The Amflow and Teewing bikes look like a good value. Can you actually buy one and have it within a week? Seems like there are a lot...
The Amflow and Teewing bikes look like a good value.
Can you actually buy one and have it within a week? Seems like there are a lot of people waiting around for Avinox equipped bikes that were ordered and in some cases paid for a while (months) ago. Considering how fast new bikes are coming out, I would not want to wait around.
I was chatting with teewing canada. They have medium flux' ready for shipping from BC. Larges sometime this month. Not much to swap if anything on those bikes. Pretty dialed out of the box 9200cad with fox performance 180f/r, mullet, 155 cranks, 35mm rise bar, 170dropper m and 200large. Maybe swap dh casing tires in place of the enduro casings it comes with?
TLDR: I would buy the cheaper PX Carbon and buy better suspension second-hand on marketplace, and romp it for a long time. The bike was super capable and fun to ride, it's light, the motor/range/tunability/interface is great, and all the geo adjustments make it quite adaptable.
Jason does not ride second hand!!! Nothing but the best!!!!
TLDR: I would buy the cheaper PX Carbon and buy better suspension second-hand on marketplace, and romp it for a long time. The bike was super capable and fun to ride, it's light, the motor/range/tunability/interface is great, and all the geo adjustments make it quite adaptable.
TLDR: I would buy the cheaper PX Carbon and buy better suspension second-hand on marketplace, and romp it for a long time. The bike was super capable and fun to ride, it's light, the motor/range/tunability/interface is great, and all the geo adjustments make it quite adaptable.
both the PR and PX bikes that we've had were exceptionally quiet. it seems like every motor brand has both complaints of motor noise or praises of of them being quiet. i was lucky to have the PR, a bosch and a specialized at the same time. the PR was the quietest riding the same trail back to back to back.
TLDR: I would buy the cheaper PX Carbon and buy better suspension second-hand on marketplace, and romp it for a long time. The bike was super capable and fun to ride, it's light, the motor/range/tunability/interface is great, and all the geo adjustments make it quite adaptable.
What is your take on the maneuverability of that bike? We've seen comments here on the forums that a slim highly placed battery makes it harder to steer.
TLDR: I would buy the cheaper PX Carbon and buy better suspension second-hand on marketplace, and romp it for a long time. The bike was super capable and fun to ride, it's light, the motor/range/tunability/interface is great, and all the geo adjustments make it quite adaptable.
both the PR and PX bikes that we've had were exceptionally quiet. it seems like every motor brand has both complaints of motor noise or praises...
both the PR and PX bikes that we've had were exceptionally quiet. it seems like every motor brand has both complaints of motor noise or praises of of them being quiet. i was lucky to have the PR, a bosch and a specialized at the same time. the PR was the quietest riding the same trail back to back to back.
It would be better if you tested it specifically also with the chain off to discount for kinematics and resonances from the frame and isolate noise. There is also a psychoacoustic component: many people claim the bike is silent when just riding it because they focus on riding.
And it's not really true that every motor brand or model has complaints about rattle. It's very different for certain models and some truly have none while others will rattle continuously on a fireroad.
So far M1/M2 seem to rattle and for MS2 it's unclear if only some units rattle due to issues or if its a more widespread issue where they are prone to rattling after some time.
TLDR: I would buy the cheaper PX Carbon and buy better suspension second-hand on marketplace, and romp it for a long time. The bike was super capable and fun to ride, it's light, the motor/range/tunability/interface is great, and all the geo adjustments make it quite adaptable.
What is your take on the maneuverability of that bike? We've seen comments here on the forums that a slim highly placed battery makes it harder...
What is your take on the maneuverability of that bike? We've seen comments here on the forums that a slim highly placed battery makes it harder to steer.
I didn’t pull the battery out of the PX, but at least based on the graphics they provide, the battery makes up the majority of the down tube. So it’s not like the weight is centralized up high - it’s spread out and still mostly placed between your feet with the motor. I didn't find that just because the PX weighs less, that the battery placement had more of an influence on handling/steering. To me, the bike rode like a lightweight e-bike. It took more rider input to move on trail than a pedal bike and under heavy braking I notice more forward drive that required earlier braking on steep trails, but compared to a typical 50+ lb e-bike it felt much easier to handle.
Any comparison to the PR coming up? It's the same geo and kinematics so can't be that different right?
For the battery position, I think that argument is less important these days as 800Wh batteries have lost around 800g since the previous gen and the 700Wh in the PX is only just over 3kg.
It would be better if you tested it specifically also with the chain off to discount for kinematics and resonances from the frame and isolate noise...
It would be better if you tested it specifically also with the chain off to discount for kinematics and resonances from the frame and isolate noise. There is also a psychoacoustic component: many people claim the bike is silent when just riding it because they focus on riding.
And it's not really true that every motor brand or model has complaints about rattle. It's very different for certain models and some truly have none while others will rattle continuously on a fireroad.
So far M1/M2 seem to rattle and for MS2 it's unclear if only some units rattle due to issues or if its a more widespread issue where they are prone to rattling after some time.
i'd thought about a chainless comparison, but who rides w/o a chain? 3 bikes on the same trail in their stock configuration seems pretty reasonable. the amflow had s1000 transmission, the levo had X0 transmission and the bosch bike had mechanical XT rear derailleur.
which full size motor is reported to not have any noise? i realize TQ or Fazua small motors are insanely quiet. i've never ridden a giant/yamaha and was on a sram motor once a few years ago and don't remember.
The chainless comparison is for provoking the noise without the influences of the frame, kinematics and the focus on having to ride a difficult trail plus other stuff that can rattle. Just simulate what chain slap will do to the chainring by rocking it back and forth in quick succession and you'll hear if the motor theoretically can rattle in some models and how loud it is.
So far from recent full power motors only the Bosch Gen 5 and Brose S-Mag really have no rattle. The Sram motor is an S-Mag aswell as Specialized 2.1/2.2 motors (they don't rattle because of the belt which is also a weak point). I'm not sure on older motors but I think it started with motors getting more efficient with the e8000 shimano only rattling in certain models and really rough sections of trail while the sucessors who were more efficient rattle more. Similar story with Bosch until Gen 5.
To test it if a series is rattle prone you should test it at a dealer or when you have access to a bigger rent fleet. With a chain its a bit harder but you can still provoke it without riding it.
It would be better if you tested it specifically also with the chain off to discount for kinematics and resonances from the frame and isolate noise...
It would be better if you tested it specifically also with the chain off to discount for kinematics and resonances from the frame and isolate noise. There is also a psychoacoustic component: many people claim the bike is silent when just riding it because they focus on riding.
And it's not really true that every motor brand or model has complaints about rattle. It's very different for certain models and some truly have none while others will rattle continuously on a fireroad.
So far M1/M2 seem to rattle and for MS2 it's unclear if only some units rattle due to issues or if its a more widespread issue where they are prone to rattling after some time.
mine has cable rattle (the main cable that goes up to the display as it has quite some slack. most ppl on emtbforums are idiots who most probably can't discern the difference. so far one person had a faulty unit and avinox replaced it immediately. that's the content of the whole thread on m2s motor rattle. the end.
I've now seen multiple videos where people could reproduce a rattle sound without a chain so idk. I prefer to not believe the fanboys and girls on this. I've seen to many 'this motor doesn't rattle's claims over the years in reviews and posts to believe that when there is smoke there is no fire (in this case of motor rattle).
It's always the most silent motor in the early reviews but strangely only uphill noise is talked about.
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the front end down on the steep trails that power like that is useful for. I'd imagine avinox riders are turning down the wattage for most mtb trail usage. Special scenarios sure, but then you just burn thru your battery or you have a tank with massive batteries
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the...
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the front end down on the steep trails that power like that is useful for. I'd imagine avinox riders are turning down the wattage for most mtb trail usage. Special scenarios sure, but then you just burn thru your battery or you have a tank with massive batteries
that’s what people been telling me about the m2s but clearly it was all talk and they haven’t been trying it. Do I think more is more? Absolutely not, but usability depends on much more than those numbers. There are cars that can bring 600hp to the street and others feel like a ride on a cannonball with „only“ 200hp, both accelerating within the speed limits.
The usability of the m2s on the trail is excellent and I was coming from a point of view where I was searching for anything bad I could say, since the maxon AirS motor was relevant in my job. Don’t get me wrong, the maxon is a very impressive motor that I share much more sympathy with in terms of where it’s coming from, how light and neat it is etcetera. But…loads of power isn’t a limiting factor if applied correctly and overall the Avinox system rides better - period.
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the...
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the front end down on the steep trails that power like that is useful for. I'd imagine avinox riders are turning down the wattage for most mtb trail usage. Special scenarios sure, but then you just burn thru your battery or you have a tank with massive batteries
Idk, climbing up a very steep fire road on a gen 1 avinox and hitting the 20mph cutoff was pretty glorious
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever mph we all agree is acceptable.
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever...
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever mph we all agree is acceptable.
You might find some answers here, not all the latest Motors on the market but still a very interesting deep dive beyond that specific topic:
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the...
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the front end down on the steep trails that power like that is useful for. I'd imagine avinox riders are turning down the wattage for most mtb trail usage. Special scenarios sure, but then you just burn thru your battery or you have a tank with massive batteries
Idk, climbing up a very steep fire road on a gen 1 avinox and hitting the 20mph cutoff was pretty glorious
I'm sure it is. Im just not so sure its worth the range sacrifice. Maybe in the future when batteries are lighter or bigger with the same power. Thats just such a small part of the emtb enjoyment. I want much more power than my 70nm e8000 on my 55lb decoy . I'd love to rally up the super steep tech singletrack a lot more than my e8000 will provide but im not really focused on logging road speed
Looking at the nicolai, I can't help but imagine trying to explain to the park ranger than I am actually riding a Class 1 pedal assist ebike, and not a surron type e-moto.
I want an eDH bike as much as anyone but I'm not sure this is a good direction for ebikes to be going. Let's make more ebikes that look like bikes, not motorcycles.
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever...
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever mph we all agree is acceptable.
People often blame motor resistance for the difficulty pedalling over the cut-off but IMO it's very little to do with that. It's more to do with your legs instantly having to double, triple or quadruple their output once the to motor drops. If you are riding at 24.99kmh with 150w of your own power and 350w from the motor (i.e. 500w in total) then once you hit 25kmh your are going to need to put that 500w+ by yourself to maintain that speed.
The only motor on that graph that has enough resistance to cause an issue is the MGU and that's because of the nature of it's design. Take the chain off any of the others and spin the cranks with the motor off and you will find very little resistance. The TQ bikes are always held up as an example of an easy to pedal bike without the motor yet it's one of the worst on that graph which points to it being more to do with the fact that TQ bikes are low weight rather anything to do weight motor "resistance".
I was chatting with teewing canada. They have medium flux' ready for shipping from BC. Larges sometime this month. Not much to swap if anything on those bikes. Pretty dialed out of the box 9200cad with fox performance 180f/r, mullet, 155 cranks, 35mm rise bar, 170dropper m and 200large. Maybe swap dh casing tires in place of the enduro casings it comes with?
Jason does not ride second hand!!! Nothing but the best!!!!
Did you cover the motor rattle in the review?
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/avinox-m2s-rattle.46696/page-16
both the PR and PX bikes that we've had were exceptionally quiet. it seems like every motor brand has both complaints of motor noise or praises of of them being quiet. i was lucky to have the PR, a bosch and a specialized at the same time. the PR was the quietest riding the same trail back to back to back.
why? there is no rattle
https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/r20-mgu-aon-edition-en
pit bits les gets has deets on the nicolai - "a full downhill ebike"
What is your take on the maneuverability of that bike? We've seen comments here on the forums that a slim highly placed battery makes it harder to steer.
on that topic, reece wilson is adding weight up high near the headset, along w/ weight down low (in same pit bits video above)
It would be better if you tested it specifically also with the chain off to discount for kinematics and resonances from the frame and isolate noise. There is also a psychoacoustic component: many people claim the bike is silent when just riding it because they focus on riding.
And it's not really true that every motor brand or model has complaints about rattle. It's very different for certain models and some truly have none while others will rattle continuously on a fireroad.
So far M1/M2 seem to rattle and for MS2 it's unclear if only some units rattle due to issues or if its a more widespread issue where they are prone to rattling after some time.
I didn’t pull the battery out of the PX, but at least based on the graphics they provide, the battery makes up the majority of the down tube. So it’s not like the weight is centralized up high - it’s spread out and still mostly placed between your feet with the motor.
I didn't find that just because the PX weighs less, that the battery placement had more of an influence on handling/steering. To me, the bike rode like a lightweight e-bike. It took more rider input to move on trail than a pedal bike and under heavy braking I notice more forward drive that required earlier braking on steep trails, but compared to a typical 50+ lb e-bike it felt much easier to handle.
Any comparison to the PR coming up? It's the same geo and kinematics so can't be that different right?
For the battery position, I think that argument is less important these days as 800Wh batteries have lost around 800g since the previous gen and the 700Wh in the PX is only just over 3kg.
i'd thought about a chainless comparison, but who rides w/o a chain? 3 bikes on the same trail in their stock configuration seems pretty reasonable. the amflow had s1000 transmission, the levo had X0 transmission and the bosch bike had mechanical XT rear derailleur.
which full size motor is reported to not have any noise? i realize TQ or Fazua small motors are insanely quiet. i've never ridden a giant/yamaha and was on a sram motor once a few years ago and don't remember.
The chainless comparison is for provoking the noise without the influences of the frame, kinematics and the focus on having to ride a difficult trail plus other stuff that can rattle. Just simulate what chain slap will do to the chainring by rocking it back and forth in quick succession and you'll hear if the motor theoretically can rattle in some models and how loud it is.
So far from recent full power motors only the Bosch Gen 5 and Brose S-Mag really have no rattle. The Sram motor is an S-Mag aswell as Specialized 2.1/2.2 motors (they don't rattle because of the belt which is also a weak point). I'm not sure on older motors but I think it started with motors getting more efficient with the e8000 shimano only rattling in certain models and really rough sections of trail while the sucessors who were more efficient rattle more. Similar story with Bosch until Gen 5.
To test it if a series is rattle prone you should test it at a dealer or when you have access to a bigger rent fleet. With a chain its a bit harder but you can still provoke it without riding it.
mine has cable rattle (the main cable that goes up to the display as it has quite some slack. most ppl on emtbforums are idiots who most probably can't discern the difference. so far one person had a faulty unit and avinox replaced it immediately. that's the content of the whole thread on m2s motor rattle. the end.
I've now seen multiple videos where people could reproduce a rattle sound without a chain so idk. I prefer to not believe the fanboys and girls on this. I've seen to many 'this motor doesn't rattle's claims over the years in reviews and posts to believe that when there is smoke there is no fire (in this case of motor rattle).
It's always the most silent motor in the early reviews but strangely only uphill noise is talked about.
new bafang motor that's stronger and faster than anything so far. full PDF below
People have been hot-rodding the m560 to get near 2kw for a while now.
Im not sure that power is useful. You can get to max speed on a steep slope too quick already. Its not super manageable keeping the front end down on the steep trails that power like that is useful for. I'd imagine avinox riders are turning down the wattage for most mtb trail usage. Special scenarios sure, but then you just burn thru your battery or you have a tank with massive batteries
that’s what people been telling me about the m2s but clearly it was all talk and they haven’t been trying it. Do I think more is more? Absolutely not, but usability depends on much more than those numbers. There are cars that can bring 600hp to the street and others feel like a ride on a cannonball with „only“ 200hp, both accelerating within the speed limits.
The usability of the m2s on the trail is excellent and I was coming from a point of view where I was searching for anything bad I could say, since the maxon AirS motor was relevant in my job. Don’t get me wrong, the maxon is a very impressive motor that I share much more sympathy with in terms of where it’s coming from, how light and neat it is etcetera. But…loads of power isn’t a limiting factor if applied correctly and overall the Avinox system rides better - period.
Idk, climbing up a very steep fire road on a gen 1 avinox and hitting the 20mph cutoff was pretty glorious
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever mph we all agree is acceptable.
You might find some answers here, not all the latest Motors on the market but still a very interesting deep dive beyond that specific topic:
Deep Dive: Vertical Range, Range and Efficiency: Which Motor System Gets the Most Out of Every Watt-Hour?
Well true. Sounds pretty freaking cool.
So let me ask you this: How many laps can you get by doing that?
As natural bike is to my SL, so is my SL to avinox
I'm sure it is. Im just not so sure its worth the range sacrifice. Maybe in the future when batteries are lighter or bigger with the same power. Thats just such a small part of the emtb enjoyment. I want much more power than my 70nm e8000 on my 55lb decoy . I'd love to rally up the super steep tech singletrack a lot more than my e8000 will provide but im not really focused on logging road speed
Not sure I want to rep a motor named "Bafang" and badging that looks so close to Bosch. 😄
reece ripping the nicolai.
Looking at the nicolai, I can't help but imagine trying to explain to the park ranger than I am actually riding a Class 1 pedal assist ebike, and not a surron type e-moto.
I want an eDH bike as much as anyone but I'm not sure this is a good direction for ebikes to be going. Let's make more ebikes that look like bikes, not motorcycles.
People often blame motor resistance for the difficulty pedalling over the cut-off but IMO it's very little to do with that. It's more to do with your legs instantly having to double, triple or quadruple their output once the to motor drops. If you are riding at 24.99kmh with 150w of your own power and 350w from the motor (i.e. 500w in total) then once you hit 25kmh your are going to need to put that 500w+ by yourself to maintain that speed.
The only motor on that graph that has enough resistance to cause an issue is the MGU and that's because of the nature of it's design. Take the chain off any of the others and spin the cranks with the motor off and you will find very little resistance. The TQ bikes are always held up as an example of an easy to pedal bike without the motor yet it's one of the worst on that graph which points to it being more to do with the fact that TQ bikes are low weight rather anything to do weight motor "resistance".
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