MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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kcy4130
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kcy4130 9/29/2021 12:47pm
9/29/2021 12:47pm
Primoz wrote:
There were rumblings top brands only sell hundreds (as in less than 1000) DH bikes a year. So it's pretty obvious why the big ones went...
There were rumblings top brands only sell hundreds (as in less than 1000) DH bikes a year. So it's pretty obvious why the big ones went aluminium only in a carbon first MTB world.
Only hundreds total or for one size? Under a 1000 for all frame sizes of a brands dh bike seems very low.
Primoz
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Primoz 9/29/2021 1:14pm
9/29/2021 1:14pm Edited Date/Time 9/29/2021 1:15pm
Nothing was specified. But is it impossible for a larger brand that is not the default DH bike brand to sell just a few hundred frames in a year? How many Gamblers are floating around in the wild? Or Operators?
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Mtbforlife4
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Mtbforlife4 9/29/2021 1:22pm
9/29/2021 1:22pm
Noeserd wrote:
I didn't knew kenevo sl used 230x65, that would be a good edition to enduro
Edthorne wrote:
Out of interest, what was the issue with the trunnion mount on the Enduro? I've never had any issues with trunnion mounts on other bikes, so...
Out of interest, what was the issue with the trunnion mount on the Enduro? I've never had any issues with trunnion mounts on other bikes, so is there something specific to the mounting on the Enduro that doesn't jive with them?
TayRob wrote:
Nothing specific to the Enduro, but trunion is just a bad idea as a whole. You don't want the shock to be fixed to the frame...
Nothing specific to the Enduro, but trunion is just a bad idea as a whole. You don't want the shock to be fixed to the frame. It needs to be able to have some give and flex to reduce wear a properly take side loads without binding and excessive wear. Plus there's the fact you can also strip out a usually non replaceable piece of your shock instead of a sub $10 bolt or something.
Can confirm stripping out a trunnion shock SUCKS. Bolt backed out while riding my Enduro and completely knackered the threads, luckily helicoils exist and I was able to save it.
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TheShortestCharles 9/29/2021 1:54pm
9/29/2021 1:54pm
Primoz wrote:
You are forgetting that with trunnion mount you have two bearings that are spaced apart mounted into a relatively thick housing. I kind of like what...
You are forgetting that with trunnion mount you have two bearings that are spaced apart mounted into a relatively thick housing.

I kind of like what Pole is doing shock mounting wise. Or the old Range VLT on the bottom shock mount.
The updated Sight VLT and Range VLT also have a rotated shock mount, but I'm not sure how it affects stiffness (Norco said they rotated it to "optimize clearance for piggyback shocks and water bottles").

Erwan_Ghesquiere 9/30/2021 12:27am
9/30/2021 12:27am
Mtbforlife4 wrote:
Can confirm stripping out a trunnion shock SUCKS. Bolt backed out while riding my Enduro and completely knackered the threads, luckily helicoils exist and I was...
Can confirm stripping out a trunnion shock SUCKS. Bolt backed out while riding my Enduro and completely knackered the threads, luckily helicoils exist and I was able to save it.
Yes this happened to me several times but I usually catch it before it becomes too bad, usually you get a knocking one it starts backing-off. Pretty annoying to say the least.

As for sideways mounts, sure it can help but it would still be a rather complex solution. I really don't get why there isn't more shock companies using spherical bearing instead of bushing. This is common practice in MX and ensure full isolation from sideloads for better sensitivity and durability too. Considering that trunion bearing rarely last more than half a season before being crunchy AF (reducing sensitivity and creating side loads), a spherical bearing wouldn't be any worse in terms of maintenance.
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Primoz
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Primoz 9/30/2021 12:35am
9/30/2021 12:35am
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been made that spherical bearings don't work for mountain bikes.
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Erwan_Ghesquiere 9/30/2021 4:47am
9/30/2021 4:47am
Primoz wrote:
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been...
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been made that spherical bearings don't work for mountain bikes.
I'd be interested to know. Considering for exemple that GT release both current Force and Fury with Trunion but that the new Force Carbon is back to normal bushing I'd say it doesn't make Trunion look good and seem to confirm the problems with side loading. Additionally premium companies like Push or EXT are offering (or planing to) sphearical bearings, and it seems strange that such companies would implement some solutions that don't work. Maybe big companies prefer not to admit the problem so they won't have to fix it ?
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Bob Chicken
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Bob Chicken 9/30/2021 5:14am
9/30/2021 5:14am
Primoz wrote:
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been...
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been made that spherical bearings don't work for mountain bikes.
If you go back to the Paul Aston bike check, he uses spherical bearings with his EXT shock, but he also states that it's only suitable or beneficial for certain setups.

Linky link
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baronKanon 9/30/2021 5:41am
9/30/2021 5:41am
Bob Chicken wrote:
If you go back to the Paul Aston bike check, he uses spherical bearings with his EXT shock, but he also states that it's only suitable...
If you go back to the Paul Aston bike check, he uses spherical bearings with his EXT shock, but he also states that it's only suitable or beneficial for certain setups.

Linky link
I have also discussed this with Joe at Starling regarding using spherical bearings on my Murmur. He says that it is depending on the load path on the bike, and that the load path on the single pivot Starlings does not give any sideloading of the shock. He is a mechanical engineer, my Masters is in Cybernetics. He wins the competence fight Smile
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Primoz
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Primoz 9/30/2021 6:57am
9/30/2021 6:57am
Primoz wrote:
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been...
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been made that spherical bearings don't work for mountain bikes.
Erwan_Ghesquiere wrote:
I'd be interested to know. Considering for exemple that GT release both current Force and Fury with Trunion but that the new Force Carbon is back...
I'd be interested to know. Considering for exemple that GT release both current Force and Fury with Trunion but that the new Force Carbon is back to normal bushing I'd say it doesn't make Trunion look good and seem to confirm the problems with side loading. Additionally premium companies like Push or EXT are offering (or planing to) sphearical bearings, and it seems strange that such companies would implement some solutions that don't work. Maybe big companies prefer not to admit the problem so they won't have to fix it ?
Which current Force, the old one?

Trunnion was designed and is offered to fit more shock travel in a tighter package. You can get a 65 mm shock in only 205 mm ETE and thus still fit it under the top tube, when you couldn't do that with the 230 mm ETE shock. Plus the trunnion shock requires the use of ball bearings, which are sometimes harder to implement with a standard shock (unless bearing mount, which is in practice used only on Rock Shox shocks and at that mostly on the lower, damper body eyelet). While the bushings are veeeeeery cheap to replace (I literally have like 15 left over from all the service kits for the shocks), bearings are nevertheless longer lasting from my (limited) experience.
Nico_Ofner 9/30/2021 6:59am
9/30/2021 6:59am
Primoz wrote:
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been...
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been made that spherical bearings don't work for mountain bikes.
They always work better than bushings, but the spherical bearings that fit in standard eyelets are too small too last a good amount of time, that's why. You would need to have larger ones just like Ext and Push use.
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mitch160
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mitch160 9/30/2021 7:26am
9/30/2021 7:26am
With Sea Otter happening pretty much next week anyone know if anything important going to be released or not?
TheShortestCharles 9/30/2021 9:15am
9/30/2021 9:15am
Primoz wrote:
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been...
Not sur who said it (might have been Jordi in the Q&A video?), but I do remember from the past few months a claim has been made that spherical bearings don't work for mountain bikes.
Nicolai offers a custom EXT Storia shock with spherical bearings on the Geometron G1, so it probably depends on the bike
mixmastamikal
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mixmastamikal 9/30/2021 11:18am
9/30/2021 11:18am
Bob Chicken wrote:
If you go back to the Paul Aston bike check, he uses spherical bearings with his EXT shock, but he also states that it's only suitable...
If you go back to the Paul Aston bike check, he uses spherical bearings with his EXT shock, but he also states that it's only suitable or beneficial for certain setups.

Linky link
baronKanon wrote:
I have also discussed this with Joe at Starling regarding using spherical bearings on my Murmur. He says that it is depending on the load path...
I have also discussed this with Joe at Starling regarding using spherical bearings on my Murmur. He says that it is depending on the load path on the bike, and that the load path on the single pivot Starlings does not give any sideloading of the shock. He is a mechanical engineer, my Masters is in Cybernetics. He wins the competence fight Smile
It is Ironic that he would say that considering you can get a special edition shock for the Murmur from EXT that has spherical bearings.
baronKanon 9/30/2021 11:25am
9/30/2021 11:25am
mixmastamikal wrote:
It is Ironic that he would say that considering you can get a special edition shock for the Murmur from EXT that has spherical bearings.
Does it have spherical bearings? I do not think it was possible. I haven't heard of it anyway.
Erwan_Ghesquiere 9/30/2021 12:04pm
9/30/2021 12:04pm
Primoz wrote:
Which current Force, the old one? Trunnion was designed and is offered to fit more shock travel in a tighter package. You can get a 65...
Which current Force, the old one?

Trunnion was designed and is offered to fit more shock travel in a tighter package. You can get a 65 mm shock in only 205 mm ETE and thus still fit it under the top tube, when you couldn't do that with the 230 mm ETE shock. Plus the trunnion shock requires the use of ball bearings, which are sometimes harder to implement with a standard shock (unless bearing mount, which is in practice used only on Rock Shox shocks and at that mostly on the lower, damper body eyelet). While the bushings are veeeeeery cheap to replace (I literally have like 15 left over from all the service kits for the shocks), bearings are nevertheless longer lasting from my (limited) experience.
Well current as in MY21 and previous. The new carbon+iddler is MY22 so next year model even tho it has been revealed and even started being delivered in places.

As for the use in current shocks it definitely would be too small a bearing but companies could anticipate in order to have a bigger eyelet to accommodate the bearing.
Javi_NoFer11 9/30/2021 12:17pm
9/30/2021 12:17pm
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole?
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Primoz
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Primoz 9/30/2021 12:21pm
9/30/2021 12:21pm
You mean on the top tube, in front of the seat? Which is the edge of a protection foil? Or am I missing something?
Noeserd
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Noeserd 9/30/2021 12:28pm
9/30/2021 12:28pm
Javi_NoFer11 wrote:
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/09/30/11476/s1200_p5pb21402039.jpg[/img]
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole?
RIP behind the yoke
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AndehM
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AndehM 9/30/2021 12:32pm
9/30/2021 12:32pm
Noeserd wrote:
RIP behind the yoke
Haha, OMG you're right!
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TimBud
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TimBud 9/30/2021 1:01pm
9/30/2021 1:01pm
Since when were prototypes not allowed to have any issues?
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meow
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meow 9/30/2021 1:35pm
9/30/2021 1:35pm
baronKanon wrote:
I have also discussed this with Joe at Starling regarding using spherical bearings on my Murmur. He says that it is depending on the load path...
I have also discussed this with Joe at Starling regarding using spherical bearings on my Murmur. He says that it is depending on the load path on the bike, and that the load path on the single pivot Starlings does not give any sideloading of the shock. He is a mechanical engineer, my Masters is in Cybernetics. He wins the competence fight Smile
this might be true in an idealized state with no flex or deflection in the frame or pivots and the frame was built entirely square, but as soon as anything doesn't line up perfectly you get off axis loading.
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Ambushell
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Ambushell 9/30/2021 11:00pm
9/30/2021 11:00pm
Alloy stumpy Evo is happening, looks like a carryover of the carbon models geometry and features. So yes, it has a Swat box. Comp and Elite builds as well as a frame only.

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nucleardaisy 10/1/2021 12:30am
10/1/2021 12:30am
Javi_NoFer11 wrote:
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/09/30/11476/s1200_p5pb21402039.jpg[/img]
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole?
Looks like a piece of grass to me
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SB14
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SB14 10/1/2021 6:47am
10/1/2021 6:47am
Javi_NoFer11 wrote:
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/09/30/11476/s1200_p5pb21402039.jpg[/img]
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole?
must be a shaddow from the lower part of the yoke.

This is from the bike Joe Nation is riding at Tweed now. Now way is he there on a prototype frame with a crack. He has more than one bike, no? so he would swap it.
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baronKanon 10/1/2021 6:57am
10/1/2021 6:57am
SB14 wrote:
must be a shaddow from the lower part of the yoke. This is from the bike Joe Nation is riding at Tweed now. Now way is...
must be a shaddow from the lower part of the yoke.

This is from the bike Joe Nation is riding at Tweed now. Now way is he there on a prototype frame with a crack. He has more than one bike, no? so he would swap it.
My impression is that the Pole factory riders only have one bike for racing and training. Joe is quite on the low key on his setup, still on the same Stamina as on last season
jonkranked
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jonkranked 10/1/2021 7:41am
10/1/2021 7:41am Edited Date/Time 10/1/2021 7:44am
Javi_NoFer11 wrote:
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/09/30/11476/s1200_p5pb21402039.jpg[/img]
Can you spot the crack on the prototype Pole?
nucleardaisy wrote:
Looks like a piece of grass to me
grass doesn't make the light on the surrounding metal reflect like that. (had to zoom in and look closely at the source image on PCool .


i browsed some other pics in that gallery, and where there is grass on the bike, it doesn't do that.
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tombola33 10/1/2021 8:09am
10/1/2021 8:09am
Ambushell wrote:
Alloy stumpy Evo is happening, looks like a carryover of the carbon models geometry and features. So yes, it has a Swat box. Comp and Elite...
Alloy stumpy Evo is happening, looks like a carryover of the carbon models geometry and features. So yes, it has a Swat box. Comp and Elite builds as well as a frame only.

This is awesome! 100% in the market for the frame only.
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SB14
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SB14 10/1/2021 8:11am
10/1/2021 8:11am
Yes. After a zoom i can see the crack. Would he do the bikecheck photos if he knew?
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