The HUGE downside of EMTB's

MOTO13
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Edited Date/Time 11/1/2021 11:58am
The worst thing about EMTBs that nobody mentions is...riding with people who still ride regular bikes...the constant waiting for them to catch up. It really is a problem that needs to be addressed.
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Big Bird
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7/1/2021 1:49pm
Perhaps they should just do like Tesla and integrate video games into the bikes. Then you could waste time on the trails just like at home. Or you could go back and check on your "Friends."
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MOTO13
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7/1/2021 2:01pm
Don't play video games. But it is absolutely astonishing how much faster you can go than a regular dino-bike. At least in the mid west where we actually pedal up the hills and don't take train rides up or have shuttle services. If any of you people that read this have never tried an emtb, please don't ever try them. It will make the already long wait times even worse when more people dump the dino-bike for EMTB's.
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7/1/2021 2:02pm
MOTO13 wrote:
The worst thing about EMTBs that nobody mentions is...riding with people who still ride regular bikes...the constant waiting for them to catch up. It really is...
The worst thing about EMTBs that nobody mentions is...riding with people who still ride regular bikes...the constant waiting for them to catch up. It really is a problem that needs to be addressed.
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MOTO13
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7/2/2021 4:44am
How do I troll my own thread? This post is pretty tongue and cheek. I hope everyone takes it that way. But when I say you have to wait for people, I'm serious. These emtbs are incredible. Got me back on the trails after a pretty serious accident and I have more fun than I ever did on a regular mtb. Get out and ride. Don't forget to look over your shoulder occasionally. These bikes are fast.
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Eoin
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Fantasy
7/2/2021 6:07am
I know this is tongue in cheek, but this actually is a pretty big downside: I mostly ride alone now as i get so much more done. My usual riding partner doesn't have an ebike, I feel bad but riding with him basically means getting only 50% of descents done. For a few months I was riding with 2 guys with similar ebikes to mine (500Wh), we got insane loops done. Both of them upgraded to 630 and 700Wh batteries which actually brings back the strain, now I can't go as far or as long wihout carrying a second battery which i don't love doing.

The real biggest problem with ebikes is that you suddenly have a sweet $3k+ mtb in your garage that gets used 3 times a year for shuttle or park days...
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w4s
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7/2/2021 7:56am
Serious question for you guys, do you get used to weight of a 50lb + Ebike? that has been to main reason I haven't jumped on the ebike bandwagon, just seems like that weight would be a real pain on steep, technical trails.
adamdigby
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7/2/2021 10:05am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2021 7:27am
I have noticed the E-bike to be difficult on some steep uphill switchbacks with obstacles as the weight makes it tough to maneuver, but on the downhills I've had no issue. Sure it's heavy but you just initiate corners earlier to compensate for the extra stability. On really steep terrain you must be careful of the back coming around on you because once it does there's no pulling it back like a normal 35lb or less bike.
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Batts
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Fantasy
7/2/2021 10:18am
I just got an e-bike. Cannot imagine ever riding with someone not on an e-bike. I ride alone a lot but I still ride my regular bike 5-1 over the E, but if I plan to ride with someone then the regular bike is all I would consider. I honestly do not really notice the weight that much, like said, techy uphills that I find can be as much of struggle as my regular bike, still learning the motor and when it kicks in and knowing what gear to be in.
Actually, I lied, I really notice the weight when putting it on the bike rack, I need a spotter! damn bad shoulder!

I do find I push myself more on the regular bike now too. Once you experience the speed on flatter trails you want to try and go that fast on a regular bike.
7/2/2021 12:03pm
We have a serious eBike problem here in Jersey. There aren't any "official" trails - its all semi-unofficial shared use cliff paths and woods. The eBikers are creating new lines uphill and causing massive erosion. So much so that they are risking our access completely. Obviously not all eBikers are causing this, but the ones that are are doing it in a very publicly visible way. Unfortunately due to ridiculous politics, we can't get involved in trail maintenance so can't mitigate.

Are there any other places that are facing similar issues.
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MOTO13
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7/2/2021 3:20pm Edited Date/Time 7/2/2021 3:38pm
The weight for me is not even noticeable. It's a non issue basically. I raced mx so I personally like a bit more weight as I ride an emtb. The added few pounds makes it less sketchy on descents. It makes the suspension work a bit more underneath you. Not jumping all over the place. Fwiw...I have a Trek Rail 9.7. Carbon bike...Bosch g4 motor...29r. Full suspension Emtbs are the best thing to happen in this sport in 20 years. As far as emtbs causing erosion...that is a big crock of shit. Like ebikes just spin the back tire and bliw out trails??? Fucking laughable in it's stupidity. Sure, if you ride in mud it could happen...like it does on any bike. I spun more on a regular bike because I was pushing harder. Where I ride, you can't ride after rain or during muddy conditions. Most trails are closed. It's actually easier to not spin on an emtb because you can meter your pedaling and pick better lines.
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brash
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7/2/2021 3:51pm
w4s wrote:
Serious question for you guys, do you get used to weight of a 50lb + Ebike? that has been to main reason I haven't jumped on...
Serious question for you guys, do you get used to weight of a 50lb + Ebike? that has been to main reason I haven't jumped on the ebike bandwagon, just seems like that weight would be a real pain on steep, technical trails.
yeah you just get used to it. In fact in some instances the weight is a nice side effect, the suspension performance is astounding (sprung vs unsprung weight)

I'll admit something on here, I ride my ebike 95% of the time now, my meta only comes out for shuttle days.

E-bikes have renewed my love of riding, I would always find excuses not to ride, with the eeb I'm chomping at the bit for that hour ride on my lunch break or riding somewhere I've never been and exploring new places. I can now ride with my buddies who are all extremely fit, this in-turn has progressed my skills as I'm riding trails I would never have done due to the ridiculous climbs.

As for the OP's question, I just ride the same pace as everyone else, put it in Eco mode and it's definitely a workout still.

Eebs are also a lot more accepted here in Australia than the USA it seems. Especially where I ride where all the trails are illegal anyway so there is no moral high ground for anyone.

tldr; I love ebikes.... I'm a fan.
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JVP
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7/3/2021 9:32pm Edited Date/Time 7/3/2021 9:34pm
Come join me on a ride with 5k of climbing. Oh wait, you cant.

I'm not anti-ebike. I rode with an out of shape buddy who was on one this morning. But that's their biggest downside until batteries get a lot better.

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MOTO13
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7/4/2021 5:06am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2021 5:15am
On eco my bike can go for well over 70 miles. On emtb my bike has gone 50 miles+. I've done it. Where you're coasting or on a dh, you use no battrey obviously.Plus...here's the funny part...if the battery does wear out, the bike still works. Now do I do the 50 miles at once? No. I mainly do 3 or 4 5 mile loops. Then...call it a day. In the midwest it's all woods single track. I recharge on every 3rd ride or so. Every time I let someone take my bike for a loop, 100% of the time they have zero interest riding their reg bike ever again. It's a staggering difference in the way you can ride and the amount of fun.
JVP
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7/4/2021 11:11am
My buddy’s Kenevo was blinking red after 3200 ft of vert yesterday. He’s a big dude, but still. They’re getting there, but the range isn’t yet compelling. Once they can replace shutting, then game on!
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7/4/2021 1:48pm
Weight of the rider makes a huge difference on climbing vertical one can get in on the eeb. I can get 4500' without fail on my 500wh battery E8000 Commencal. From talking to others of similar fitness and weight as I am I could get 7000' pretty easily on a 700wh Specialized and probably just a touch under on a 630wh Bosch. 625wh Shimano ep8 maybe 6k but Shimano does not have the same efficiency.

Point is JVP if you are fit you can get lot's of climbing in.

Also count me in the camp for having way more fun on my eeb. I ride it 9 out 10 times easy. 2300 off-road miles per year on mine.
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brash
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7/4/2021 3:07pm
range and weight of the bikes are the final hurdles.

First company to come up with a full powered (ie current 90NM torque) 1000W hours and <20kg will sell a billion of them, I think it's a few years off though however.

I can get about 55km and 1100m of vert (3600ft in bald eagle units) Thats on eco, so I'm pretty sore after that much riding. I'd like more but it's not a huge issue. I have a second battery if I'm looping back to the car.
Skerby
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7/8/2021 7:04am
Just pull your friends!
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Gator
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7/13/2021 7:21am
MOTO13 wrote:
The worst thing about EMTBs that nobody mentions is...riding with people who still ride regular bikes...the constant waiting for them to catch up. It really is...
The worst thing about EMTBs that nobody mentions is...riding with people who still ride regular bikes...the constant waiting for them to catch up. It really is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Yeah man! I see more and more of them in the woods around here. I plan to get one when I'm old. Hope the price adjusts to a more comfortable level.

I was recently on a bike trip out west (Breckenridge) and the black line bus driver to Peak 8 stopped midway up the hill to ask who had the e-bike? A woman raised her hand and the driver put her out on the street right there stating they are too heavy for the bike rack, although the driver had helped load it up!

The weight thing is bullshit, she ( the bus driver) just had a hard on for e-bikes. There were 2 other bikes on board that were heavier than the e-bike,

Still working our way past ignorance.





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7/13/2021 7:27am
Worried about range?

Riding with non-ebikes?

Take it out of turbo mode...
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MOTO13
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7/13/2021 10:03am
MOTO13 wrote:
The worst thing about EMTBs that nobody mentions is...riding with people who still ride regular bikes...the constant waiting for them to catch up. It really is...
The worst thing about EMTBs that nobody mentions is...riding with people who still ride regular bikes...the constant waiting for them to catch up. It really is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Gator wrote:
Yeah man! I see more and more of them in the woods around here. I plan to get one when I'm old. Hope the price adjusts...
Yeah man! I see more and more of them in the woods around here. I plan to get one when I'm old. Hope the price adjusts to a more comfortable level.

I was recently on a bike trip out west (Breckenridge) and the black line bus driver to Peak 8 stopped midway up the hill to ask who had the e-bike? A woman raised her hand and the driver put her out on the street right there stating they are too heavy for the bike rack, although the driver had helped load it up!

The weight thing is bullshit, she ( the bus driver) just had a hard on for e-bikes. There were 2 other bikes on board that were heavier than the e-bike,

Still working our way past ignorance.





Working our way past ignorance...well said. The bus driver must have been a long time member here. Most have similar attitudes towards emtb's.
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Primoz
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7/13/2021 10:06am Edited Date/Time 7/13/2021 10:07am
MOTO13 wrote:
Don't play video games. But it is absolutely astonishing how much faster you can go than a regular dino-bike. At least in the mid west where...
Don't play video games. But it is absolutely astonishing how much faster you can go than a regular dino-bike. At least in the mid west where we actually pedal up the hills and don't take train rides up or have shuttle services. If any of you people that read this have never tried an emtb, please don't ever try them. It will make the already long wait times even worse when more people dump the dino-bike for EMTB's.
Some of us here in the alps do not use trains (or cable lifts) or shuttle services (for day to day riding), i.e. we pedal, have tried e-MTBs and see no reason at all to switch to them.

The power is a quickly wearing off gimmick (it was meh after about 15 minutes of turbo mode), they are heavier, much more expensive, require more expensive maintenance and they ride down hill much worse than proper bikes do.

If I'll ever want a motorcycle, I'll buy a proper motorcycle.

As for e-bikes, given my limited testing, Specialized SL series is the way to go - low power and light weight. That at least rides similarly to a bike and not like a train.
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MOTO13
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7/13/2021 10:32am
Can't say how they are in the Alps, as I have never ridden there. As far as emtb's being a "gimmick", doubtful. Kind of like TV's were a gimmick in the 40's I guess.

I ride single track in the midwest. This is probably the best use of these emtb's bikes. The handling is GREAT. A normal rider where I ride, the difference is night and day. There is no way a regular mtb can keep up...ain't happening. Until the battery dies...lol.

Maintenance wise, I have owned my bike for 9 months...I have ZERO cost other than plugging it in and of course a few minor upgrades like bars, grips, tires.

Comparing an emtb to a motorcycle makes zero sense.
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Primoz
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7/13/2021 2:16pm
Of course an acoustic bike won't keep up with an e-bike on flatter terrain, nobody said the opposite.

Well, lucky, you, i've heard a lot of stories about chains wearing out in like 2 months, a cassette a season, etc.

Wasn't comparing it to a motorcycle, that's why I said if I wanted one, I'd do it proper, not by buying a half-way-there thing that I still have to pedal and that weighs 50 % more and is 50 % more expensive than the bike I have.

I'll stop here because I'm already looking like an internet asshole. And in the current world of acoustic vs. electric bikes there are plenty of those already.
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7/13/2021 3:14pm
As the slowest climber in a group this could be an upside for meSmile That being said, my main riding buddy is considering an E-mtb...I am hoping he will either pull me up the hill or agree to ride in areas where he can do twice the riding but meet me at the top on every second lap.

And even if folk cannot agree on the benefits/downsides of EMTBs, can the MTB community agree to stop using the term "acoustic" when referring to bikes? It doesn't make any sense, and surely traditional non-electrified bikes have garnered enough respect over the years to simply continue to be referred to as "Mountain Bikes". The new kid on the block with the same name as the OG kid always has to take the nickname/added initialSmile
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Primoz
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7/13/2021 9:36pm
Isn't the point trying to make e-bikes 'just bikes'? In that case having 'mountain bikes' and 'e-bikes' would be less than ideal. But I'm all up for having mountain bikes and e-bikes.
Suns_PSD
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7/14/2021 3:45am
MOTO13 wrote:
Can't say how they are in the Alps, as I have never ridden there. As far as emtb's being a "gimmick", doubtful. Kind of like TV's...
Can't say how they are in the Alps, as I have never ridden there. As far as emtb's being a "gimmick", doubtful. Kind of like TV's were a gimmick in the 40's I guess.

I ride single track in the midwest. This is probably the best use of these emtb's bikes. The handling is GREAT. A normal rider where I ride, the difference is night and day. There is no way a regular mtb can keep up...ain't happening. Until the battery dies...lol.

Maintenance wise, I have owned my bike for 9 months...I have ZERO cost other than plugging it in and of course a few minor upgrades like bars, grips, tires.

Comparing an emtb to a motorcycle makes zero sense.
I just can't understand the need for an e-bike on flat, bi-directional terrain. On flat terrain I can pedal as fast as I can go through the turns without sliding off the trail. A lightweight fast rolling bike is the key. It's also more fun and safer for other trail users.

Rode in CO last year and not all of the trails, but many of them were just very boring road climbs followed by a ripping one way extended downhill. To me, THAT'S where an e-bike makes sense. Would have loved to have rented an e-bike for those trails. My understanding is that those trails were temporarily made legal for e-bikes but due to issues, likely e-bikers going up 1 way descents, that trial period was ended.

Have also consistently noticed very new e-bikes for sale in Central TX. I suspect people buy them and then recognize that they are in fact not a good fit for our many bi-directional very short sighted flattish trails that have children/ hikers and so on also on the trails. That and it must be hard to really get the HR up.

Have only even heard about 1 e-biker on the 'good' trails from a friend, He said an e-biker was trying to go up a descent and when he told the e-biker that he was going the wrong way the e-biker removed his motocross helmet and declared 'that descent isn't possible...'

I'd be lying if I didn't say that when I'm riding the chunkiest bandit trails in the heat of a TX Summer that I don't fantasize about an e-bike. But not enough to buy one.
MOTO13
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7/14/2021 6:22am
I guess emtbs are something you either love or have no use for. Me, coming from a moto background, the fun factor was amped up by 500%. I can go faster, ride longer and with far less fatigue or problems with my previous injuries. Like I have said, I ride single track (one way) exclusively. But these trails also have uphill sections that are simply easier to ride and make the ascents far more fun. The downhills are the same obviously as a reg mtb. I have allowed several people ride my bike, and without question, every single one of them could not believe the difference. The cost was the main factor stopping them. I see A LOT of reg mtbs that cost as much as my emtb or more out there, so the expense is relative. It's just something you have to try and see if it fits your style of riding and terrain.
Suns_PSD
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7/14/2021 8:57am
Oh, the money isn't an issue for me. If they were legal on TX public land, I'd own a high end e-bike. But they are specifically classified as motorcycles here and TX law clarifies this and goes on to state that if motorized vehicles are not allowed, then e-bikes are not allowed either on any public land.

The fact that it would be easy to get away with breaking these laws is not a deciding factor for me. I choose not to endanger our trail access by taking a motorized vehicle on non-motorized vehicle trails.

But as an ex-MXer, with 20+ broken bones in my history and being 50 years old in 3 months I'd be all about them for the really tough trails if they were legal.
Primoz
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7/14/2021 10:06am
MOTO13 wrote:
I guess emtbs are something you either love or have no use for. Me, coming from a moto background, the fun factor was amped up by...
I guess emtbs are something you either love or have no use for. Me, coming from a moto background, the fun factor was amped up by 500%. I can go faster, ride longer and with far less fatigue or problems with my previous injuries. Like I have said, I ride single track (one way) exclusively. But these trails also have uphill sections that are simply easier to ride and make the ascents far more fun. The downhills are the same obviously as a reg mtb. I have allowed several people ride my bike, and without question, every single one of them could not believe the difference. The cost was the main factor stopping them. I see A LOT of reg mtbs that cost as much as my emtb or more out there, so the expense is relative. It's just something you have to try and see if it fits your style of riding and terrain.
I have no problems admitting I'm a weirdo, ex XC racer, I can and like to do 2000 m vertical rides, I like technical traverses where you have some punchy climbs in the middle, where you have to pedal a bit, carry speed, etc. And I have no problems doing that on a normal bike, I don't feel like I need electricity. If I had ridden an eMTB for maybe a month, maybe it'd be different, what I have ridden (both the bikes, the amount of time and the terrain), the only 'benefit' was being up there a bit faster (It took me 1,5 hours for a loop that takes me ~2,25 to 2,5 hours on my normal bike). And I am trying to go towards the quality, not quantity mentality lately. Plus I do get immense joy (type 2 fun of course) from clearing technical climbs and keeping up speed on technical traverses. So my comments about my e-bike dislike do have to be taken with a grain of salt or two.

As for the price, an e-bike will _ALWAYS_ be heavier and more expensive than a normal bike. No matter what anyone says. Economies of scale cannot be a factor here, as the frames use the exact same technology to be manufactured, so you cannot save hundreds of dollars per frame of an e-bike compared to a standard bike to make an e-bike priced the same as a normal bike. At least not with the same components (or the same level of components). Not even with a 20 or 50-times volume difference (with e-bikes selling 50 samples for a single normal bike, which I do not see happening). Same goes for the weight, the fact you have additional components means an e-bike can not be as light as a normal bike at the same level.
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owl-x
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7/15/2021 1:36pm
JVP wrote:
Come join me on a ride with 5k of climbing. Oh wait, you cant. I'm not anti-ebike. I rode with an out of shape buddy who...
Come join me on a ride with 5k of climbing. Oh wait, you cant.

I'm not anti-ebike. I rode with an out of shape buddy who was on one this morning. But that's their biggest downside until batteries get a lot better.

just rolled my eyes so hard they fell down my throat and into my tumtum dude.

eMTBs are there.

They're there on the ups and they're there on the downs. If your friend was in shape, he would've roasted you so hard he'd be challenging strangers on the internet. OP is right, it's actually really hard to tone down an eeb ride enough to ride with pure(ist) pedalers. Shimano's ECO mode will pedal away from everyone but 50bpm resting heartrate guys, tryhards on cross bikes, leaving intra-motor riders even more exhausted from the logistical related rate math problems of rendezvous here meet me there, i'll call you when I'm at the bottom of this here etcetera

I'm in similar cardio shape to when we last rode together, and I'm fairly certain I could do said lap twice in the time it took us to do one. I won't, because that sounds entirely too sweaty, but ease up: you're mis- or uninformed.

A decently fit climber with a 600Wh battery can get 5000 feet of vertical pretty easily, with much of that being in full assist mode.

So...which eMTB you gonna get?
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