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Regarding the chain guide, most wc racers don't seem to run lower guides unless they have to because high pivot wizardry, adjusting just the top guide should be all that's needed as you could run slightly bigger bash guard to cover chain ring in all positions (or change between bigger and smaller one if you are perfectionist,just two bolts typically so no big deal either)
That would really help Manitou out, as they've got a better damper than Fox or Rockshox. Their stuff might not be as light, but it might get more adjusted to that reverse arch again.
Seems it expired two years ago which was just before the fox gravel fork came out. I wonder if we start to see more going forward?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6607185B2/en
I would love that reverse arch 32 for my gravel bike. It keeps the mud/dust/rocks off the stanchions far more effectively than a standard fork.
I always dual fender my gravel bikes. What’s the point of gravel if you are too muddy to stop at a bar mid ride 😂
worlds bike abuse vid for studying and dissecting
Finn and Loic’s Prototype Demos really standout to me as far the most composed looking bikes. Could possibly be that they both have similar riding styles or maybe it’s the bike?
You can see with the suspension bottomed the linkage running under the bb. To me, looks like an ancilotti-style linkage is hidden, combined with the visible seatstay pivots.
Their suspension is more composed than the other teams, as Ohlins have no issue giving them whatever they ask for, whereas all the other teams (Fox and Rockshox) have to run stock product and only adjust pressure, damping clicks etc. So Ohlins can run lots of damping with custom tuning, whereas everyone else can just max out the clicks. Thats why every dialed video Jordi is just like, err have you tried running more pressure? (Fox forks in generally use the spring to provide support instead of more damping, and therefore look lest composed), I'm not saying which setup is faster though.
That silver link is much shorter than I was previously thinking. This is likely way more progressive than the real deal but I updated my older guess to shorten the 'pull' link and move the linkage pivot to concentric with the BB (which to me is the only option that makes sense given the super short link). I did this in a hurry so it's not very accurate even to that photo, but I found it interesting more as a proof of concept since this general shape of the leverage curve is considered 'desirable' by lots of people but hasn't been used by Specialized before.
While Loic and Finn's bikes are indeed oddly glued to the ground, to say that Fox and RS can only offer clicky adjustments is just not true. Fox offers multiple tune options on rear shocks to athletes and custom ones to the top athletes (most notably Greg). RS does the same.
What about forks?
Same thing. Both use shim stacks and you can tune those pretty much to your hearts content (staying withing the limitations of stack height and shim stack charscteridtics of course...).
I wonder if we'll ever see a spool valve shock on mountain bikes before the Multimatic patent runs out...
Hm, as far as I know, both charger 3 and grip 2 vvc are highly problematic from tuning standpoint.
Forks also less often require tuning or revalving because they are all used in the same manner - there isn't a frame with the leverage ratio influencing the forces at the wheel, it's directly the spring and damper providing the force.
My hunch is that Ohlins has taken more of a motocross approach to tuning the suspension, and have set aside resources to develop tunes/setups for Specialized’s riders and bikes. The impression I get for Fox and RS is that the sponsored teams are provided with a selection of their available stock tunes and maybe a weekend of testing with someone like Jordi. Let’s say the stock tunes don’t suite their needs, then of course they will try and come up with something better, especially for a team/rider on the pointy end of the results, however the resources to do it properly, probably are not there. I know a lot of speculation here but like I said just a hunch.
Nothing is stopping the top teams from buying telemetry equipment and finding an expert to work with to make custom tunes. It's not exactly rocket science I imagine, you mount the hardware, make some runs, see what is happening and what the rider says then fix the issues that present themselves. Shims are not hard to acquire, shimstactor is not particularly expensive and you make a custom tune... Apply and repeat the runs to see where you land at. It's something that should easily be done in a few day long riding camp. And servicing the suspension is also not rocket science, it's easily done by the team mechanic...
There are some motorsport series around now the use spec dampers for cost reasons. Not sure if that also covers damping tunes and/or adjustment ranges, but at first thought it seems much more restrictive than what is allowed with bikes.
Yea but are they, especially with tech like VVC that makes a shim shuffle infinitely harder?
VVC forks still use a shim stack. Might be a bit harder to tune, that is true, but I do not know the specifics of those forks. Haven't had the "pleasure" of having one taken apart. I drew the line at the Grip 1 damper and much prefer to stick to Rock Shox stuff. It's infinitely easier to service, requires just a few fairly cheap special tools (compared to Fox stuff) and compared to the Grip 1 damper seems better made. Based on what I have seen through limited experience (I am not a suspension tech by the slightest).
Agree on the simplicity aspect, RS is my current goto.
All I want in suspension is simplicity, serviceability, and reliability. Performance wise, I think things have plateaued and have had for a while. No gimmicks pease.
Oh, and cost of course XD
Quite interesting... I don't know if it has already been speculated at some point or if my eyes are starting to play tricks on me, but when watching the Pivot proto on super slomo, it seems to me that on some compressions the chainring and the upper pulley are not rotating "together". Could it be possible that they have implemented a sort of decoupling on the axle of the pulley, isolating the "gears" chain from the "crank" chain to avoid pedal kickback ? I guess a kind of ratchet system could be use to do so ?
VVC doesn't work like a typical shim stack, you can wedge 4 times the shims in there and it will do next to nothing. It involves incredibly fine tolerance machining of the standard parts (or a remake) then dyno'd and changed again and again as even 0.05mm preload will change the characteristics of the damper massively. It isn't worth the stuff around.
A Fitgrip (or Grip1) tuned, different story, I have said this numerous times here, but it's a better damper than VVC Grip 2. Tuning Grip1 is not exactly easy either and involves again trial and error.
This is not something that can be done in the Fox Van in a carpark, unless the van has a lathe, dyno and a room for the tuner to scream when the preload adjustment gave less compression damping than before lol.
I think the inside idler being so much smaller than the outside one will reduce any feedback through the pedals so you wouldn’t really need an o-chain type of solution. Picture from pinkbike shows the inner and outer idlers use an interface similar to a crank arm but with three radial locking bolts instead of a concentric crank bolt (picture from pinkbike).
Can anyone on here who’s good at numbers and stuff explain how you’d figure out gear ratios on this beast?
They offer custom tunes, but it is still the stock product just modified (although I dont specifically know about what Greg gets, just some of the aussie riders and frenchies).
The fact is that the WC teams are run from marketing budgets from their sponsors, they are not allowed to modify or run a totally different product, they use what they get told to use and tune it to the best of their ability.
I know for a fact a certain rider was running a custom cartridge in his fork and got in a lot of trouble from their sponsor for it, its not allowed. If it gets out that riders are ditching Charger 3 or VVC or whatever tech they have, its very bad news.
You guys should go have some beers with WC mechanics some time is all ill say.
When you say "stock product" are you meaning the shock body is the same, but the teams can run modified internals? Because this is what Öhlins does. Aside from what we can't see under Loic & Finn's mystery covers, all of the Öhlins product I see (including Jordan's) is a stock TTX shock body and stock TTX 38 fork lowers/stanchions/crowns. Stock product, but with custom jiggered internals. They aren't opening new molds and forgings just for 2 people and 2 people only.
I completely agree that brands hate seeing modified/swapped out product, but you would too if it were your products they were messing with. Putting an Öhlins cartridge inside a Boxxer won't make any team happy, regardless of marketing rules or not. If by some chance Fox comes out with a range of fork dampers that can fit inside an Öhlins chassis that is better than what Öhlins can make, Öhlins would hate seeing their dampers swapped out too. I guess at the end of the day "custom suspension" really comes down to taking an existing suspension platform and tweaking the guts of it. Or launching a new prototype that only a few (Loic & Finn perhaps?) have access to until it is available to a wider audience of athletes. Both of those scenarios apply to all of the suspension manufacturers. Are some brands going to do a better job of it than others? Sure, I think that will always be the case. But it's hard to argue that the products from Fox and RS are genuinely sub-par when they took all of the gold medals at DH World's. Of course, it's more indian than arrow, but the arrows still need to be pretty legit for that to happen.
This is just not true, top riders often use revalved or non-stock dampers in both forks and shocks. It is also pretty clear from the Dialed series you mentioned. Also, there are really no A-kit forks or shocks sold on the market for DH bikes unlike for MX for example, so it will always be revalved stuff. Also, brands might not want people knowing their riders are not on stock suspensions, but there were people running custom coil sprung boxxers or modified shock bodies in the past (check the NSR website) so..
Anyway, this is off topic.
For the record I never said they were slow, they just dont have a lot of damping, which is why the specialized bikes look so composed, as Ohlins products are capable of a factor more damping than Fox, and also because they let them run specilized internals, and the demands of Loic Bruni is a lot more than any normal joe.
Last time it came up, admittadly a few years ago, the 2 big vendors do not allow custom internals beyond what is available to OEM brands (i.e Rockshox offer a range of tunes to companies to match their frames, so too fox), the most they would tolerate was heavier weight oil in the dampers to get more damping out of them.
The teams actually have to use pre production samples of suspension a lot, to evaluate servicability, and reliability from their proffesional mechanics to see if they need to tweak anything for production lots, the serial numbers on there parts tell you this.
Again, im not having a go at any of the brands, just noting why the Ohlins products are different.
Its funny you mention that, as that custom kit Nigel (NSR) made was the one I was specifically refering to, and the team got told they are not allowed to do that, and were forced to change.
But yes, this will be my last post on this subject.
Again, go have some beers with mechanics, youll learn a lot.
Brandon Semenuk with a tiny axs reverb, on a downhill bike of all places?
I'm pretty sure he had a short cage axs setup years ago in some edit. Not long after axs came out. It probably doesn't mean a dh axs is incoming.