MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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metadave
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metadave 1/27/2022 6:58pm
1/27/2022 6:58pm
To save ya'll some time


19
krabo83
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krabo83 1/28/2022 12:12am
1/28/2022 12:12am
metadave wrote:
To save ya'll some time [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/01/27/11936/s1200_Mondraker.jpg[/img]
To save ya'll some time


any advantages to an idler if you don‘t use a HP?
melonhead1145 1/28/2022 12:36am
1/28/2022 12:36am
metadave wrote:
To save ya'll some time [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/01/27/11936/s1200_Mondraker.jpg[/img]
To save ya'll some time


krabo83 wrote:
any advantages to an idler if you don‘t use a HP?
reduced kickback, less chain growth so the drivetrain has little effect on the suspension
3
Primoz
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Primoz 1/28/2022 3:14am
1/28/2022 3:14am
And less antisquat.
Maxipedia
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Maxipedia 1/28/2022 4:17am
1/28/2022 4:17am
iceman2058 wrote:
Another chapter in the somewhat strange Ellsworth saga...: [b]San Diego, CA – January 24, 2022[/b] – Ellsworth Cycling, LLC (dba “Ellsworth Bikes”) a premium manufacturer of...
Another chapter in the somewhat strange Ellsworth saga...:

San Diego, CA – January 24, 2022 – Ellsworth Cycling, LLC (dba “Ellsworth Bikes”) a premium manufacturer of legendary mountain bikes for over 30 years, announced today that it has successfully completed a partnership agreement with Tony Ellsworth, bringing the Founder back as equal partner in the new company.
The agreement, signed by Ellsworth CEO, Rudi Pienaar and Tony Ellsworth, is another step forward in building a bright and sustainable future for Ellsworth Bikes. The agreement appoints Tony as Chief Designer Officer of Ellsworth and is intended to capitalize on Tony’s impressive track-record of innovation and design with the company, including many which have been internationally patented and licensed to other brands over the years. The Ellsworth brand will continue to focus on the design and manufacture of top-tier mountain bikes, with an added focus on bringing selected manufacturing back to the USA for future models.

“I am delighted to announce the agreement and to have Tony on board,” says Pienaar. “Ellsworth’s history of innovation is important to us, and having the founder of the company back in the design seat just feels right. Tony and I share a love of cycling, design and the Ellsworth brand. Most importantly, we agree on the manner in which Ellsworth should be run and operated for a sustainable business partnership, something which is key to the success of the company.”

Ellsworth – who is also currently employing his legendary talents to his new e-mobility brand The Ride Bikes – is thrilled to be back with his legacy brand, and he shares Pienaar’s sense of symbiosis with all involved. “I have had a heart full of consternation for what happened to the brand over the last seven years of failed merger and acquisition activities,” Ellsworth says. “I’ve spent unquantifiable brain cycles on where I’d channel my love for MTB’s, which is what drives my design energies."
Does anybody even ride Ellsworth bikes? Honestly.
7
Primoz
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Primoz 1/28/2022 8:04am
1/28/2022 8:04am
I'm listening to the Silca 3D printing podcast. A interesting tidbit, they said a kilogram of Ti powder costs 500 USD. Just the raw material. So each Atherton frame has ~500 USD in raw materials just in the lugs, let alone the manufacturing and finishing costs of the parts, the carbon tubes, the glue, then you need to earn something from the frame over what it cost you to produce to have it developed, marketed and so on...

How they are managing it is beyond me.
7
Sir HC
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Sir HC 1/28/2022 1:56pm
1/28/2022 1:56pm
One-up two forty ?
6
Primoz
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Primoz 1/28/2022 2:23pm
1/28/2022 2:23pm
My first thought was forty too.

Re Athertons:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZR-xhWM9Od/

"Their steady hands and meticulous eye for detail spend 16 hours fettling the lugs for each frame to achieve the perfect finish."

O_O
If I understand correctly, that's just dealing with the lugs, let alone gluing and then final assembling the frame.

Google says UK minimum wage is ~9 GBP per hour. Which is 11 EUR. That's a cost of AT LEAST 175 € to finish off the lugs alone, likely a lot more given the type of work.

I know I'm a broken record, but, again, HOW do they manage to make a frame for 3500 GBP? It's still expensive and I don't really see the manufacturing process as a huge benefit (given the costs, anything but), so at the end of the day you don't gain much from the added expense, but nevertheless, how?
6
grambo
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grambo 1/29/2022 12:20am
1/29/2022 12:20am
Primoz wrote:
My first thought was forty too. Re Athertons: https://www.instagram.com/p/CZR-xhWM9Od/ "Their steady hands and meticulous eye for detail spend 16 hours fettling the lugs for each frame...
My first thought was forty too.

Re Athertons:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZR-xhWM9Od/

"Their steady hands and meticulous eye for detail spend 16 hours fettling the lugs for each frame to achieve the perfect finish."

O_O
If I understand correctly, that's just dealing with the lugs, let alone gluing and then final assembling the frame.

Google says UK minimum wage is ~9 GBP per hour. Which is 11 EUR. That's a cost of AT LEAST 175 € to finish off the lugs alone, likely a lot more given the type of work.

I know I'm a broken record, but, again, HOW do they manage to make a frame for 3500 GBP? It's still expensive and I don't really see the manufacturing process as a huge benefit (given the costs, anything but), so at the end of the day you don't gain much from the added expense, but nevertheless, how?
Have pondered this myself. The only thing I come back to is that they brought on a Dragon's Den/VC type Piers Linney. Don't know anything about him but any guy like that is going to make sure there's margin... it's not like bike sales can scale infinitely like tech stuff where you can pile up insane losses until it takes off.
Primoz
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Primoz 1/29/2022 1:00am
1/29/2022 1:00am
Well with a standard production procedure you could say that could be the end game, just spend until you're large enough it makes financial sense (when the piece price is low enough due to the quantities). In this case, the piece price is more or less set in stone, unless the 3D printing process is swapped out for something else (casting?).
Sonofbovril2 1/29/2022 1:20am
1/29/2022 1:20am
Or perhaps create hype and demand with the current design and then make a cheaper more mass production version, same geometry and design but non 3D printed and keep the current version as the top of the line bells and whistles model
iRider
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iRider 1/29/2022 2:01am
1/29/2022 2:01am
Sonofbovril2 wrote:
Or perhaps create hype and demand with the current design and then make a cheaper more mass production version, same geometry and design but non 3D...
Or perhaps create hype and demand with the current design and then make a cheaper more mass production version, same geometry and design but non 3D printed and keep the current version as the top of the line bells and whistles model
Or the other way around, use this as a teaser to get their bikes out and ramp up the prices later? Bastion in Australia makes road bikes pretty much the same way, but they are fully focused on exclusivity and their prices reflect this.

Alternatively, maybe this is just a way to offset the costs of making full custom race bikes for the team and avoid running into issues with UCI prototype regulations?
1
Sonofbovril2 1/29/2022 2:10am
1/29/2022 2:10am
When I used to work in the industry 10+ years ago, I remember the margins on the more expensive bikes were significantly better, not sure if that is still the case? Maybe that is the plan, keep the bikes high end and $$$ and make bigger margins off fewer sales
Noeserd
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Noeserd 1/29/2022 7:43am
1/29/2022 7:43am
Maybe atertons having normal margins but big names has extreme margins with their frames?
1
Brian_Peterson
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Brian_Peterson 1/29/2022 9:08am
1/29/2022 9:08am
Sonofbovril2 wrote:
When I used to work in the industry 10+ years ago, I remember the margins on the more expensive bikes were significantly better, not sure if...
When I used to work in the industry 10+ years ago, I remember the margins on the more expensive bikes were significantly better, not sure if that is still the case? Maybe that is the plan, keep the bikes high end and $$$ and make bigger margins off fewer sales
Usually, the cheaper bikes have a better margin, while the more expensive bike may put more cash in the drawer, the shop keeps less of it. That's why I've always said it's ultimately better to sell 10 $600 bikes than 1 $6000 bike.. The shop ends up with more money that way..

They may be doing a bit of a loss-lead right now.. Srll them cheaper to get some out there, then as demand ramps up, the price goes up...
3
matmattmatthew
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matmattmatthew 1/29/2022 10:12am
1/29/2022 10:12am
In reference to the cost of the Atherton frames... I don't get the same sticker shock as some people might. If you look into getting a custom frame made from a small frame builder in the US you're typically well north of 3k for just a steel roadbike/gravel/hardtail frame. I'm looking to get a custom Ti Single Speed hardtail made this year and it will probably be over 4,000
2
bulletbass man 1/29/2022 1:57pm
1/29/2022 1:57pm
matmattmatthew wrote:
In reference to the cost of the Atherton frames... I don't get the same sticker shock as some people might. If you look into getting a...
In reference to the cost of the Atherton frames... I don't get the same sticker shock as some people might. If you look into getting a custom frame made from a small frame builder in the US you're typically well north of 3k for just a steel roadbike/gravel/hardtail frame. I'm looking to get a custom Ti Single Speed hardtail made this year and it will probably be over 4,000
People are shocked they plan to make the frame for that price
Primoz
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Primoz 1/29/2022 1:59pm
1/29/2022 1:59pm
I was about to say it's expensive for a bike frame, 'period', but not considering how it's made, but having a look at frame only prices... Holly bananas, this shit is expensive!!

So yeah, it's 3900 € for a frame with a shock, 4600-ish for a custom geometry option. The base price is in line with Specializeds, Treks and the like. I still live in the world of 2500 € carbon frames... :/

So yeah, compared to the big brands, how they manage to do it in this case is even more of a mystery, unless the big boys have 50+ % margins.
pinkrobe
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pinkrobe 1/30/2022 7:30am
1/30/2022 7:30am
Primoz wrote:
I was about to say it's expensive for a bike frame, 'period', but not considering how it's made, but having a look at frame only prices...
I was about to say it's expensive for a bike frame, 'period', but not considering how it's made, but having a look at frame only prices... Holly bananas, this shit is expensive!!

So yeah, it's 3900 € for a frame with a shock, 4600-ish for a custom geometry option. The base price is in line with Specializeds, Treks and the like. I still live in the world of 2500 € carbon frames... :/

So yeah, compared to the big brands, how they manage to do it in this case is even more of a mystery, unless the big boys have 50+ % margins.
As an aside, the dealer margin for most frames is about the same as for high-end bikes, at least here in Canada. I have no idea what the manufacturer's margin is.
1
ORTOGONAL555 1/30/2022 1:03pm
1/30/2022 1:03pm Edited Date/Time 2/1/2022 4:29am
New Saracen dh bike or nah? Veronika was riding last year frame up until now.

1
dolface
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dolface 1/30/2022 1:42pm
1/30/2022 1:42pm
Blacked out cranks in Angel's story, new Saints?


Sol.Cob
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Sol.Cob 1/30/2022 2:04pm
1/30/2022 2:04pm
dolface wrote:
Blacked out cranks in Angel's story, new Saints? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/01/30/11944/s1200_Screen_Shot_2022_01_30_at_1.41.01_PM.jpg[/img]
Blacked out cranks in Angel's story, new Saints?


look like rotor cranks to me
10
bulletbass man 1/30/2022 3:45pm
1/30/2022 3:45pm
Perhaps a new rotor power meter or perhaps just using one for testing (not sure who 100 percent uses for cranks) so it is blacked out.
1
Brevard_Bikewrench 1/30/2022 5:21pm
1/30/2022 5:21pm
dolface wrote:
Blacked out cranks in Angel's story, new Saints? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/01/30/11944/s1200_Screen_Shot_2022_01_30_at_1.41.01_PM.jpg[/img]
Blacked out cranks in Angel's story, new Saints?


That is his worlds frame from last year. Commencal '21 used rotor cranks and chainrings on their bikes. You can tell by the extra long rubber guards and the shape of the chainring spider.
3
dolface
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dolface 1/30/2022 5:36pm
1/30/2022 5:36pm
bulletbass man wrote:
Perhaps a new rotor power meter or perhaps just using one for testing (not sure who 100 percent uses for cranks) so it is blacked out.
Looks like it's E13 for drivetrain: https://www.instagram.com/commencal_100/?hl=en
1
Nzdinosaur 1/30/2022 7:09pm
1/30/2022 7:09pm
Primoz wrote:
My first thought was forty too. Re Athertons: https://www.instagram.com/p/CZR-xhWM9Od/ "Their steady hands and meticulous eye for detail spend 16 hours fettling the lugs for each frame...
My first thought was forty too.

Re Athertons:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZR-xhWM9Od/

"Their steady hands and meticulous eye for detail spend 16 hours fettling the lugs for each frame to achieve the perfect finish."

O_O
If I understand correctly, that's just dealing with the lugs, let alone gluing and then final assembling the frame.

Google says UK minimum wage is ~9 GBP per hour. Which is 11 EUR. That's a cost of AT LEAST 175 € to finish off the lugs alone, likely a lot more given the type of work.

I know I'm a broken record, but, again, HOW do they manage to make a frame for 3500 GBP? It's still expensive and I don't really see the manufacturing process as a huge benefit (given the costs, anything but), so at the end of the day you don't gain much from the added expense, but nevertheless, how?
grambo wrote:
Have pondered this myself. The only thing I come back to is that they brought on a Dragon's Den/VC type Piers Linney. Don't know anything about...
Have pondered this myself. The only thing I come back to is that they brought on a Dragon's Den/VC type Piers Linney. Don't know anything about him but any guy like that is going to make sure there's margin... it's not like bike sales can scale infinitely like tech stuff where you can pile up insane losses until it takes off.
I'm thinking that the volume of stupidly expensive bikes that cant stay on the shelves and have really long wait times.
It's not the most stupid plan. Mtb has gone more mainstream, there's more money from consumers, so a high end niche frame with great marketing and performance will probably sell quicker than it can be made.
Like the kenevo sl has next free stock in 2024. That's a 16-24k bike depending on spec. SC say in a podcast that next free stock is end of 2022.
Yeti are almost selling used for the price of a new one.
1
metadave
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metadave 1/30/2022 8:30pm
1/30/2022 8:30pm
Primoz wrote:
My first thought was forty too. Re Athertons: https://www.instagram.com/p/CZR-xhWM9Od/ "Their steady hands and meticulous eye for detail spend 16 hours fettling the lugs for each frame...
My first thought was forty too.

Re Athertons:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZR-xhWM9Od/

"Their steady hands and meticulous eye for detail spend 16 hours fettling the lugs for each frame to achieve the perfect finish."

O_O
If I understand correctly, that's just dealing with the lugs, let alone gluing and then final assembling the frame.

Google says UK minimum wage is ~9 GBP per hour. Which is 11 EUR. That's a cost of AT LEAST 175 € to finish off the lugs alone, likely a lot more given the type of work.

I know I'm a broken record, but, again, HOW do they manage to make a frame for 3500 GBP? It's still expensive and I don't really see the manufacturing process as a huge benefit (given the costs, anything but), so at the end of the day you don't gain much from the added expense, but nevertheless, how?
grambo wrote:
Have pondered this myself. The only thing I come back to is that they brought on a Dragon's Den/VC type Piers Linney. Don't know anything about...
Have pondered this myself. The only thing I come back to is that they brought on a Dragon's Den/VC type Piers Linney. Don't know anything about him but any guy like that is going to make sure there's margin... it's not like bike sales can scale infinitely like tech stuff where you can pile up insane losses until it takes off.
Nzdinosaur wrote:
I'm thinking that the volume of stupidly expensive bikes that cant stay on the shelves and have really long wait times. It's not the most stupid...
I'm thinking that the volume of stupidly expensive bikes that cant stay on the shelves and have really long wait times.
It's not the most stupid plan. Mtb has gone more mainstream, there's more money from consumers, so a high end niche frame with great marketing and performance will probably sell quicker than it can be made.
Like the kenevo sl has next free stock in 2024. That's a 16-24k bike depending on spec. SC say in a podcast that next free stock is end of 2022.
Yeti are almost selling used for the price of a new one.
I can tell you Kenevo SL's are selling without question and mid level trail bikes are selling in January mid week like 800$ hardtails in may. We had a our entire stock of specialized status's vanish in two days. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm getting the 2023 bike I ordered in September. No one's even blinking when I tell them sending their suspension back to fox will be 400$, they just say yes and don't even ask why they need to do it. It's anarchy.
10
C-LION
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C-LION 1/31/2022 1:18pm
1/31/2022 1:18pm Edited Date/Time 1/31/2022 1:19pm
Dorval AM Commencal is also testing the new version of the Supreme DH bike as it seems 👀



1
northeast_guy 1/31/2022 2:08pm
1/31/2022 2:08pm


Here is what seems to be an update on Conti's new tire(s) aimed at the DH crowd. The treads have been known (link here) but this "Kryptotal" badge is a point of interest. a quick search brings up a trademark application dated November 2020, the description says "Tyres; Inner tubes for pneumatic tyres" which I think is a bit odd. Anyone know more about this?

Link for the trademark app
2
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