Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or a 45-55 pound ebike.
Not sure I'll ever have the privilege, but I do want to try an 'SL' ebike one day to see if it feels like a 'normal mountain bike with some climbing assistance' or just 'a slightly lighter ebike with worse range'. Canyon Spectral Onfly looks fun to ride. But considering how easy it is to drain a 540wh battery on a Decoy and how unfun it is to ride afterwards, I dunno.
It's the exact same compromise normal bikes have, regardless. A transition spire or frameworks enduro built to be ~40 pounds is very capable, but not as fun and plucky and playful as a lightly built 5010 or Shadowcat or something.
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider) Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or...
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider)
Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or a 45-55 pound ebike.
Not sure I'll ever have the privilege, but I do want to try an 'SL' ebike one day to see if it feels like a 'normal mountain bike with some climbing assistance' or just 'a slightly lighter ebike with worse range'. Canyon Spectral Onfly looks fun to ride. But considering how easy it is to drain a 540wh battery on a Decoy and how unfun it is to ride afterwards, I dunno.
It's the exact same compromise normal bikes have, regardless. A transition spire or frameworks enduro built to be ~40 pounds is very capable, but not as fun and plucky and playful as a lightly built 5010 or Shadowcat or something.
I have to agree with this. I have a medium fw enduro and almost wish i got a small at 5'9". Reach isnt crazy long but its a big bike. Also at 41 pounds probably about the weight of a sl e bike so im guessing one of them would feel closer to a normal enduro bike vs a 50lb e bike. Im about to do something dumb to see if i can make it feel a bit smaller. 1 degree angle set to steepen it slightly, 180mm airshaft, 10mm reverse angle spacer to replace the crown race, and a 27.5 front wheel. Not 100% sure how thats gonna go but wanted to give it a try full 27.5 and the other changes should make up for the smaller wheel geo wise
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered, to serve their riding.
There was, in a way, a brief moment where the bikes those riders wanted coincided with what the market offered (or at least close to it).
And now we have swung the other way, where pro slope/slalom/FR riders 'dumb' down their bikes from stock offerings to better serve their riding. Running smaller wheels, shorter cranks, angle sets to STEEPEN instead of slacken, downsizing frame size or for serious trickers sometimes literally double downsizing, etc etc
I've run my YT Jeffsy mullet in dual 27. It's quite fun. But not perfect. I've been looking for some older bikes/frames to make a slopeduro project out of.
I never expect someone to release a fun lightweight dual 27 ebike. Maybe the Canyon Spectral kinda works dual 27 but... Can't run short cranks right? dunno (I mean there are barely any fun dual 27 mountain bikes for adults left anyway.)
I did like the Mondraker Sly I demo'd, but kinda wish it was mullet. And their size chart is laughably weird. (think its the lightest ebike ive tried, ive not tried many. hated the Heckler SL for some reason)
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered...
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered, to serve their riding.
There was, in a way, a brief moment where the bikes those riders wanted coincided with what the market offered (or at least close to it).
And now we have swung the other way, where pro slope/slalom/FR riders 'dumb' down their bikes from stock offerings to better serve their riding. Running smaller wheels, shorter cranks, angle sets to STEEPEN instead of slacken, downsizing frame size or for serious trickers sometimes literally double downsizing, etc etc
I've run my YT Jeffsy mullet in dual 27. It's quite fun. But not perfect. I've been looking for some older bikes/frames to make a slopeduro project out of.
I never expect someone to release a fun lightweight dual 27 ebike. Maybe the Canyon Spectral kinda works dual 27 but... Can't run short cranks right? dunno (I mean there are barely any fun dual 27 mountain bikes for adults left anyway.)
I did like the Mondraker Sly I demo'd, but kinda wish it was mullet. And their size chart is laughably weird. (think its the lightest ebike ive tried, ive not tried many. hated the Heckler SL for some reason)
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink vacay. Bit heavy but looks like a fun poppy short chain stay bike. Other good options maybe a pivot mach 6 although super boost. I wish i got the small mainly for a little shorter chainstay. Around 440 feels good to me. 450 is a little long. Kind of want to try even shorter but dont want to sell my FW. My old bike was a stumpy evo. Around 445 reach. Going up to 460 feels a bit big. Hoping the angleset helps with that some.
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered...
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered, to serve their riding.
There was, in a way, a brief moment where the bikes those riders wanted coincided with what the market offered (or at least close to it).
And now we have swung the other way, where pro slope/slalom/FR riders 'dumb' down their bikes from stock offerings to better serve their riding. Running smaller wheels, shorter cranks, angle sets to STEEPEN instead of slacken, downsizing frame size or for serious trickers sometimes literally double downsizing, etc etc
I've run my YT Jeffsy mullet in dual 27. It's quite fun. But not perfect. I've been looking for some older bikes/frames to make a slopeduro project out of.
I never expect someone to release a fun lightweight dual 27 ebike. Maybe the Canyon Spectral kinda works dual 27 but... Can't run short cranks right? dunno (I mean there are barely any fun dual 27 mountain bikes for adults left anyway.)
I did like the Mondraker Sly I demo'd, but kinda wish it was mullet. And their size chart is laughably weird. (think its the lightest ebike ive tried, ive not tried many. hated the Heckler SL for some reason)
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink...
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink vacay. Bit heavy but looks like a fun poppy short chain stay bike. Other good options maybe a pivot mach 6 although super boost. I wish i got the small mainly for a little shorter chainstay. Around 440 feels good to me. 450 is a little long. Kind of want to try even shorter but dont want to sell my FW. My old bike was a stumpy evo. Around 445 reach. Going up to 460 feels a bit big. Hoping the angleset helps with that some.
Also those arnt ebikes. Dual 27.5 ebike is really a tough one now. Would definitely be voiding a frame warranty. Im surprised im not. I reached out and asked and they said it wont void the warranty and ill be the first person trying to set it up full 27.5 and asked me to let them know how it goes
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered...
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered, to serve their riding.
There was, in a way, a brief moment where the bikes those riders wanted coincided with what the market offered (or at least close to it).
And now we have swung the other way, where pro slope/slalom/FR riders 'dumb' down their bikes from stock offerings to better serve their riding. Running smaller wheels, shorter cranks, angle sets to STEEPEN instead of slacken, downsizing frame size or for serious trickers sometimes literally double downsizing, etc etc
I've run my YT Jeffsy mullet in dual 27. It's quite fun. But not perfect. I've been looking for some older bikes/frames to make a slopeduro project out of.
I never expect someone to release a fun lightweight dual 27 ebike. Maybe the Canyon Spectral kinda works dual 27 but... Can't run short cranks right? dunno (I mean there are barely any fun dual 27 mountain bikes for adults left anyway.)
I did like the Mondraker Sly I demo'd, but kinda wish it was mullet. And their size chart is laughably weird. (think its the lightest ebike ive tried, ive not tried many. hated the Heckler SL for some reason)
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink...
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink vacay. Bit heavy but looks like a fun poppy short chain stay bike. Other good options maybe a pivot mach 6 although super boost. I wish i got the small mainly for a little shorter chainstay. Around 440 feels good to me. 450 is a little long. Kind of want to try even shorter but dont want to sell my FW. My old bike was a stumpy evo. Around 445 reach. Going up to 460 feels a bit big. Hoping the angleset helps with that some.
Also those arnt ebikes. Dual 27.5 ebike is really a tough one now. Would definitely be voiding a frame warranty. Im surprised im not. I reached...
Also those arnt ebikes. Dual 27.5 ebike is really a tough one now. Would definitely be voiding a frame warranty. Im surprised im not. I reached out and asked and they said it wont void the warranty and ill be the first person trying to set it up full 27.5 and asked me to let them know how it goes
id love to see that FW in 275 when you do it. post a bike check. ez bike of the day!
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink...
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink vacay. Bit heavy but looks like a fun poppy short chain stay bike. Other good options maybe a pivot mach 6 although super boost. I wish i got the small mainly for a little shorter chainstay. Around 440 feels good to me. 450 is a little long. Kind of want to try even shorter but dont want to sell my FW. My old bike was a stumpy evo. Around 445 reach. Going up to 460 feels a bit big. Hoping the angleset helps with that some.
Also those arnt ebikes. Dual 27.5 ebike is really a tough one now. Would definitely be voiding a frame warranty. Im surprised im not. I reached...
Also those arnt ebikes. Dual 27.5 ebike is really a tough one now. Would definitely be voiding a frame warranty. Im surprised im not. I reached out and asked and they said it wont void the warranty and ill be the first person trying to set it up full 27.5 and asked me to let them know how it goes
id love to see that FW in 275 when you do it. post a bike check. ez bike of the day!
I definitely will. Its quite the build. Not sure if this will feel weird or not but im running a reserve alloy wheel on the rear and they didnt have 27.5 in stock. I found a reserve 30 carbon on jenson thats probably a 2021 model. For like 250$. Couldnt pass that up.
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider) Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or...
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider)
Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or a 45-55 pound ebike.
Not sure I'll ever have the privilege, but I do want to try an 'SL' ebike one day to see if it feels like a 'normal mountain bike with some climbing assistance' or just 'a slightly lighter ebike with worse range'. Canyon Spectral Onfly looks fun to ride. But considering how easy it is to drain a 540wh battery on a Decoy and how unfun it is to ride afterwards, I dunno.
It's the exact same compromise normal bikes have, regardless. A transition spire or frameworks enduro built to be ~40 pounds is very capable, but not as fun and plucky and playful as a lightly built 5010 or Shadowcat or something.
For sure.
I've got a variety of bikes from dh units to 5010's.
Honestly, they're all fun at some point. The more capable units (e-bike or not), you're simply going faster and trying harder when the fun starts... and the threshold is higher before it stops being fun. A 27.5 wheeled 5010 is decidedly not fun in a place like sunpeaks where you're trying to keep up to your buddies on a double black tech line, and they're on modern dh bikes. And a 50 pound e bike is pretty lame on rolling terrain, shallower descents, and the local pump track.
My buddy has a transition relay (sl ebike) that I've tried back to back with my old spire. Pretty much the same bike in terms of setup and tires. Not much difference between them other than the relay had more rattles from the goofy battery cover.
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider) Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or...
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider)
Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or a 45-55 pound ebike.
Not sure I'll ever have the privilege, but I do want to try an 'SL' ebike one day to see if it feels like a 'normal mountain bike with some climbing assistance' or just 'a slightly lighter ebike with worse range'. Canyon Spectral Onfly looks fun to ride. But considering how easy it is to drain a 540wh battery on a Decoy and how unfun it is to ride afterwards, I dunno.
It's the exact same compromise normal bikes have, regardless. A transition spire or frameworks enduro built to be ~40 pounds is very capable, but not as fun and plucky and playful as a lightly built 5010 or Shadowcat or something.
My Relay feels exactly like my We Are One arrival and better than my yeti 150. But with the power to make climbs very easy. And it doesn’t rattle after a couple pieces of foam, on the wire harness. Cover makes no noise. I did put my third motor in it today tho.
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider) Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or...
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider)
Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or a 45-55 pound ebike.
Not sure I'll ever have the privilege, but I do want to try an 'SL' ebike one day to see if it feels like a 'normal mountain bike with some climbing assistance' or just 'a slightly lighter ebike with worse range'. Canyon Spectral Onfly looks fun to ride. But considering how easy it is to drain a 540wh battery on a Decoy and how unfun it is to ride afterwards, I dunno.
It's the exact same compromise normal bikes have, regardless. A transition spire or frameworks enduro built to be ~40 pounds is very capable, but not as fun and plucky and playful as a lightly built 5010 or Shadowcat or something.
This is second hand feedback but, I had a buddy who is a very solid rider owned a kenevo SL expert for a couple years. He has had a full power / weight e bike before and since the kenevo. He still says that kenevo SL was the best e bike he's ridden by far. Weight was perfect so that you could still play around but had a bit of that ebike heft that kept it planted. Only reason he sold it was he paid way too much for it and was afraid to crash it every time he rode. Found someone to buy it and was able to get most of his investment back out.
This is second hand feedback but, I had a buddy who is a very solid rider owned a kenevo SL expert for a couple years. He...
This is second hand feedback but, I had a buddy who is a very solid rider owned a kenevo SL expert for a couple years. He has had a full power / weight e bike before and since the kenevo. He still says that kenevo SL was the best e bike he's ridden by far. Weight was perfect so that you could still play around but had a bit of that ebike heft that kept it planted. Only reason he sold it was he paid way too much for it and was afraid to crash it every time he rode. Found someone to buy it and was able to get most of his investment back out.
I had one too.
Felt like a yeti mte/relay with way less power, less range, and worse geo. The couple pounds difference was not noticeable and certainly didn't make up for the kenevo's longish list of shortcomings. It's a pity specialized essentially abandoned that model, it was ahead of it's time 6 years ago. I'd love to see a modern take on it with a tq60 motor, 580wh battery, and modern geo. Essentially a next gen relay.
It seems strange to me that manufacturers are really struggling to achieve that.
How have people liked the TQ motor? It's the one motor I haven't been able to try (well DJI now, too) even though it's arguably the most intriguing motor to me, being much smaller/lighter and having higher potential for universal mounting and backwards compatibility for long term ownership.
Think the inherent issue is it's still only being run as a lightweight platform and there are what like a few large battery models. MTE, one Propain, and a couple Treks? Or somethin.
Wouldn't mind that Propain at the current sale price, but can't even begin to think about that with the current economy.
side tangent / clarification: did you notice anything weird or good or bad in auto mode? outside of the outright stats where it used as much...
side tangent / clarification: did you notice anything weird or good or bad in auto mode? outside of the outright stats where it used as much battery as turbo but wasnt nearly as fast or efficient.
one thing i've noticed stealing my partners ebike is I hate when the ebike is trying to 'predict' my rider input, and is just getting it a bit wrong. kinda like a really terrible CVT... did auto give you those sensations? or was it basically just switching to turbo on any pitch and then back to trail on any flatter part, without getting it wrong at random times?
i guess if it still hits turbo at all the 'right' times... 1% saved is 1% saved (like you mentioned)
The auto mode on the levo is pretty good and fairly natural feeling to me. I usually use auto- setting for longer rides and try to...
The auto mode on the levo is pretty good and fairly natural feeling to me. I usually use auto- setting for longer rides and try to use eco when I can. For me the key is to try not to go into a higher assist mode because you'll feel so slow afterwards that you cant go back down. The hangover is real... But some sections of steep trail its better to bump up and make the climb then to push the bike so its a give and take.
TLDR - Auto mode is legit and feels pretty natural. Its nice that you can tune +/- to give it more or less juice.
Auto Mode felt really natural, which I know is cliche. But there wasn't any lag or surges in power. The biggest difference between Auto and Turbo...
Auto Mode felt really natural, which I know is cliche. But there wasn't any lag or surges in power. The biggest difference between Auto and Turbo was my cadence. The power from the motor felt similar, but from looking at the data from both rides, I was pedaling harder (Average watts - Turbo, 161W | Auto, 166W) and faster (average cadence - Turbo, 67 | Auto, 73) to receive assistance I wanted. So it did feel much more rider dependent than Turbo which had a less filtered power delivery.
Yea, I feel like Auto on the Levo 4 is pretty close to the Bosch's eMTB mode. I like it as well and I tend to stick with it on most of my ride.
With the range extender at auto, I was able to get 54 miles with over 7,000 of elev gained on predominantly auto.
So it's interesting to see battery consumption between Trail and Auto from your test. Good to know.
This is second hand feedback but, I had a buddy who is a very solid rider owned a kenevo SL expert for a couple years. He...
This is second hand feedback but, I had a buddy who is a very solid rider owned a kenevo SL expert for a couple years. He has had a full power / weight e bike before and since the kenevo. He still says that kenevo SL was the best e bike he's ridden by far. Weight was perfect so that you could still play around but had a bit of that ebike heft that kept it planted. Only reason he sold it was he paid way too much for it and was afraid to crash it every time he rode. Found someone to buy it and was able to get most of his investment back out.
I had one too.Felt like a yeti mte/relay with way less power, less range, and worse geo. The couple pounds difference was not noticeable and certainly...
I had one too.
Felt like a yeti mte/relay with way less power, less range, and worse geo. The couple pounds difference was not noticeable and certainly didn't make up for the kenevo's longish list of shortcomings. It's a pity specialized essentially abandoned that model, it was ahead of it's time 6 years ago. I'd love to see a modern take on it with a tq60 motor, 580wh battery, and modern geo. Essentially a next gen relay.
It seems strange to me that manufacturers are really struggling to achieve that.
Have you tried the Trek Slash+? I have one now and was surprised how balanced it is all round, incredible downhill but still poppy and playful when you want it to be. Haven't ridden the kenevo much, main issue that I had with it was the seatpost insertion was trash, the Slash+ just gives me so much more room to work in comparison. Have a mate with a MTE and he loves it, gets much better range out of it than I do with my HPR50.
Have you tried the Trek Slash+? I have one now and was surprised how balanced it is all round, incredible downhill but still poppy and playful...
Have you tried the Trek Slash+? I have one now and was surprised how balanced it is all round, incredible downhill but still poppy and playful when you want it to be. Haven't ridden the kenevo much, main issue that I had with it was the seatpost insertion was trash, the Slash+ just gives me so much more room to work in comparison. Have a mate with a MTE and he loves it, gets much better range out of it than I do with my HPR50.
I'm starting to feel like a try hard, but yes, I had one for a week.
Good suspension tune.
Kinematics were suspicious. Wanted an ochain for square edged stuff, surprising amount of chain tugging going on compared to other high pivots. Felt great at speed though.
I liked it on steeper bike park stuff where there was good traction and/or supported corners, less so on looser terrain with fast off camber corners. Chalk that up to the short chainstays, though it was better than expected due to the lengthening of the rear end under compression, I presume. I'm firmly of the opinion that any aggressive geo, size large bike with shorter than 450mm chainstays isn't going to excel in those situations. It was still good, on a global scale, but not as good as others. But better than expected after looking at the geo chart and noting the relatively tiny 434mm chainstay number.
Found the 50 to be pretty under-gunned for hauling the slash uphill, hard to keep up with even other mid powers. I wouldn't care if I was by myself. Tech climbing was more difficult with the low power and suspension characteristics.
Yeti would have made something I'd actually buy if they'd used the hpr60 and 580wh battery in the LTE. That would be the bike to have.
I'm starting to feel like a try hard, but yes, I had one for a week.Good suspension tune.Kinematics were suspicious. Wanted an ochain for square edged...
I'm starting to feel like a try hard, but yes, I had one for a week.
Good suspension tune.
Kinematics were suspicious. Wanted an ochain for square edged stuff, surprising amount of chain tugging going on compared to other high pivots. Felt great at speed though.
I liked it on steeper bike park stuff where there was good traction and/or supported corners, less so on looser terrain with fast off camber corners. Chalk that up to the short chainstays, though it was better than expected due to the lengthening of the rear end under compression, I presume. I'm firmly of the opinion that any aggressive geo, size large bike with shorter than 450mm chainstays isn't going to excel in those situations. It was still good, on a global scale, but not as good as others. But better than expected after looking at the geo chart and noting the relatively tiny 434mm chainstay number.
Found the 50 to be pretty under-gunned for hauling the slash uphill, hard to keep up with even other mid powers. I wouldn't care if I was by myself. Tech climbing was more difficult with the low power and suspension characteristics.
Yeti would have made something I'd actually buy if they'd used the hpr60 and 580wh battery in the LTE. That would be the bike to have.
Actually know a guy with the analog slash who had the same notes about the chain tugging and he ended up selling it. Personally haven't noticed any issues around that, at least in comparison to my previous bikes.
My frame of reference isn't as broad as yours as the only other E-bike I had spent significant time on was the Fuel EX-e and the Slash+ has been a big upgrade from that for my riding, mostly in that it's actually holding up and not wearing the suspension out anywhere near as quickly as I was with the EX-e.
Actually know a guy with the analog slash who had the same notes about the chain tugging and he ended up selling it. Personally haven't noticed...
Actually know a guy with the analog slash who had the same notes about the chain tugging and he ended up selling it. Personally haven't noticed any issues around that, at least in comparison to my previous bikes.
My frame of reference isn't as broad as yours as the only other E-bike I had spent significant time on was the Fuel EX-e and the Slash+ has been a big upgrade from that for my riding, mostly in that it's actually holding up and not wearing the suspension out anywhere near as quickly as I was with the EX-e.
We had the chance to do some battery testing with Specialized’s Turbo Levo 4 to get some stats on range. I did a test where I...
We had the chance to do some battery testing with Specialized’s Turbo Levo 4 to get some stats on range. I did a test where I did same loop in each mode to see how time/battery consumption/power compared, plus a battery draining ride with a range extender. It was more for exercise, but it was cool (and pretty tiring haha) to see how different modes ate battery, and how far you actually can go on a full-size eeb. I’d be curious to know what kind of range other riders are getting from their bikes. Feel free to list out your bike/battery size/motor system/rider weight/bike weight, and the distance/feet climbed/ride time you’re able to achieve.
Okay... I want to talk about the absolutely insane prices charged for e-bike range extenders*.
For the purposes of this rant I'll be using true blue dinky-di Aussie dollars. The range extender featured in the video is a 280 Wh unit and is currently listed at $950, or $3.40/Wh, while the SL range extender is even worse at $700 for 160 Wh or $4.40/Wh. Trek wants $900 for its 160 Wh TQ unit ($5.60/Wh...)
I can go to any consumer electronics retailer and walk out with a brand name 165 Wh power bank for $180 or... you get the idea.
* Do not get me started on OEM batteries for Canon interchangeable lens cameras.
You'll likely be able to buy a Semi- Solid state battery range extender inside of 18 months as these batteries are going into production bikes right now, with 2x the energy density. I actually think this is why Bosch RE's have been on sale and seem to out of stock at times.
I love the new Trek Slash-E but the issue is that it weighs the same as most full powers and it's deserving of hard-hitting suspension and tires. The SL's are hard to justify at the moment from a weight perspective, although my own XL Relay with dual coil suspension is 44.1#s ready to ride at the moment (rear tire is too light).
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting this false information?
Okay... I want to talk about the absolutely insane prices charged for e-bike range extenders*.For the purposes of this rant I'll be using true blue dinky-di...
Okay... I want to talk about the absolutely insane prices charged for e-bike range extenders*.
For the purposes of this rant I'll be using true blue dinky-di Aussie dollars. The range extender featured in the video is a 280 Wh unit and is currently listed at $950, or $3.40/Wh, while the SL range extender is even worse at $700 for 160 Wh or $4.40/Wh. Trek wants $900 for its 160 Wh TQ unit ($5.60/Wh...)
I can go to any consumer electronics retailer and walk out with a brand name 165 Wh power bank for $180 or... you get the idea.
* Do not get me started on OEM batteries for Canon interchangeable lens cameras.
What's even worse is that in many cases if you look the weights of the extenders for the energy provided, it seems like they might have older generation batteries inside.
The value proposition of extenders has always been silly: pay almost as much as a second battery, remove the ability to have a water bottle, add loads of weight and maybe you'll get to ride an extra 30 minutes...
For solid and semi-solid state batteries, looking forward to them also, but as Sethimus says, there is a ton of misleading information out there. E.g. https://ebike-mtb.com/en/semi-solid-state-battery-e-bike/ here we see that the cells themselves have 360Wh/kg written on them, a frequently referenced energy density value. But later on in the table of comparison they show the weight of the battery pack: 245Wh/kg, which is barely above what some bikes are managing to package today (BH and Orbea).
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting...
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting this false information?
It's "graphene" all over again 😁
That went from science to marketing real quick, and has never been produced outside a laboratory. Solid state has been just around the corner for over 30 years, seems unlikely to be tomorrow. But someone will attempt to use it in a marketing sense. Semi solid state sounds suspiciously like lithium polymer.
It's "graphene" all over again 😁That went from science to marketing real quick, and has never been produced outside a laboratory. Solid state has been just...
It's "graphene" all over again 😁
That went from science to marketing real quick, and has never been produced outside a laboratory. Solid state has been just around the corner for over 30 years, seems unlikely to be tomorrow. But someone will attempt to use it in a marketing sense. Semi solid state sounds suspiciously like lithium polymer.
There's enough history to know that battery progress has been incremental on a predictable curve, and will continue to be so. Increases in energy density of premium cells are in the range of 5-8% per year. So wait 5 years and you can knock 30% off the weight of your battery.
I've followed battery tech for way too long, and the hype of some breakthrough has a been a constant. The true breakthroughs are quiet and what brings us those steady 5-8% gains.
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting...
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting this false information?
okay unabomber, you are hereby barred from any battery purchase with tech newer than five years old.
watch us disappear over the hills on our mini-nuke SLs while you wonder which of your 18650s is going bad!
There's enough history to know that battery progress has been incremental on a predictable curve, and will continue to be so. Increases in energy density of...
There's enough history to know that battery progress has been incremental on a predictable curve, and will continue to be so. Increases in energy density of premium cells are in the range of 5-8% per year. So wait 5 years and you can knock 30% off the weight of your battery.
I've followed battery tech for way too long, and the hype of some breakthrough has a been a constant. The true breakthroughs are quiet and what brings us those steady 5-8% gains.
Those increases may have been what has trickled down to consumer markets through what are primarily manufacturing tweaks, but the base material science has remained unchanged for quite some time. It is unlikely to continue to improve at a steady rate. The prevalence of e-applications has more to do with advances in drive tech and the associated controls than accumulator advancements.
I think emtb full power weights are pretty close to where i want them with a 600w battery. Bosch are quite good at power management as were past levos(not sure about the current spesh). They seem to go 40%ish farther than shimano.
I think low 40's lbs is perfect. I can still throw the bike around and the bike isnt twitchy at speed. I can of like the idea of the new levo w the cascade link and a boxxer and run it with just the extender at the park and frame battery everywhere else. Im guessing its under 45 with just the extender?
With coil, 180 fork, dh casing tires and 220 rotored saints, al bars/rims my decoy is 55lbs. After my first e8000 motor s the bed i bought a commencal meta 29 and melleted it w dual offset bushings , 180 fork , and dh tires and it was 38lbs. Long, low and what should be stable felt super twitch in the park coming off the decoy. It took a few days of switching back to back to start to really enjoy the meta. Eventually i could adapt intuitively but i think , for me, the goldilocks weight is somewhere around 45lbs. Full power long travel bosch bikes w 600w batteries are 47-49. Thats pretty close and ythe downtube w a 600w should work well with a triple clamp
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting...
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting this false information?
Solid state and semi-solid-state batteries are entering mass production in vehicles as we speak in Asia. As in they are selling them to consumers now. MB plans for full on production next year.
In EV cars, eh, whatever. But there are two groups that will happily pay $1K to save a kilo, military drones and e-bikes. A bit further down I'd say electric e-MX bikes.
So, it's not that I have some inside info or anything, I just think a bunch of middle-aged geeks trying to relive their youth by wobbling around in a dirt field, are the most likely group to pay top dollar for this tech.
As far as what percent improvement in energy density we'll see, well that depends, I guess. But 500w/ kg is the expected density for SS & I believe 350w/ kg for semi-SS. Those are substantial improvements over, what about 210w/ kg currently?
My 2023 bike has gotten a 12% increase in battery energy density since I bought it.
Capable =/= fun (depending on the rider)
Not much of a compelling argument to be made of would you rather bunnyhop/scrub/etc a 35 pound mountain bike or a 45-55 pound ebike.
Not sure I'll ever have the privilege, but I do want to try an 'SL' ebike one day to see if it feels like a 'normal mountain bike with some climbing assistance' or just 'a slightly lighter ebike with worse range'. Canyon Spectral Onfly looks fun to ride. But considering how easy it is to drain a 540wh battery on a Decoy and how unfun it is to ride afterwards, I dunno.
It's the exact same compromise normal bikes have, regardless. A transition spire or frameworks enduro built to be ~40 pounds is very capable, but not as fun and plucky and playful as a lightly built 5010 or Shadowcat or something.
I have to agree with this. I have a medium fw enduro and almost wish i got a small at 5'9". Reach isnt crazy long but its a big bike. Also at 41 pounds probably about the weight of a sl e bike so im guessing one of them would feel closer to a normal enduro bike vs a 50lb e bike. Im about to do something dumb to see if i can make it feel a bit smaller. 1 degree angle set to steepen it slightly, 180mm airshaft, 10mm reverse angle spacer to replace the crown race, and a 27.5 front wheel. Not 100% sure how thats gonna go but wanted to give it a try full 27.5 and the other changes should make up for the smaller wheel geo wise
It seems there was a time where free riders and slope/slalom dudes had to modify bikes to be a bit burlier than what the market offered, to serve their riding.
There was, in a way, a brief moment where the bikes those riders wanted coincided with what the market offered (or at least close to it).
And now we have swung the other way, where pro slope/slalom/FR riders 'dumb' down their bikes from stock offerings to better serve their riding. Running smaller wheels, shorter cranks, angle sets to STEEPEN instead of slacken, downsizing frame size or for serious trickers sometimes literally double downsizing, etc etc
I've run my YT Jeffsy mullet in dual 27. It's quite fun. But not perfect. I've been looking for some older bikes/frames to make a slopeduro project out of.
I never expect someone to release a fun lightweight dual 27 ebike. Maybe the Canyon Spectral kinda works dual 27 but... Can't run short cranks right? dunno (I mean there are barely any fun dual 27 mountain bikes for adults left anyway.)
I did like the Mondraker Sly I demo'd, but kinda wish it was mullet. And their size chart is laughably weird. (think its the lightest ebike ive tried, ive not tried many. hated the Heckler SL for some reason)
I think the 2 other bikes ive looked at that fit the bill kind of are the new bottle rocket although too heavy, and the zink vacay. Bit heavy but looks like a fun poppy short chain stay bike. Other good options maybe a pivot mach 6 although super boost. I wish i got the small mainly for a little shorter chainstay. Around 440 feels good to me. 450 is a little long. Kind of want to try even shorter but dont want to sell my FW. My old bike was a stumpy evo. Around 445 reach. Going up to 460 feels a bit big. Hoping the angleset helps with that some.
Also those arnt ebikes. Dual 27.5 ebike is really a tough one now. Would definitely be voiding a frame warranty. Im surprised im not. I reached out and asked and they said it wont void the warranty and ill be the first person trying to set it up full 27.5 and asked me to let them know how it goes
id love to see that FW in 275 when you do it. post a bike check. ez bike of the day!
I definitely will. Its quite the build. Not sure if this will feel weird or not but im running a reserve alloy wheel on the rear and they didnt have 27.5 in stock. I found a reserve 30 carbon on jenson thats probably a 2021 model. For like 250$. Couldnt pass that up.
For sure.
I've got a variety of bikes from dh units to 5010's.
Honestly, they're all fun at some point. The more capable units (e-bike or not), you're simply going faster and trying harder when the fun starts... and the threshold is higher before it stops being fun. A 27.5 wheeled 5010 is decidedly not fun in a place like sunpeaks where you're trying to keep up to your buddies on a double black tech line, and they're on modern dh bikes. And a 50 pound e bike is pretty lame on rolling terrain, shallower descents, and the local pump track.
My buddy has a transition relay (sl ebike) that I've tried back to back with my old spire. Pretty much the same bike in terms of setup and tires. Not much difference between them other than the relay had more rattles from the goofy battery cover.
My Relay feels exactly like my We Are One arrival and better than my yeti 150. But with the power to make climbs very easy.
And it doesn’t rattle after a couple pieces of foam, on the wire harness. Cover makes no noise.
I did put my third motor in it today tho.
This is second hand feedback but, I had a buddy who is a very solid rider owned a kenevo SL expert for a couple years. He has had a full power / weight e bike before and since the kenevo. He still says that kenevo SL was the best e bike he's ridden by far. Weight was perfect so that you could still play around but had a bit of that ebike heft that kept it planted. Only reason he sold it was he paid way too much for it and was afraid to crash it every time he rode. Found someone to buy it and was able to get most of his investment back out.
I had one too.
Felt like a yeti mte/relay with way less power, less range, and worse geo. The couple pounds difference was not noticeable and certainly didn't make up for the kenevo's longish list of shortcomings. It's a pity specialized essentially abandoned that model, it was ahead of it's time 6 years ago. I'd love to see a modern take on it with a tq60 motor, 580wh battery, and modern geo. Essentially a next gen relay.
It seems strange to me that manufacturers are really struggling to achieve that.
How have people liked the TQ motor? It's the one motor I haven't been able to try (well DJI now, too) even though it's arguably the most intriguing motor to me, being much smaller/lighter and having higher potential for universal mounting and backwards compatibility for long term ownership.
Think the inherent issue is it's still only being run as a lightweight platform and there are what like a few large battery models. MTE, one Propain, and a couple Treks? Or somethin.
Wouldn't mind that Propain at the current sale price, but can't even begin to think about that with the current economy.
The new HP60 is the best SL motor out now for those that want a natural riding experience. Great efficiency, quiet, etc.
Yea, I feel like Auto on the Levo 4 is pretty close to the Bosch's eMTB mode. I like it as well and I tend to stick with it on most of my ride.
With the range extender at auto, I was able to get 54 miles with over 7,000 of elev gained on predominantly auto.
So it's interesting to see battery consumption between Trail and Auto from your test. Good to know.
Have you tried the Trek Slash+? I have one now and was surprised how balanced it is all round, incredible downhill but still poppy and playful when you want it to be. Haven't ridden the kenevo much, main issue that I had with it was the seatpost insertion was trash, the Slash+ just gives me so much more room to work in comparison. Have a mate with a MTE and he loves it, gets much better range out of it than I do with my HPR50.
I'm starting to feel like a try hard, but yes, I had one for a week.
Good suspension tune.
Kinematics were suspicious. Wanted an ochain for square edged stuff, surprising amount of chain tugging going on compared to other high pivots. Felt great at speed though.
I liked it on steeper bike park stuff where there was good traction and/or supported corners, less so on looser terrain with fast off camber corners. Chalk that up to the short chainstays, though it was better than expected due to the lengthening of the rear end under compression, I presume. I'm firmly of the opinion that any aggressive geo, size large bike with shorter than 450mm chainstays isn't going to excel in those situations. It was still good, on a global scale, but not as good as others. But better than expected after looking at the geo chart and noting the relatively tiny 434mm chainstay number.
Found the 50 to be pretty under-gunned for hauling the slash uphill, hard to keep up with even other mid powers. I wouldn't care if I was by myself. Tech climbing was more difficult with the low power and suspension characteristics.
Yeti would have made something I'd actually buy if they'd used the hpr60 and 580wh battery in the LTE. That would be the bike to have.
Actually know a guy with the analog slash who had the same notes about the chain tugging and he ended up selling it. Personally haven't noticed any issues around that, at least in comparison to my previous bikes.
My frame of reference isn't as broad as yours as the only other E-bike I had spent significant time on was the Fuel EX-e and the Slash+ has been a big upgrade from that for my riding, mostly in that it's actually holding up and not wearing the suspension out anywhere near as quickly as I was with the EX-e.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/mountain-bikes/electric-mountain-bikes/slash/f/F347/slash%252b-9-7/57406/?colorCode=green_black
They do actually sell the Slash+ with the HPR60 now, if my motor goes out wouldn't be that disappointing...
The 60 certainly makes it more attractive.
Okay... I want to talk about the absolutely insane prices charged for e-bike range extenders*.
For the purposes of this rant I'll be using true blue dinky-di Aussie dollars. The range extender featured in the video is a 280 Wh unit and is currently listed at $950, or $3.40/Wh, while the SL range extender is even worse at $700 for 160 Wh or $4.40/Wh. Trek wants $900 for its 160 Wh TQ unit ($5.60/Wh...)
I can go to any consumer electronics retailer and walk out with a brand name 165 Wh power bank for $180 or... you get the idea.
* Do not get me started on OEM batteries for Canon interchangeable lens cameras.
You'll likely be able to buy a Semi- Solid state battery range extender inside of 18 months as these batteries are going into production bikes right now, with 2x the energy density. I actually think this is why Bosch RE's have been on sale and seem to out of stock at times.
This is the first ever semi-solid-state battery on a production e-bike
I love the new Trek Slash-E but the issue is that it weighs the same as most full powers and it's deserving of hard-hitting suspension and tires. The SL's are hard to justify at the moment from a weight perspective, although my own XL Relay with dual coil suspension is 44.1#s ready to ride at the moment (rear tire is too light).
they won’t have double the energy density of today‘s best batteries. as i told you on the other forum, multiple times. why are you still parroting this false information?
What's even worse is that in many cases if you look the weights of the extenders for the energy provided, it seems like they might have older generation batteries inside.
The value proposition of extenders has always been silly: pay almost as much as a second battery, remove the ability to have a water bottle, add loads of weight and maybe you'll get to ride an extra 30 minutes...
For solid and semi-solid state batteries, looking forward to them also, but as Sethimus says, there is a ton of misleading information out there. E.g. https://ebike-mtb.com/en/semi-solid-state-battery-e-bike/ here we see that the cells themselves have 360Wh/kg written on them, a frequently referenced energy density value. But later on in the table of comparison they show the weight of the battery pack: 245Wh/kg, which is barely above what some bikes are managing to package today (BH and Orbea).
It's "graphene" all over again 😁
That went from science to marketing real quick, and has never been produced outside a laboratory. Solid state has been just around the corner for over 30 years, seems unlikely to be tomorrow. But someone will attempt to use it in a marketing sense. Semi solid state sounds suspiciously like lithium polymer.
There's enough history to know that battery progress has been incremental on a predictable curve, and will continue to be so. Increases in energy density of premium cells are in the range of 5-8% per year. So wait 5 years and you can knock 30% off the weight of your battery.
I've followed battery tech for way too long, and the hype of some breakthrough has a been a constant. The true breakthroughs are quiet and what brings us those steady 5-8% gains.
okay unabomber, you are hereby barred from any battery purchase with tech newer than five years old.
watch us disappear over the hills on our mini-nuke SLs while you wonder which of your 18650s is going bad!
Those increases may have been what has trickled down to consumer markets through what are primarily manufacturing tweaks, but the base material science has remained unchanged for quite some time. It is unlikely to continue to improve at a steady rate. The prevalence of e-applications has more to do with advances in drive tech and the associated controls than accumulator advancements.
I think emtb full power weights are pretty close to where i want them with a 600w battery. Bosch are quite good at power management as were past levos(not sure about the current spesh). They seem to go 40%ish farther than shimano.
I think low 40's lbs is perfect. I can still throw the bike around and the bike isnt twitchy at speed. I can of like the idea of the new levo w the cascade link and a boxxer and run it with just the extender at the park and frame battery everywhere else. Im guessing its under 45 with just the extender?
With coil, 180 fork, dh casing tires and 220 rotored saints, al bars/rims my decoy is 55lbs. After my first e8000 motor s the bed i bought a commencal meta 29 and melleted it w dual offset bushings , 180 fork , and dh tires and it was 38lbs. Long, low and what should be stable felt super twitch in the park coming off the decoy. It took a few days of switching back to back to start to really enjoy the meta. Eventually i could adapt intuitively but i think , for me, the goldilocks weight is somewhere around 45lbs. Full power long travel bosch bikes w 600w batteries are 47-49. Thats pretty close and ythe downtube w a 600w should work well with a triple clamp
Solid state and semi-solid-state batteries are entering mass production in vehicles as we speak in Asia. As in they are selling them to consumers now. MB plans for full on production next year.
In EV cars, eh, whatever. But there are two groups that will happily pay $1K to save a kilo, military drones and e-bikes. A bit further down I'd say electric e-MX bikes.
So, it's not that I have some inside info or anything, I just think a bunch of middle-aged geeks trying to relive their youth by wobbling around in a dirt field, are the most likely group to pay top dollar for this tech.
As far as what percent improvement in energy density we'll see, well that depends, I guess. But 500w/ kg is the expected density for SS & I believe 350w/ kg for semi-SS. Those are substantial improvements over, what about 210w/ kg currently?
My 2023 bike has gotten a 12% increase in battery energy density since I bought it.
Could it tow another rider who is putting in effort without overheating or would that be a problem?
wrong motor if that is your use case
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