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Since no one in this Forum is under age 35, and we are all going through mini-mid life crisises, how does this idea sound:
Ive floated this idea before, and the liability insurance would be nuts, but what about DIY frame kits? You kinda get to design your own frame, at least sizing and geo within given constraints, then you get shipped premitered carbon tubes and 3D printed lugs and some glue. You get to assemble your own Atherton style frame that you "designed" yourself! You'd also get a modular jig thats compact, and only aligns one joint at a time. Maybe there are various tiers of how much work has already gone into it, like mabye the tubing isn't cut/mitered yet so you can do it yourself.
Assuming you glue it well and dont die on your first ride, you can brag and have the satisfaction that you "designed" and assembled your own bike!
I hate to admit it, but cool looking bikes are what is exciting to me.
WAO Arrival, Antidote Carbonjack, Alutech Fanes, Vampire Fastarossa, Zoceli Naosm
Even ones from more mainstream brands
All Propains, Cannondale Jekyll, Orbea Rallon, Intense Spyder
There aren't many bikes these days that are "exciting."
There are lots of bikes that are "interesting." They did something different, and I'd like to try it. But it's pretty rare that it's something I'd actually want to spend my own money on. There are occasionally bikes that manage to do something interesting without incorporating a bunch of plainly obvious downsides. Those are the bikes that are exciting.
And then there are bikes that are "desirable." These are the bikes that I actually want to buy. They have the kinematics, geometry, and features that I want. More often than not, these are bikes that were moderately interesting a few years ago, and now their interesting-ness has become time-tested enough that I'm willing to spend money on it. The upsides and downsides are known quantities.
Bikes were a lot more exciting in the 90's and 00's when there was a lot more room for improvement. Taking a chance on something new was less risky since even though that new thing might suck, the alternative was something old that also kinda sucked.
Agreed on the arrival's quality. Absolutely crazy how far ahead of every other bike I've owned it was in terms of carbon layup and fit and finish.
It made early strides towards a longer wheelbase with a better f/r ratio closer to 1.8. It's downfall was the odd sizing (large was a medium, xl was an xxl), and way too low stack height (particularly for a bike with a f/r ratio that rewards central riding positions). The kinematics on the 170 weren't ideal either, you run into a wall deep in the travel that could trip you up on repeated big hits if you weren't in a good position.
I'd love to see a v2 arrival that has geo closer to the dreadnought v2. Speaking of which, an exciting bike to me would be a dreadnought v2 without the high pivot drivetrain. Chain dampers have come far enough now to make the benefits of a high pivot not as crucial.
The only bikes exciting enough to have me look twice right now is the Actofive P-train and Atherton S.150. Luckily they are too pricy for me to buy one. Honestly they just look sick to me and that's the whole reason they're exciting. The P-train has some interesting stuff going on besides looks but is stupid expensive unfortunately.
To echo what everyone’s said there’s not much these days that comes out that’s overly exciting. But there are still bikes that stick out in the last couple years that have made me very tempted to buy one.
QC issues aside, the pivot Phoenix was an exciting bike launch to me because it was doing something pretty different that was also rooted in a measurable performance increase. I’ve always been on the high pivot hype train but that coupled with such a low weight, especially for a downhill bike, made it exciting to me. The new forbidden bike looks really dope but I heard mixed things about the performance increase over the last generation so it kinda killed the excitement.
I’d say uniqueness has some variable in it too. Even though I was working at a trek shop and ended up buying it after it released, I was less excited about the new trek slash vs the new dreadnought. I work at a speccy shop now and nothing on the gravity side that they’ve released has really caught my interest for more than a week. The new stumpy is cool, but everyone and their mother is gonna own one soon. On the other hand, if they release that downhill bike or translate that into a new enduro, I may be waiting with cash in hand.
I think something unique that has some supported performance benefits these days is what makes a bike launch that’s actually exciting. Obviously these days though any sort of unique performance benefits is damn near unheard of.
The dreadnought v2 never got a fair shake really. A one or two day test isn't enough time to retrain ones approach to cornering.
It requires such a different riding position that the better you are with a traditional bike, the worse you are going to be with the d2. I was not thrilled with mine at first, but as I adapted to how to ride it over the following weeks, it has become a favourite. Performance easily surpasses every other enduro bike I've had.
I was pumped for the phoenix's weight and dropper compatibility as well, but that shorter rear end was a let down.
Has me thinking man…maybe that’ll be my next bike to hold me over until specialized releases a new enduro in 2035
What bike did your v2 replace? Do you find the adjustment to be pretty substantial between other longish chainstay bikes (raaw, banshee, etc) or just substantial when compared to like an enduro, yeti, etc?
When I was young it was all about the marketing, Bearclaw on the SX Trail doing a 180 foot plant off a cliff, Semenuk laying it down on a Ticket S, even Aaron Chase and Jeff Lenosky throwing down for Cannondale and Giant was cool.
These days like others I'm interested in the value, the robustness, but also on my end how the company supports the sport. A lot of people don't love Trek but in the midwest they make a decent amount of grants for trail centers and I know they've donated bikes to local kids programs. That's exciting in my eyes.
It directly replaced an arrival 170. But I had a claymore, slash 6 and a bunch of others prior to that (nomad 6, giga 290, enduro, etc.).
I had the opportunity to try a Madonna for a few days and liked it. I'd say it was like half way between a vanilla enduro bike and what the dreadnought v2 is. Didn't make as much traction in unsupported corners as the d2, and I wasn't a fan of the weight. Drivetrain was more efficient than the d2, but the suspension was more active under pedalling. Sapped a lot of energy on those long, mild grade climbs.
Best way I can describe the experience is that you have to stay in the center of the bike and really drive the bike through your hips/feet. It carves and makes traction in places that it just shouldn't when rode that way. The second you start regressing back to the old "elbows up, low and aggressive" positioning it will be a step backwards.
Brian Cahal should have a review out soon of the dreadnought v2. He has been on one all summer.
His stuff tends to be pretty spot on.
Curious your thoughts on how much of the cornering differences/technique/traction are the kinematics of the D2 vs how much is the very balanced f/r geo and stack etc.
Like what aspects would you give credit to geo and what would you give to the HP. Definitely they mate well together! The geo/balance and kinematics.
Kind of crossing into the Bikeconomics thread, but what is "exciting" doesn't necessarily translate into sales and its sales the industry needs right now.
RAAW, as mentioned, are making some awesome, solid, reliable bikes, but I bet they aren't selling crazy numbers. Likewise Frameworks, Actofive, Forbidden etc. I admire and get hyped by what all those brands are doing right now, but would I buy one? Maybe not.
As the guys alluded to in the podcast, the industry is definitely turning into a barbell kind of scenario. The most exciting bike for me at the moment in the shop I work in is Marin's Rift Zone, its 1500 quid and if we had more, we'd sell more, like a lot more. Now that kind of bike hits two camps; the rider on a budget and the more affluent folks with more disposable income and kids who are now into riding. It's hitting both ends of the economic barbell. Most of us would look at that and go "WTF is there to get excited about there?". But its one kind of bike that is going to keep many shops and manufacturers going.
You go to some shops with loyal followings who can talk to people and sell them into a higher end bike and that side will continue to grow too. But its that middle ground that used to drive so much revenue that is still lacking and society becomes more widely split financially. Ten years ago, when Mondraker were doing Forward Geo before anyone else and the economy was in a much different place, you could those things all day long on finance because more people had disposable and e-bikes still weren't really all that hot.
Nowadays that mid-range consumer doesn't have the cash to spare and/or for just a bit more, they can get into an e-bike. Thus that mid-range customer, becomes a higher-end one and gets an e-bike, or their financial position forces them to go lower-end than they would a decade ago. That mid-range market just gets smaller and smaller.
And once you get into e-bikes, its just a d!ck swinging contest. Most riders want more power, more range and its easy for anyone, literally anyone, to put a number on what is better than the other. Would anyone buy a bike with a Shimano or SRAM motor now? Probably not because it can't compete with the latest Bosch/Avinox motors.
I think that's why we've seen companies like YT/GT/Rocky/Kona etc struggle. Mid-range bike sales are plummeting and in many cases they didn't make the right choices/mistimed for their e-MTB motors and/or spread themselves to thinly, with a far bigger range than they needed. And that's not a slight at them, its just the way is evolving. Now if there was a universal mounting system for motors/batteries, its a simple spec change one year to the next, but it isn't, its a complete redesign that just isn't feasible.
TL:DR, there is so much exciting work going on in the industry right now, BUT, I think it needs to go back to basics and look after itself first and foremost. I'm not an e-MTB fan, but a universal mounting standard for everyone to adhere too would be a gamechanger for the industry and I think as motors and batteries evolve, it needs to happen for brands to survive. And it needs to pray that the wider economic disparity between the haves and have nots doesn't carry on getting wider and wider each year.
Almost entirely the geo and the f/r ratio.
The high pivot is fairly calm through the pedals, but doesn't feel like a high pivot in most places. You feel it in some corners, doing hp rear end lengthening things, but not as pronounced as other hp bikes I've ridden. Also doesn't have that squishy feeling, it's quite firm earlier in the travel.
I think it might be better if they went to a mid pivot no idler, with a chain damping device. But that's also one heck of an assumption based entirely upon my feelings. I'd say as far as kinematics go, it is no better than the nomad 6, which makes you question the extra drag of the hp drivetrain. It's the geometry/balance that makes it what it is.
I'm 6', currently running a s3 with the 470mm chainstay, in mullet configuration, with 30mm under the stem and 50mm rise bars.
Agree with you about the d*ck swinging.
A sub 45 pound ebike is so much more enjoyable to ride (like mine) but I don't want that. I want a DJI or 1200 watt bafang m560, to hell with whatever frame it's on
I'm on the Dv2 Medium, +10 MX setup with a +1 angleset. The stock shock is shit, the bike is better with a coil. With the angleset its closer to the 29er geo. FC/RC= 1.72ish I bought into the high pivot hype because I thought it was going to be the magic carpet ride but its still just a bike. It pedals very well (- the drag) for what it is.If you look at the kinematics it has anti squat number over a 100 in most gears. The worse part for me is the braking, it stays fairly stiff but some people like this. It would be cool to try a floating arm on this to see what something lower would feel like. I had a knolly's back in that day and swapped with a friend after selling him my old one and I was surprised how much I liked the active braking of those bikes. Honestly that bike had more of a magic carpet feel than a lot of bikes. I am tempted to try an O-chain on this bike just to see if it takes the edge off a bit. That being said when you have confidence, charging hitting your points and are switched on the bike is amazing. The elongating rear end doesn't seem to bother me for corning. Having said all that the only bike I would probably buy now is RAAW because of the lack of drag and better braking but I won't be buying one until they get yalla drop outs on the Madonna and then I can be disappointed by the axle path.
Appreciate the feedback! I assumed it was probably more so f/r ratio but good to know your take on it. I haven't really given too much care or thought into the HP but definitely been eyeing Forbidden for a bit for the F/R ratio in XL. As someone that is 6'2" and has a certain cornering style/technique, I sure would appreciate and be stoked on more balance in a bike! Truly hard to find in XL and close to that 1.8 ratio realm. My only complaint with forbidden is the stack heights but can always bring it up how you did.
I hope to get something built up with better ratio soon!
Again, appreciate the response back and your thoughts on it all from the experiences.
Agreed on the stock vivid air being trash. An ext storia was a revelation in comparison.
I found the drag from the hp drivetrain to be excellent in comparison to others I've tried (claymore, range, slash). And the braking behaviour has been good for me, much better than something like the claymore that pretty much locks up.
Like I said, the d2's magic is in the geo, not the hp rear end. Because it doesn't dramatically display the benefits of a high pivot, but it does have some of the negatives. That is essentially what people were asking for though, a hp that doesn't feel as much like a hp. But in reality it does work well at speed, it's mainly the slow, square edge stuff where you find yourself asking if it is a high pivot at all.
I found the Madonna to be excellent, just a little too chunky and floppy on the pedals for longer distance climbing/enduro riding. It definitely tired me out more than the dreadnought v2, with the same tires. But it's in my top three for enduro bikes I'd buy tomorrow. An arrival style carbon layup/quality in that geo would certainly be exciting.
This
I like the trend of bikes coming out with adjustable dropouts to change rear center lengths. It's been fun playing around with different dropout lengths with my Kavenz and it looks like Banshee, Crestline and Transition (with their new bottlerocket) have something similar going on.
I wonder if eccentric bottom brackets will ever be a thing. I think a few world cup DH bikes have them, but would be an interesting way to adjust F/R ratio without changing wheelbase.
how did that get two downvotes?
I just tracked those two brands down and started following them on IG.
As frames congeal around the same geo and suspension layout I think the most exciting thing is trying alternate components. So sales models like Raaw's rolling chassis, or Commencal a la cart, or Intense Frame First I find very appealing.
I would get excited for a new short travel Banshee with nice external routing. Banshee IMO have the geo I like very dialed. When my biggest complaints of your frames you released in 2019/2020 is that the seat post insertion needs to be like 25mm more, and external routeing options would be nice, I think you have done a very good job designing your bike.
Chris Canfields Vampire Fastarossa is an exciting concept, and the theoretical shorter travel Ti bike that he had previously said would be out this fall. Similar to the Orbea mentioned earlier, it would be pretty great to have an enduro bike that you can change to a DH bike if needed. On this all you really need is the fork. No links or fittings to change, same shock stroke used for up to 40mm of rear travel difference. I would happily replace 2 of my bikes with one.
I would probably order one....
It's an idea but a pretty big safety thing to allow people to do final construction at home. If you want that you would be best to find a small frame builder to work with, or even a company like Atherton who will work with you on geo a bit.
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams
Exciting bikes are becoming harder and harder to come by, as geometry, suspension design and manufacturing start converge. And it’s definitely not because there aren’t a ton of amazing and very interesting bikes on the market, I think we have more options than ever right now. And honestly, there’s very few bikes on the market that I think I’d actually dislike riding, or struggle to get along with.
Highly adjustable bikes are exciting in the sense that they are a huge win for consumers, the Kavenz VHP comes to mind with adjustable chainstay dropouts, shock mounts, wheel sizes, leverage rates, and dual crown compatible. It’s allows you to make it suit you and your preferences, now and if your riding style or location changes in the future.
The next exciting thing is construction style. Tube and lug is definitely having its moment, along with fully cnc’d frames. I think aluminum tube and lug is going to gain even more popularity, as we are already seeing with Atherton and Frameworks. What Cduro is doing is definitely something that sparks my interest too. If you follow along with Framework Bikes (not to be confused with Frameworks**), they shed a lot of light on the filament winding process, and the benefits it can offer when done well.
Smaller brands are doing some interesting things these days, but it can be a fine line between doing something different that offers a benefit, vs something that is just different for the sake of brand differentiation. I love unique suspension designs, high pivots, gearboxes, but how all those things are implemented becomes important as a whole package.
Who’s going to come out with the first integrated linkage fork (al a Structure cycles), high pivot, and gearbox-driven frame??? Although it’ll have to run a chain instead of a belt so it’s not too crazy…
At the risk of sounding like the 40 something year old average rider that I am, the new trek fuel and fuel + excite me. It falls into the category, suspension/geo etc, that the vast majority of riders, if they're honest about their riding require with the ability to easily tweak it one way or the other to personal preference. It seems to be getting pretty good reviews too, can't wait to try one!
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