MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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7/14/2023 3:50am
Pretty big departure from the catalog frame.  The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well. maybe a...

Pretty big departure from the catalog frame.  The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well.

maybe a certain former vital staff member can spill some beans.

Without modeling it I can tell you it is almost certainly a higher starting leverage rate with a straighter progression (the current model is more of...

Without modeling it I can tell you it is almost certainly a higher starting leverage rate with a straighter progression (the current model is more of a linear-progressive-linear curve with a taper at the start and end), as well as higher anti-rise, presumably for more stable braking. Anti-squat might be at a similar level at sag, but will likely decrease at a lower rate compared to the current model since the instant center will move much less.

Which means what exactly? What can we expect from this new frame? It will pedal better, it will track the ground better, will it still be active during braking? Smile

TimBud
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7/14/2023 4:02am

Yes

7/14/2023 4:12am

IMG 5051 0

From Vitus’ instagram account - some details about the proto! Smile  

7
7/14/2023 8:32am

I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been running for however long now. Looks kind of similar from a distance but is definitely different, almost like a Range and a Commencal blend. I wasn't able to snap any but I am sure some pictures will get out there soon. 

5
ERGue
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7/14/2023 8:49am
TEAMROBOT wrote:
From Steber's tweet, it also sounds like weldable 3D printed aluminum wasn't an option until now. Which would support your point that CNC then 3D printing...

From Steber's tweet, it also sounds like weldable 3D printed aluminum wasn't an option until now. Which would support your point that CNC then 3D printing was the only option. I think it's been awesome getting to see this product development process play out in real time out in the open. Lots of popcorn.

Yea agreed such a great project. Hire the two best US DH racers, and give it your best shot at giving them the fastest gravity machine possible all while sharing the process with the fanboys and haters. Took some guts. 

4
THIRTYone
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Camas, WA US
7/14/2023 10:20am
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been...

I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been running for however long now. Looks kind of similar from a distance but is definitely different, almost like a Range and a Commencal blend. I wasn't able to snap any but I am sure some pictures will get out there soon. 

From their own insta vid. Reminds me of a nukeproof if it went high pivot, and stuffed the linkage in the inside of the frame? 313DBC3A-9F37-418F-922F-6CD5A3FEC446.png?VersionId=jSk1vaEi

 5FD736EA-8F38-4753-AD15-9200AAF43141

 

5
grambo
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CA
7/14/2023 10:25am
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been...

I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been running for however long now. Looks kind of similar from a distance but is definitely different, almost like a Range and a Commencal blend. I wasn't able to snap any but I am sure some pictures will get out there soon. 

I saw Kirk and the Norco crew testing this at Cypress on the DH tracks a few weeks/month-ish ago. Didn't get a close look but definitely not the Range w/ custom link. Curious to see more.

4
WheelNut
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7/14/2023 11:35am

Norco DH bike was revealed on their homepage this morning. Full set of studio photos there.

1
7/14/2023 11:58am
WheelNut wrote:

Norco DH bike was revealed on their homepage this morning. Full set of studio photos there.

Glad I saw this right before I was about to pixel-peep the video from the factory team.

1
TimBud
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7/14/2023 12:58pm

More fire to fuel the hate for Intense

 

 

2
7/14/2023 1:05pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2023 2:08pm

Okay, based on a pretty close approximation (distortion in the photos makes it a real pain to get accurately) here's what I can tell:

- Very progressive leverage rate; more similar to the Aurum HSP than the Range, so the rate of progression increases through the whole travel, but more progressive than Aurum before the sag point (people tended to sag very deep into the Aurum to make the most of the extremely progressive end-stroke because of the high-leverage, linear beginning of the stroke, so this might help a little but it is still probably somewhere between 35-40% progressive). **edited, probably closer to 25-30%, which is more reasonable for sure** It's definitely more suited to a coil shock.

- Low anti-squat (at whatever the sag range is, you're getting anti-squat range of <50% to <-100%) because of the very large idler concentric to the upper pivot. This also gives completely negative pedal kick-back in all gears, but this might make it a pain in the ass to pump (despite the progressive mid-stroke).

- Anti-rise follows the general shape of the leverage rate, with an increasingly steep decline from ~130% to ~10% through the travel, and somewhere around 100% at sag. 

Screenshot 2023-07-14 125317

 

8
synBike
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North Vancouver, BC CA
7/14/2023 1:27pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2023 2:07pm

I think you can basically make no assumptions about what the kinematics look like. Similar to most 6 bar bike there is a lot of flexibility and sensitivity to the arrangement.

I would guess they want more control over packaging compared to a Range layout (where you are heavily constrained by the linkarm concentric to the BB ). The trade off is more links but it gives you a huge amount of control over leverage with only small changes to the links. Pretty nice for a factory team doing lots of development work. 

Looks like a nice large 22 tooth idler as well which is always an improvement over the tiny idlers that are used so much on HP Horst link bikes. Here is a ballpark just to show the links overlayed; I am sure the team is bumping leverage or dropping progression a bit to get a little more travel. 

LeverageLinkage

5
matmattmatthew
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7/14/2023 1:42pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2023 1:42pm

When I see bikes like that (and the new Pivot, Demo, intense etc.) it makes me appreciate what Neko is doing with Frameworks even more.  

11
7/14/2023 1:51pm
synBike wrote:
I think you can basically make no assumptions about what the kinematics look like. Similar to most 6 bar bike there is a lot of flexibility...

I think you can basically make no assumptions about what the kinematics look like. Similar to most 6 bar bike there is a lot of flexibility and sensitivity to the arrangement.

I would guess they want more control over packaging compared to a Range layout (where you are heavily constrained by the linkarm concentric to the BB ). The trade off is more links but it gives you a huge amount of control over leverage with only small changes to the links. Pretty nice for a factory team doing lots of development work. 

Looks like a nice large 22 tooth idler as well which is always an improvement over the tiny idlers that are used so much on HP Horst link bikes. Here is a ballpark just to show the links overlayed; I am sure the team is bumping leverage or dropping progression a bit to get a little more travel. 

LeverageLinkage

What program is this? I like that you can see the photo while editing the linkage, unlike Linkage X3

2
7/14/2023 2:01pm

What program is this? I like that you can see the photo while editing the linkage, unlike Linkage X3

It's called syn (syn.bike), made (presumably) by @synDev! Not sure what you mean about being unable to see the photo in Linkage, though:

Screenshot 2023-07-14 135849

 

1
Primoz
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7/14/2023 2:46pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2023 2:48pm

Those bearings in the shock links are gonna yearn for better days...

It'd be interesting to measure the effective spring rate at the rear axle with a design like this. I wonder if it would be a noticeable difference due to added friction (high link forces, oblique angles, etc.). Sure, ball bearings have fairly low friction values, but a combination of high forces and high leverage ratios might make it noticeable.

3
big b
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7/14/2023 3:04pm

Rock Shox new product launch Thursday, July 20th at 10am EST.

9
brash
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7/14/2023 3:15pm

it is my educated opinion, after looking at the photos, overlaying in linkage, assessing & comparing the kinematics with my extensive catalogue of images of Sam Hill, numerous CAD reverse engineering and plugging the outputs into my google supercomputer I have come to the conclusion that BIKE LOOKS FUCKIN SICK!

20
7/14/2023 3:29pm

What program is this? I like that you can see the photo while editing the linkage, unlike Linkage X3

It's called syn (syn.bike), made (presumably) by @synDev! Not sure what you mean about being unable to see the photo in Linkage, though:  

It's called syn (syn.bike), made (presumably) by @synDev! Not sure what you mean about being unable to see the photo in Linkage, though:

Screenshot 2023-07-14 135849

 

Oops, guess I haven't found that feature yet. Syn is pretty cool though!

7/14/2023 4:54pm

When I see bikes like that (and the new Pivot, Demo, intense etc.) it makes me appreciate what Neko is doing with Frameworks even more.  

100%. Nothing will ever convince me to buy anything other than std linkage SP or DW variant etc 

1
jamesma
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Easthampton, MA US
7/14/2023 6:41pm
TimBud wrote:

More fire to fuel the hate for Intense

 

 

Hate?

5
sspomer
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Fantasy
7/14/2023 6:59pm

working on a g-out project from national champs (full gallery up later), but these two photos caught my eye w/ the chain slacked out between the idler and the front chainring. is that common? i don't feel like i've noticed that before. it's such a short gap to see significant slack like that. i guess i shouldn't be surprised considering the abuse DH bikes get put through.

cdaleyeti 0

7
7/14/2023 9:16pm
sspomer wrote:
working on a g-out project from national champs (full gallery up later), but these two photos caught my eye w/ the chain slacked out between the...

working on a g-out project from national champs (full gallery up later), but these two photos caught my eye w/ the chain slacked out between the idler and the front chainring. is that common? i don't feel like i've noticed that before. it's such a short gap to see significant slack like that. i guess i shouldn't be surprised considering the abuse DH bikes get put through.

cdaleyeti 0

Most idler-equipped bikes have either negative or next to zero upper chain growth (it depends on the idler placement/configuration but most bikes on the market follow the same trend), so it isn't under tension in a compression absent other factors. We obviously know chain slap still happens on 'normal' bikes that do have upper chain growth, so I'd imagine that's amplified without any.

2
Onawalk
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7/15/2023 7:52am

When I see bikes like that (and the new Pivot, Demo, intense etc.) it makes me appreciate what Neko is doing with Frameworks even more.  

100%. Nothing will ever convince me to buy anything other than std linkage SP or DW variant etc 

Those are very different suspension design philosophies, 

why is that?

7/15/2023 4:05pm
sspomer wrote:
working on a g-out project from national champs (full gallery up later), but these two photos caught my eye w/ the chain slacked out between the...

working on a g-out project from national champs (full gallery up later), but these two photos caught my eye w/ the chain slacked out between the idler and the front chainring. is that common? i don't feel like i've noticed that before. it's such a short gap to see significant slack like that. i guess i shouldn't be surprised considering the abuse DH bikes get put through.

cdaleyeti 0

I think its pretty common, and why tooth profile and some kind of small guide is crucial for them. I'm not sure how many people are aware of it though, when you consider how many HP bikes come out without a good enough idler design and they have to modify it later. 

 

The old Corsair bikes were shockers - they took several iterations to dial in their idlers, they even had a dual chainring set up which was a disaster - the chain would jump out of the sprocket and jam inside the tunnel which was terrifying if you went to pedal out of a corner and it had just locked up!

6
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