DT Swiss DEG DF

Subscribed and following.

We shall see! Just came in

I’ve installed the kit into a new hub. The quality and execution is what you’d expect from DT and reflect the price. The only complaint I have is that comparing it to an O-Chain with the soft elastomer stop, the DF thuds rather aggressively.

I have it in a few bikes. I WORK AT DT SWISS. I have not ridden o-chain. 

I live in Western Colorado and basically ride in the 10 degree setting all the time. When I go to the bike park, then I swap to the 20. On my e-bike, it is always in the 10 setting. On my PNW trip last year I swapped depending on where I would ride. 

Around here, trying the 20 degree at our techy trails, you do get a bit of a thud when riding technical terrain on the analog bike. I haven't noticed that as much on my e-bike. 

I wonder if the 20 degree setting could benefit from a small piece of 3M 2228 tape or something similar to reduce the metal on metal contact. Might have to try this on my hub. 

There is probably single digit mm2 of contact area, the pressure acting on that surface is going to be huge! I don't think the you'd be able to feel a soft tape like that and it's likely to just disintegrate in the hub and cause issues.

Still waiting to be able to buy the hub with the DEF installed 

I have two sets of Reserve wheels with DEG DF hubs. One carbon frysauce and one AL SL. One is on my 180/170 Madonna with the 20 degree setting and one is on my 160/140 Trek Fuel EX in 10 degree setting. I have also had OChain on the Madonna so I can compare the two. 

Climbing: DF in 20 degree setting has a LOT of free play and it very odd when trying to rachet pedals especially in bigger cassette gears. The free play has no resistance and can be compared to having one of their 18T rachets with an even bigger dead band followed up a startling harsh engagement. For me it is not much of an issue because the Madonna is very much a winch and plummet bike. Comparing it to 9 or 12 degree on the OChain, it's free play has a very satisfying engagement due to the elastomers. It is not as jarring and has a bit of resistance since you are overcoming some springs before hitting the elastomers. It is more pleasant feeling when sprinting out of corners on descents. I do like the sound of 90T rachet but it is purely there for sound since DF negates any fast engagement benefits unless you set it to 0 degree setting.

Descending: It works as it says on the box. On both the bikes, the difference is very noticeable. Suspension feels more active and pedals are calm. 20 degree setting was better suited for the long travel bike and 10 degree is perfect for the shorter travel Fuel EX. 

How does descending feel compared to O-Chain?

Other than the engagement feel, really can't a difference between both when it comes to descending. They both mitigate pedal kickback and let your suspension work more freely. If you have a DEG hub then get the DF kit. If you are in the market for a new wheelset with DEG DF then Reserve wheels is a killer cost effective option. If you already have a solid wheelset then get OChain. Also if you like to run a smaller <30T chain ring on a big heavy enduro bike then DT/e13 sidekick are really the only options. Lastly, servicing OChain is a meticulous process while DF is as simple as any of their hubs. So maintenance wise DT get a plus. 

Agree, just thinking of different, creative ways to resolve this particular issue. Experimentation is fun. 

@sprungmass pretty much nailed it.  I have 2 bikes in my rotation that have ochains and just recently tried a deg-df kit in the only deg dt350 hub I have in my families fleet of bikes.  The degdf kit is 90% as good imo.  I prefer the ochain over the degdf, but the ochain is a pain, maintenance heavy, physically heavy, has chainring limitations etc etc.   As is noted, the deg-df will bottom out with a hard clank in certain situations.  In practice, this only happens rarely and 9/10, it happens because the user is pedaling squares like a muppet.  I think anyone whom has a decent pedal stroke from being on mtb's for years, will not run into except in rare circumstances... Those that may have a choppier pedal stroke and/or poor habits with ratchet pedaling will find it more often.  

Similarly to what is noted above, I prefer a 9-10 degree setting for most things... the 20 degree is too much in all but bike park scenarios.  I generally prefer how an ochain feels and I like them so much, that I would argue that there is no downsides to ochain while you're on the bike.  While you're off the bike and servicing it, whole-nother-story.  

There is zero reason not to try the deg-df setup if you already have a deg hub and it would be a huge consideration for me in the future in determining what rear hub I want to buy.  It's a no-brainer in terms of cost, simplicity and overall ride impact.  

With the forces involved something much stiffer like a piece of HDPE/Delrin/Nylon might do a better job and still give the "soft" pickup you're looking for. I suspect lifespan to still be quite limited however.

Agreeing that tape won't do anything but create a mess at these loads.  The OChain elastomers feel like hard plastic in hand.

I have an Ochain on my Slayer and got a set of DEG hubs, just for this tuning and to see how they compare. Will report here when the time comes.

Not rushing anywhere, but I realized I'm having this issue: I got a set of pink 350 hubs for a good online deal and figured I'll build a new wheelset for the DH/park bike I'm planning: I though the front 350 hub is the same as most: swap end caps from 15 mm and put them to 20 mm. But no, they are different hubs and the 20 mm axle will just not fit through the 15 mm hub's bearings. I've been told that there are axle conversions that enable you to run a 15 mm axle on a BoXXer.

Off-topic closed. Back to thread.
Mx

That was a big factor for me in ordering Spank hubs. Not to mention for having DH race spares I can have consistency with an o chain and not need multiple sets of wheels all built with the DF system. 

Does anyone has experience with DEF and High pivot bike? Thoughts?

Assuming it's a high pivot idler setup, you won't see a massive difference as the idler mitigates a lot of the pedal kickback already. If it is without an idler you'll see a big improvement as it will negate the very high pedal kickback high pivot bikes have. 

One thing to consider is that on certain bikes the pedal kickback during compression is actually beneficial as it aids pumping to generate speed. A bike with no chain does not pump as nicely as a bike with a chain where the chain growth will stiffen the suspension during the compression making it generate more speed. There are trade offs to completely eliminating pedal kickback 

I agree, but I also think I disagree. Wouldn't the benefit of better pumping come from the chainstay growth, and not from the pedal kickback?

For starters, I 100% agree that chainstay growth creates a better pumping bike when the chain is on, and by "chainstay growth," I'm referring to the move of the rear axle away from the bottom bracket that requires the chain to get longer. Idlers allow manufacturers to fine tune the amount of chain growth independent of axle path, whereas before they were always linked directly. Now you can have a rearward axle path, but a chain that doesn't grow as much between the top of the cassette and the top of the chainring. I remember hearing Greg talk a lot about fine tuning his idler location to balance the opposite goals of pumping and monster trucking.

But I don't think pumping requires the freehub to be engaged. I think, even with a freehub that's disengaged and freewheeling, the chain length still has to grow as you pump, which tugs on the pedals and cassette a little and your pumping forces have to overcome the derailleur cage spring and clutch. So I agree, if you take the chain off all of that chain-growth related support goes away, but I don't think an ethirteen Sidekick, WRP "Zero Drag" internals, or the new DT DEG DF freehub would affect the pumping feel, because I think regardless of the hub we assume the freehub is spinning during pumping on smooth terrain.

Does that make sense?

Yeah DT Swiss no longer does a convertible front hub AFAIK... I've been running a 15mm axle conversion kit for a while but decided I wanted a proper 20mm hub front wheel for various reasons and did a bunch of research on convertible hubs. Don't want to derail this thread but feel free to PM me if you want info on the axle conversion kit. 

What is the thinking for choosing the 10 deg setting in your EMTB? Wouldn't you want to run the larger 20 deg setting since the motor activating quickly takes up the freeplay so engagement speed is much less of a concern than on the MTB?