Transition Patrol vs. Patrol - See How the 2018 Compares 45

This was a great review and comparison! Any chance you'll be doing this again with the 2019 vs. 2018 Patrol anytime soon? Would love to see that. Please and thank you!

Cheers, jvanny! As far as I'm aware, the only difference between 2018 and 2019 is to the shock tune. Transition is now including a larger 0.6 cubic inch volume spacer (versus 0.4) and has made some damping updates as well. They also have a carbon version.

WOW, awesome review guys! So great that we can always count on you for honest and detailed reviews!

Still waiting for the 2018 yt capra before deciding.

Cracking review from Vital getting into all the details that riders actually want to know - nice one!
Still no frame weights anywhere though ... can someone please get a medium and large frame + shock on the scales.

Thanks! :-)

Transition should be mailing you guys checks for doing such good marketing work for them. This is how you sell bikes. I love comparisons to see exactly why someone should choose one over another, especially when you have a myriad of choices. Doesn't help that people repeatedly say that you can't go wrong with any, when you're sure there's a choice that can better suit someone for no more cost than another.

I had to look for the ads to see how you are keeping this kind of quality free. There's only 3 ads on the page: top banner (TLD... someone give these guys pointers on how to make an effective ad), right side (RockShox reverb remote), and a banner way at the bottom (Fox Head movie).

Again, great work. The photos and video edit especially. Replacing a chunk of text with them is how it should be done! Love how the text is limited to providing context to photos, to draw attention to points of interest. Organizing the data in a table is much preferred over making an essay out of it and creating silly myths by oversimplifying things such as saying the 75° seat angle does this or that. Leave that nonsense to the comment section, and just deliver your best "non-biased" observations to support your impression.

Awesome comparison!! Really enjoy the in depth write up. Bringing out the tape and showing us real world changes/clearance sure is nice. Transition is doing a good job at justifying jumping on the trendy acronym age like other bike brands. The geo changes to the bikes make since for my trails and style of riding. Guess I will be driving to Bellingham for a test ride

Vital, you always do a great job of reporting the good stuff. Thanks

Can anybody explain why the seat angle gets slacker as you go up in size? Across the range from an XS to an XL it goes from 78.4 to 76.1, dropping about 0.5 degrees per frame size. This is something that Transition has been doing for some time and I've always struggled to understand it. A taller rider will almost always be running more seatpost than someone on a smaller frame, moving their weight further back when they are climbing. This is then further exacerbated by slack actual seat tube angles... I really wish that companies would publish this number along with the virtual seat tube angle.

I'm 6'4 with a 38" inseam, meaning that I run a lot of seat post. On my Nomad with a similar length seat tube to an XL Patrol I have about 225 mm of post above the frame. With that amount of post extending from the frame the actual seat tube angle makes a notable difference in where my weight is centered for climbing. I'm really intrigued by the SBG concept, but I'm also really struggling to understand the logic involved in slackening the seat post angle as you go up in size. If anyone here would care to enlighten me I'd really appreciate it.

The published numbers are the "effective" seat tube angle. That is showing the angle at an estimated seat height per size. The actual angle is the same on all sizes.

Makes sense as an answer, though also highlights the point DMax makes, that taller riders are getting a slacker effective STA; which is not great

Still waiting for a longer warranty period before I replace my scout. Same price model as Santa scruz but no lifetime warranty, come on chaps step it up.

Just remember, Santa Cruz will warranty for manufacturing defect, which are few and far between. In real world practice, I know for a fact neither company will leave you high and dry, but even Santa Cruz may ask for some money if they deem the failure to be from something outside the realm of "defect". (EG, a rock striking the downtube causing a crack does not equal defect)

Two years of shredding will be enough to suss out any real manufacturing defect for most riders. And if something were to fail outside of that, they'll hook you up for a really fair price.

I think its a pretty fair deal all things considered, and again, think we as mountain bikers often expect warranty to cover more than it does in *any* other sport.

"they'll hook you up for a really fair price." 50% off normally. I agree im sure TR would (being nice guys) be pretty fair if there was a manufacturing issue but would it hurt them so much to increase their warranty to 5 for peace of mind? I love my alu Scout but wouldn't buy a carbon frame at the moment off them.

Did you do any climbing with that super steep seat angle? The older patrol climbed great.

Im also interested on how a 64ha climbs since this is a enduro bike which you do a lot of climbing as much as descending.

The new bike saw plenty of climbing. Occasionally it can feel as though the front wheel is a ways out there, but after a short adjustment period your timing adjusts naturally. Seated, the bikes are almost identical when it comes to bar position. On gently winding singletrack the two bikes also often felt very similar.

Pointed uphill, tight switchbacks often present a challenge for many riders. SBG's smooth arcs once again came into play here, never once flopping. Depending on the turn, if it does start to dive in it seems to gently guide you in the direction you wanted to go. I found it easier to maintain balance even at slow speeds while pedaling uphill.

Transition is absolutely killing it right now from a product and branding (and beer drinking) standpoint. Pretty hard to criticize nearly any of those geo or spec details. Well done fellas.

bturman - Can you give us an idea of how does the Patrol compares to the Devinci Spartan and SC Nomad 4??

It would be nice to see a comparison between the 3 bikes

Cheers

I have yet to ride the new Nomad, but have put in a ton of miles on the new Spartan. Those rides included several laps on the same trails shown in this feature. Given the choice I'd opt for the new Patrol. Confidence in the front wheel is all-time, and chassis balance feels better on the Patrol.

bturman - How does the new Patrol handle at slower speeds in tight technical trail sections? Also any noticeable differences in climbing? Ive been on the Patrol since its release and absolutely love the bike, just wondering if the new changes make less of a trail bike and more of a resort bike...thanks

Second hand info here, the reduced fork offset supposedly does negatively impact slow speed/climbing performance, at first anyway. I'm going to wager its like most changes - it just takes some getting used to. 10 years ago if you'd tell someone your trail bike would have a 64-66 deg headtube angle people would say "better get used to pushing it to the top", which is clearly not the case.

Side note, am doing my best to get my hands on a 44mm offset 29" fork to test on a variety of frames. Not exactly the same as Transitions SBG, but there are frames out there whereby it should make for a really interesting (and fitting) ride.

Awaiting what B has to say...

J

Anxiously awaiting reports of the revolutionary handling changes a 44mm offset has over the widely available 46mm.

I would think you'd need to go to the 42mm offset to notice anything.

Noah, are we going to see an MRP Ribbon 29er with a reduced offset - 46mm?

Yeah, you can order a Ribbon 29" with 46mm today.

On 29? I'm riding 51. So 44 would be a pretty big difference. I'd prefer 42 but that's going to be harder to come by in the near future.

Transition will have Fox 36s and 34s (perf elite and grip versions) available with 44mm offsets and Rockshox Lyriks, Yaris and Revelations/Pikes (for Smugglers) will be 42mm according to a post from Transition on mtbr. DVO is going to make a 44mm Diamond as well.

some companies are making 42 offset. it's real nice

Some companies indeed. But unless you are an engineer or top 30 EWS rider (or both ) they are not something the public can get their hands on. Dick. Ha.

@jeff.brines @bermsmasher The new bikes actually handle even better at low speeds than previous models. The idea behind "Speed Balanced Geometry" is that the bike's characteristics match the wheel speed. As such, at low speeds, it's quick and nimble, and at high speeds, it's stable. The new bikes achieve this in multiple ways, one way being the steeper seat tube angle. This keeps the riders mass up and forward on the bike, instead of sagging deep into the travel and being behind center on a steep climb. This keeps the bike from "wandering" while climbing. In addition, the short offset fork makes the steering quicker and more nimble while doing those small corrections while climbing technical terrain, while the slack headtube keeps it stable at high speeds where you are rarely turning your handlebars more than a few degrees. This is all pretty complicated stuff, so summing it up in a comment is tough! But from our testing, and the reviews of the many riders that have ridden them, the new bikes pedal as well or better than previous.

I'll hold out till I try it but the limited time I had (awhile ago) on a reduced offset fork made for a "floppy" feeling front end. It wasn't a bad thing in most "real" riding situations, but it aslo wasn't as brainless while climbing as the offsets we have today. (this was on a more XCish rig)

I think there is some misconception around what offset does, and I'm not going to pretend to be the master of understanding all of it. (don't forget, it was a handful of years ago Trek was SURE 51mm offsets fixed all the "problems" with 29ers). To my point, wouldn't a larger offset make for a quicker feeling bike? So a smaller offset with slacker headtube maeks for a slower handling bike all the way around?

In any event, what I do understand is fore/aft weight distribution and the idea of bringing the front wheel more "under" the rider makes a lot of sense, especially as we've pushed reach/HA without lengthening the rear end.

I am always skeptical of one thing making *everything* better but am always excited to check out something new.

Jeff, good job resisting the kool-aid. I'm not saying that as a package, with a shorter stem and steeper sa, these bikes don't work as advertised, but strictly speaking reducing offset increases trail and means you have to turn the bars more at low speed. Early 29ers were indeed miserable to ride partly due to low offset, but they also didn't have 40mm stems and slack ha.

Most folks are on bigger wheels and heavier tires now, so it may be that having a bit more leverage on the front wheel and the weight more inline with the steering axis adds a feeling of quickness even though it's not rigidly true in terms of steering geometry, as long as you have a short enough stem that there's no tiller effect.

Back in the heyday of 26" wheels, the Fox 36 had 37mm offset/rake vs 39mm on the 32 and 45mm on the 40. Manitou Nixon 41.28mm. RS Lyrik 40mm. Marz 66 RC3 44mm.

Perhaps some people who rode all of these may offer an opinion on how such a slight geometry difference made an impact on their riding.

As far as I know, the less offset, and the bigger the wheel, the more of an auto-centering effect there is as the wheel rolls forward. Equates to more stability. There's more wheel flop though, if you turn the bars too far.

I think the bigger difference is a longer front center, and longer reach. Just think about the reach, you have 455mm, or about 18" from where you're standing on the BB to the front of the bike. That's a foot and a half from the grips, if you stood up! If your feet weren't at 3 and 9, you'd basically be holding yourself in the "invisible" chair position. You get a lot more relief rotating the body forward from that position. The longer front center makes the bike not pitch up as much from uneven terrain.

One other thing that isn't being talked about - these super steep STAs are awesome for keeping the front wheel down and keeping climbing sag in check. However, from a pedaling perspective, they can leave something to be desired. Especially for a bigger guy like me who generally turns a slow cadence and big gearing. I'm simply more powerful, more efficient, when my leg is a bit further "behind" the BB.

Food for thought...not saying the SBG is bad at all, again, I'd say its the thing I'm most intrigued by for 2018, but are no free lunches out there...

As another taller rider, I'm excited to try these out. No way to say for sure without having ridden one, but based on what I've heard so far I'm seriously interested in a Sentinel as my next bike. As far as the seat tube angle is concerned, the actual seat tube angle doesn't look crazy steep, like on say a Pole, so my intuition is that once you have 180mm + of seat tube extended up from the frame that it will still be a reasonable pedalling position. Overall it seems like fighting the front wheel less and not being so deep in the sag while climbing will make up for whatever is lost.

In the end, pedalling position can be further tuned by moving the saddle on its rails. Its not a widely available option, which is too bad, but 9.8 offer interchangeable 0 layback and 25mm layback heads on their Fall Line posts allowing riders to really play with what works for them. I haven't checked with them on this, but it also looks like you could run the 25mm layback head in reverse if you wanted to experiment with steeper seat tube angles. My one concern right now is that on an XL the 640mm top tube might be a bit short for me when combined with a 40mm stem. That is also a product of the steep seat tube angle, so like you said there are no free lunches, just good compromises.

Out of curiosity how tall are you and based on the numbers would you see yourself on a L or an XL?

Think of steeper STA as merely offsetting excessive rearward weight bias, which is worsened by extending the length of the front, while keeping the rear length the same.

I have two posts that go more into this here and here.

I believe taller guys need longer chainstays, personally. Need to keep things in proportion, not just increase the seat tube length, front triangle, and head tube an inch or two for every 5" inches in rider height.

"I believe taller guys need longer chainstays, personally."

...you had me at "longer chainstays"

FWIW, I'd probably drink the kool-aid full on and go XL - though my gut says L. I'm 6'2 200lbs.

I have tried a 29er at 64° and 42mm offset (like the Sentinel) and the wheel flop just plain didn't work where I ride. We have a lot of short, steep trails where often as much naturalness has been actively protected so to keep as much tech in as possible. I found roots and rock and even camber would grab the front wheel and pull the flop over and send you offline. It was just clumsy. When you could open it up like in the park type trail above it was pretty good but even then I found so much trail wasn't better in every situation as I'm being led to believe of the new Transition bikes.
I should qualify this by pointing out I was using a 50mm stem (which i stubbornly stick to to provide steering stability, not fit) and had a bike with 450mm chainstays. So quite different to the new Transitions. Even so I'm struggling to imagine the TR bikes being somehow miraculously better for me on our trails.
Can't wait to demo one though!

I find it very intersting that many people question the offset in comments. Wonder if it was the same way when Giant introduced the longer offset for their Reigns.

Hope to get to demo a new Patrol/Scout soon.

How much does the XO1 build weigh?

this is awesome! do the Following and the Following MB next!!

Great comparative article. Patrol v2 is an absolute weapon of a bike.

wow! recently bought a brand new 2016 patrol frame for a killer deal and loving it so far. Should I known better, I would have waited for the new one.. oh, well... I'm guessing I'll be ok for the next couple of years... "Go out and gid"

Any weights for the new models?

Killing it with the original content! Keep it up