 dropped in 2019. If they're releasing this rear triangle without a whole new bike, V5 is likely at least a year off. Meaning 2025.... 6 (or more) years for a model, un-changed. You didn't ever see that from the ~2010-2022 timeframe when bikes were constantly being updated and changed with the latest and greatest. As I said, evolution is slowing down a ton. For engineering reasons, but also being made worse by the market hurting badly. 

 

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PellyNH
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Austin, TX US
1/23/2024 1:28pm

The only difference I see is UDH and new colors.

Looks like we won't be seeing updated full models for at least a year, more likely 2+. Ripley V4 dropped in 2019. If they're releasing this...

Looks like we won't be seeing updated full models for at least a year, more likely 2+. Ripley V4 dropped in 2019. If they're releasing this rear triangle without a whole new bike, V5 is likely at least a year off. Meaning 2025.... 6 (or more) years for a model, un-changed. You didn't ever see that from the ~2010-2022 timeframe when bikes were constantly being updated and changed with the latest and greatest. As I said, evolution is slowing down a ton. For engineering reasons, but also being made worse by the market hurting badly. 

 

I'm not sure.....supposedly, the updated Ripmo was already set to launch and they opted to hold it back. (likely to clear excess inventory)

Ibis currently shows 25% off factory sales on Ripmo, Ripley, and Exie. Normally, that would mean clearing the way for new models. However, these days I honestly don't know if it means anything...

 

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1/23/2024 2:08pm
smelly wrote:
It’s curious how Greg (Norco, really) and Neko are saying completely different things. Neko spends two years developing a race bike and concludes you can’t adjust...

It’s curious how Greg (Norco, really) and Neko are saying completely different things. Neko spends two years developing a race bike and concludes you can’t adjust anything independently, every change will affect something else. And complexity breeds its own challenges with marginal performance improvement. 
 

Norco heads in the exact opposite direction, highly complex suspension with claims of independent adjustability. Making those changes in isolation would be so time consuming. To slacken the head angle and keep bb height the same you’ve have to switch out flip chips for both. Changing HA alters your front center, unless you move the BB - which would then change the rear center. According to Neko, any COG changes affect suspension  and if you can’t trust Neko, who can you trust? 

on a personal level, bikes already require so much maintenance I can’t see buying something complicated for a marginal performance benefit I’m not talented enough to reap. As it stands my bikes need a couple full tear downs and rebuilds a year, which is like a half day job that would cost me $500 to have a shop do it all. Heaven forbid you’ve got headset routing.or more than 4 pivots. 

the complex 6-bar suspension that norco is using allows for more fine tuning due to different bars of the suspension controlling specific kinematics. Neko was adamant...

the complex 6-bar suspension that norco is using allows for more fine tuning due to different bars of the suspension controlling specific kinematics. Neko was adamant about not using a suspension platform any more complex than a 4 bar to reduce production cost and manufacturing complexity. Building a bike is harder than it looks and Neko did it without the big corporation money. Norco had enough money to design, develop, and patent a crazy new dh concept AND sign on Greg. Im sure we can convince Neko to develop a 6 bar bike for the next iteration. Maybe an 8 bar...?

Primoz wrote:

The Norco is a 4bar... 

you seen their latest prototype?

 

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synBike
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North Vancouver, BC CA
1/23/2024 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2024 3:19pm
the complex 6-bar suspension that norco is using allows for more fine tuning due to different bars of the suspension controlling specific kinematics. Neko was adamant...

the complex 6-bar suspension that norco is using allows for more fine tuning due to different bars of the suspension controlling specific kinematics. Neko was adamant about not using a suspension platform any more complex than a 4 bar to reduce production cost and manufacturing complexity. Building a bike is harder than it looks and Neko did it without the big corporation money. Norco had enough money to design, develop, and patent a crazy new dh concept AND sign on Greg. Im sure we can convince Neko to develop a 6 bar bike for the next iteration. Maybe an 8 bar...?

Primoz wrote:

The Norco is a 4bar... 

you seen their latest prototype?

 

Don't open this can of worms again Grinning. Someone got in in their head that a 6 bar linkage bike is only a "real" 6 bar if the wheel and not the shock is attached to the follower links.

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monarchmason
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Nevada City, CA US
1/23/2024 3:44pm
synBike wrote:
Don't open this can of worms again . Someone got in in their head that a 6 bar linkage bike is only a "real" 6 bar if...

Don't open this can of worms again Grinning. Someone got in in their head that a 6 bar linkage bike is only a "real" 6 bar if the wheel and not the shock is attached to the follower links.

“Dont open this can of worms again.”

*proceeds to swiftly open it*

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dolface
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CA US
1/23/2024 5:25pm

"Well the tech rumors thread keeps getting derailed and I like kinematics as much as anyone else so figured I’d start a thread on it."

Here ya go: https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/kinematics?page=0

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RockHugger
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Denver, CO US
1/23/2024 8:05pm
PellyNH wrote:

New Ibis Ripmo AF and Ripley AF are live: https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/ripley-af

The only difference I see is UDH and new colors.

download

I can’t see them bringing a new design to market with the AF first. Carbon would lead. Big sales plus retailers selling all their demo fleets leaves me hopeful something more is coming. 

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Outlawed
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Fantasy
1/23/2024 9:48pm

Anyone heard what happened with the fork that Marzocchi was teasing prior to Rampage?

1/23/2024 10:11pm
Outlawed wrote:

Anyone heard what happened with the fork that Marzocchi was teasing prior to Rampage?

Yeah they've been on sale since 2020, just mis-labelled as a Fox 40, whatever that is

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Primoz
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SI
1/23/2024 11:08pm
the complex 6-bar suspension that norco is using allows for more fine tuning due to different bars of the suspension controlling specific kinematics. Neko was adamant...

the complex 6-bar suspension that norco is using allows for more fine tuning due to different bars of the suspension controlling specific kinematics. Neko was adamant about not using a suspension platform any more complex than a 4 bar to reduce production cost and manufacturing complexity. Building a bike is harder than it looks and Neko did it without the big corporation money. Norco had enough money to design, develop, and patent a crazy new dh concept AND sign on Greg. Im sure we can convince Neko to develop a 6 bar bike for the next iteration. Maybe an 8 bar...?

Primoz wrote:

The Norco is a 4bar... 

you seen their latest prototype?

 

Yes. It's 4 bar. 

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4
1/23/2024 11:28pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2024 11:31pm

IMG 5902
Anyone seen these from Lewis brakes? Can an 8-piston brake for Surron mean, for example, a lighter6-piston version for MTBs or e-MTBs? Wink  

Still wondering why Hope stopped working on the new version of the 6-pot 2-3 years ago with all the positive feedback they received from the testing guys…

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TimBud
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1/23/2024 11:45pm
Anyone seen these from Lewis brakes? Can an 8-piston brake for Surron mean, for example, a lighter6-piston version for MTBs or e-MTBs? ;)  Still wondering why...

IMG 5902
Anyone seen these from Lewis brakes? Can an 8-piston brake for Surron mean, for example, a lighter6-piston version for MTBs or e-MTBs? Wink  

Still wondering why Hope stopped working on the new version of the 6-pot 2-3 years ago with all the positive feedback they received from the testing guys…

Adam Brayton said it was too powerful and they shelved it… apparently.

A real shame as it might have tempted me back to them. There’s no such thing as too powerful- just pull the lever less

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krabo83
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1/24/2024 12:04am
Splayleg wrote:

Do you know any engineer that has podiumed at a World Cup? Not sure a degree is better than tires in the trenches

I think Jesse Melamed is also an engineer.

TEAMROBOT wrote:

I'm pretty sure Loic studied mechanical engineering in university, as well

i think loic studied marketing, because in some vlog some years ago he was an intern at 100% during the offseason and he said he needed that for university.

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1/24/2024 12:35am
TimBud wrote:
Adam Brayton said it was too powerful and they shelved it… apparently. A real shame as it might have tempted me back to them. There’s no...

Adam Brayton said it was too powerful and they shelved it… apparently.

A real shame as it might have tempted me back to them. There’s no such thing as too powerful- just pull the lever less

Yes, there's such thing as too powerful. But it's relative to your tyre (and your tiredness) essentially. Put some Shimano Saint, Trickstuff Power pas, with 220mm rotors and Maxxis Rekon Race tires, you'll see if there's no such thing as too powerful Grinning

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1
TimBud
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GB
1/24/2024 1:35am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2024 1:36am
Yes, there's such thing as too powerful. But it's relative to your tyre (and your tiredness) essentially. Put some Shimano Saint, Trickstuff Power pas, with 220mm...

Yes, there's such thing as too powerful. But it's relative to your tyre (and your tiredness) essentially. Put some Shimano Saint, Trickstuff Power pas, with 220mm rotors and Maxxis Rekon Race tires, you'll see if there's no such thing as too powerful Grinning

Why not take the tyres off altogether and wax your rims!

That’s not a brake issue, that’s a tyre (user setup) issue.

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1
1/24/2024 2:10am

So you basically say exactly what I said, the most important thing is the brake power relatively to the setup. Thanks.

1
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TimBud
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GB
1/24/2024 2:24am

So you basically say exactly what I said, the most important thing is the brake power relatively to the setup. Thanks.

Your tyre choice and setup doesn't make a brake too powerful.

That's akin to getting some griptape pedals and complaining because your feet keep slipping.

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1/24/2024 2:47am
TimBud wrote:

Your tyre choice and setup doesn't make a brake too powerful.

That's akin to getting some griptape pedals and complaining because your feet keep slipping.

Yeah, cause it's much more simple to being very sensible with your finger, especially with some tiredness, than having the right braking power for your setup and just having to start your braking with pushing the lever all the way no matter what (and not having your tire slipping, when your brake is, you know, too powerful) THEN modulating.

 

I'm not trying to say "ride with a 160mm SRAM Level T and all will be easier" at all. It's just a matter of right setup.

2
TimBud
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1/24/2024 3:33am

Oh man I appreciate a powerful brake even more when I’m tired… I don’t have to pull hard to make them work.

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2
1/24/2024 3:43am
TimBud wrote:

Oh man I appreciate a powerful brake even more when I’m tired… I don’t have to pull hard to make them work.

There's pulling all the way, and pulling all the way hard, I tried to say about the first one.

On this quote I see what you mean tho'.

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2
FullSend
Posts
190
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Location
DE
1/24/2024 5:01am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2024 7:43am
AndehM wrote:
Neko also has been very concerned about being able to manufacture these frames on a small scale while still hitting the required tolerances.  I think a...

Neko also has been very concerned about being able to manufacture these frames on a small scale while still hitting the required tolerances.  I think a lot of the stuff the Norco proto has in it will be incredibly tight for tolerances (like the eccentric machined BB area, the front shock mount, etc.).  Neko was having issues with just getting the swingarm to align well with the main triangle, which is why he went to carbon.  Every one of those adjustment features built into the frame adds a lot of complexity and demand for strict tolerance.  And besides this being an issue with durability, alignment issues can cause real issues with suspension performance.

I've got a bike by a big name with lots of adjustment built into it, and honestly, I'd rather they spent the time getting tighter tolerances.  The angle adjust headset cups are really picky about preload and being packed with grease otherwise they creak.  The rear end loves to move the linkage bearings, I'm speculating due to a tiny bit of misalignment between the rear and front.  But it's nothing obvious enough that I'd be able to win any warranty claim.

chriskief wrote:
The latest PB podcast with Jessie Melamed goes into tolerance issues. Carbon frames coming out of the mold with minor differences (a couple millimeters here and...

The latest PB podcast with Jessie Melamed goes into tolerance issues. Carbon frames coming out of the mold with minor differences (a couple millimeters here and there). And why two “identical” bikes aren’t riding exactly the same. Well worth a listen.

Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth.

The reason for that is quite simple: Minor imperfections during manufacturing are adding up. At this point, all carbon fibre bike frames are largely manufactured by hand (- except some exotics like Atherton or CDuro). Prepregs are placed and applied (- pressed into the mold) by hand, when dry sheets are being used, even the epoxy matrix is applied by hand. The same thing goes for the application of thread inserts, mould cores, vacuum bags, etc. It's all manual labour and as such it's always done slightly imperfect. Unfortunately those minor imperfections all add up and as a result you'll get a frame that's slightly warped, not exactly in plane, has bolt holes that aren't perfectly straight, has uneven amounts of lateral flex because of localized delamination, etc.

This isn't any different for any manufacturer btw. Doesn't matter if you've bought an expensive Specialized or a cheap Canyon. The only difference between those two is that one has undergone a more thorough quality control process and so, as a customer, you're less likely to receive a frame that's misaligned due to manufacturing errors (- because those frames will ideally have been filtered out during qc).

The secret to a good frame (alloy or carbon) is a thorough and strict quality control process.

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Trocko
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Location
Rocky, CO US
1/24/2024 9:25am

Custom link and possibly something hiding around the stem?

 

IMG 1317 3

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1/24/2024 10:50am
Trocko wrote:
Custom link and possibly something hiding around the stem?  

Custom link and possibly something hiding around the stem?

 

IMG 1317 3

Looks like the next marketing gimmick will be steering damper of some sort Pinch

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2
ERGue
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Sedro Woolley, WA US
1/24/2024 12:06pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2024 1:41pm
FullSend wrote:
Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth. The reason for that...

Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth.

The reason for that is quite simple: Minor imperfections during manufacturing are adding up. At this point, all carbon fibre bike frames are largely manufactured by hand (- except some exotics like Atherton or CDuro). Prepregs are placed and applied (- pressed into the mold) by hand, when dry sheets are being used, even the epoxy matrix is applied by hand. The same thing goes for the application of thread inserts, mould cores, vacuum bags, etc. It's all manual labour and as such it's always done slightly imperfect. Unfortunately those minor imperfections all add up and as a result you'll get a frame that's slightly warped, not exactly in plane, has bolt holes that aren't perfectly straight, has uneven amounts of lateral flex because of localized delamination, etc.

This isn't any different for any manufacturer btw. Doesn't matter if you've bought an expensive Specialized or a cheap Canyon. The only difference between those two is that one has undergone a more thorough quality control process and so, as a customer, you're less likely to receive a frame that's misaligned due to manufacturing errors (- because those frames will ideally have been filtered out during qc).

The secret to a good frame (alloy or carbon) is a thorough and strict quality control process.

Well you are correct that a carbon frame can have alignment issues but I think what Neko is referring too is that warpage and the  misalignment issues that result from welding is are more severe and harder to overcome manufacturing wise than something that comes out of a mold like Carbon. A post machining process on a jig would solve these issues in either method of course. My big concern with CFRP in a non Aerospace application like Bicycle frames is definitely QC  because as you pointed out, there is countless ways to f-up such a labor intensive process like laying a carbon frame. Hoping that the rumors of a weldable 7075 aluminum alloy come true in the near future, would make carbon obsolete.

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1/24/2024 1:20pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2024 1:22pm
FullSend wrote:
Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth. The reason for that...

Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth.

The reason for that is quite simple: Minor imperfections during manufacturing are adding up. At this point, all carbon fibre bike frames are largely manufactured by hand (- except some exotics like Atherton or CDuro). Prepregs are placed and applied (- pressed into the mold) by hand, when dry sheets are being used, even the epoxy matrix is applied by hand. The same thing goes for the application of thread inserts, mould cores, vacuum bags, etc. It's all manual labour and as such it's always done slightly imperfect. Unfortunately those minor imperfections all add up and as a result you'll get a frame that's slightly warped, not exactly in plane, has bolt holes that aren't perfectly straight, has uneven amounts of lateral flex because of localized delamination, etc.

This isn't any different for any manufacturer btw. Doesn't matter if you've bought an expensive Specialized or a cheap Canyon. The only difference between those two is that one has undergone a more thorough quality control process and so, as a customer, you're less likely to receive a frame that's misaligned due to manufacturing errors (- because those frames will ideally have been filtered out during qc).

The secret to a good frame (alloy or carbon) is a thorough and strict quality control process.

I agree with what your saying but Carbon is still considerably more repeatable than Alloy.
Whether is QC or what but ive had some absolutely terrible Alloy frames, The best frames are the premium brands made by Merida, including their own, this is both alloy and carbon for e.g Specilized are manufacturerd(and half owned) by Merida

Im currently on a Merida one sixty alloy, the latest one and man they are so nice Quality wise.
The merida replaced a Canyon torque(alloy) and my goodness the difference in quality is like comparing Toy RC cars at Kmart etc to proper hobby ones. 4 brand new torque frames in my garage, all massively out of alignment. - For reference, Canyon did replace with a Carbon frame which had Zero issues and aligned perfectly. Ill never forget the CS guy saying: "theres a reason those models are cheap right now"

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