At the end of the day, geometry is going to come down to riding style and personal preferences..
Nobody’s buying a modern trail or enduro bike with a 66° head tube angle anymore. We need to stop pretending geometry is just “personal preference.” As the sport evolves, we learn what works — and some setups are objectively outdated. 26" wheels are dead. Steep head tube angles are dead. The list goes on.
Designing every frame size with the same 435mm chainstay is a cost-cutting move, plain and simple. Anyone who actually understands bike dynamics knows how critical chainstay length is to ride feel — and it makes zero sense for a size Small and a size XL to share the same rear-center, just like they don’t share the same reach or stack.
Evil will still sell bikes, sure, but this is clearly a risk/reward gamble. They’re betting most buyers won’t notice or care enough about size-specific chainstays to affect sales. I’m not convinced that’ll hold true long-term — this could end up being a costly miscalculation. Time will tell.
At the end of the day, geometry is going to come down to riding style and personal preferences..
Exactly. This Long/Short CS debate is pointless. They all can be ridden just fine with modern bike geo. it al comes down to your riding style and how you want the bike to ride.
What are you going on about? A bike is only useful for a region because of some made up ratio keyboard warriors use to justify their...
What are you going on about? A bike is only useful for a region because of some made up ratio keyboard warriors use to justify their geo. Been riding EVILS for years, all over Europe , US, Canada, South America. They ride amazing everywhere. If you actually learn how to ride a bike with a short chain stay, your mystical golden ratio of bike useability is a crock of nonsense. That's coming from someone who has ridden 1.7-1.93's. You can ride the rubber off all of them, they just require different rider inputs to maximize the handling characteristics. Full stop, PERIOD
Sure, you can ride anything, I've had a great variety of bikes as well. I think everyone knows how to ride a short chainstay bike, elbows up, aggressively low, drive through your shoulders/hips in corners. The traditional riding position and technique. If that works best for you, play on.
And you are correct that a f/r ratio is only one part of the puzzle, the rest of the geo fills out the picture. But it is a strong indicator.
Nobody’s buying a modern trail or enduro bike with a 66° head tube angle anymore. We need to stop pretending geometry is just “personal preference.” As...
Nobody’s buying a modern trail or enduro bike with a 66° head tube angle anymore. We need to stop pretending geometry is just “personal preference.” As the sport evolves, we learn what works — and some setups are objectively outdated. 26" wheels are dead. Steep head tube angles are dead. The list goes on.
Designing every frame size with the same 435mm chainstay is a cost-cutting move, plain and simple. Anyone who actually understands bike dynamics knows how critical chainstay length is to ride feel — and it makes zero sense for a size Small and a size XL to share the same rear-center, just like they don’t share the same reach or stack.
Evil will still sell bikes, sure, but this is clearly a risk/reward gamble. They’re betting most buyers won’t notice or care enough about size-specific chainstays to affect sales. I’m not convinced that’ll hold true long-term — this could end up being a costly miscalculation. Time will tell.
I think at the end of the day, most people don't nerd out on all these numbers like we are...
Exactly. This Long/Short CS debate is pointless. They all can be ridden just fine with modern bike geo. it al comes down to your riding style...
Exactly. This Long/Short CS debate is pointless. They all can be ridden just fine with modern bike geo. it al comes down to your riding style and how you want the bike to ride.
I agree.. I'm more leaning towards longer stays based on how some bikes felt for me.. I looked back at the geometry of bikes that gave me the front end grip I like to have found 440mm is a good start for me. I would like to try a bit more to see if it's better. I can ride my current bike with shorter stays just fine, but I've found the bikes I've been on with longer stays were where I was more comfortable once I really started to deep dive into it..
Most modern brands are offering size specific chainstays on their trail bikes:
Pivot, Yeti, Specialized, Transition, Santa Cruz, Ibis
At least on chainstay length, the market says otherwise.
Companies offer it, but does that mean it's something that is important to most riders or just more of a unique selling point?
Granted, a lot of high end buyers who have been riding a while have usually figured out what they like and will buy accordingly. For me personally, the short stays on the Evil would be a turn off.. But, for others, it's what they like and want. I would like to try one just because I haven't ridden a Delta rear suspension bike...
Let’s settle down. We are mostly bike nerds on this forum so it’s easy to get in the weeds of a specific detail or measurement of a bike then project our own preferences as the best. I own several bikes with chainstays from 415mm to 445mm and they all ride great in different ways. While we may know every last detail of our personal bikes, I guarantee that 90% of guys riding on my local trails have no clue what their favorite chainstay length is, let alone what the length is on their current bike.
Let’s settle down. We are mostly bike nerds on this forum so it’s easy to get in the weeds of a specific detail or measurement of...
Let’s settle down. We are mostly bike nerds on this forum so it’s easy to get in the weeds of a specific detail or measurement of a bike then project our own preferences as the best. I own several bikes with chainstays from 415mm to 445mm and they all ride great in different ways. While we may know every last detail of our personal bikes, I guarantee that 90% of guys riding on my local trails have no clue what their favorite chainstay length is, let alone what the length is on their current bike.
Who’s upset? Just because a lot of riders don’t know what chainstay length they prefer doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a big difference in ride feel.
Size-specific chainstays are expensive, sure—but it’s interesting that most brands now think it’s worth the cost, while Evil doesn’t. Based on my own riding experience, I believe Evil is wrong here. A size XL shouldn’t share the same chainstay length as a size small. It’s disappointing, because I like a lot about Evil’s bikes overall, but uniform chainstays are a dealbreaker. I ride a large and haven’t ridden a 435 mm CS since 2019, and much prefer something longer so I can have a more upright riding position.
If we can’t disagree or share opinions, what’s the point of a forum? 🙃
This forum apparently does not have enough topics about chainstays/geo, yet. 🙄
Every topic is just one nudge away from a chainstay debate. Not to beat the dead horse here... but I see it both ways. I'm currently riding bikes with 450+ chainstays paired with ~500mm reaches. That being said, I had a megatower 1 with a 495 reach and 435/445 chainstays with a flipchip adjustment. I actually preferred the 435mm chainstays in certain situations and riding areas. Pheonix, Tucson, Santacruz and steeps in laguna, the 435mm setting was pretty rad. Go to the bike park, or race enduros, the 445m stays were the answer.
I think we all need to embrace the fact that bikes are designed on trails near the brands home office and that the design, is likely a reflection of the terrain, the people that work there and the local mtb culture. Pivot bikes ride like they were designed in pheonix. Santacruz bikes ride like they were designed in santacruz and evil bikes ride like they were designed in bellingham.
There are plenty of universally generic bikes that are designed for universally generic riding. And yes, we are collectively narrowing down into widely accepted geometry. I'm still all for bikes that buck those trends and reflect the culture/area that they were designed in.
I digress... I don't think it's outlandish for this bike to have chainstays that are defined as "too short" in the current meta. Now, (hopefully this isn't foreshadowing and I have to wince at these words) I'd feel a bit different if this were the revision to the wreckoning and we were looking at chainstays under 440mm for a L/XL. When I look at this bike, I don't have a ride fantasy of ultimate traction and speed... I have a ride fantasy of questionable life choices and all ranges of speed.
Every topic is just one nudge away from a chainstay debate. Not to beat the dead horse here... but I see it both ways. I'm currently...
Every topic is just one nudge away from a chainstay debate. Not to beat the dead horse here... but I see it both ways. I'm currently riding bikes with 450+ chainstays paired with ~500mm reaches. That being said, I had a megatower 1 with a 495 reach and 435/445 chainstays with a flipchip adjustment. I actually preferred the 435mm chainstays in certain situations and riding areas. Pheonix, Tucson, Santacruz and steeps in laguna, the 435mm setting was pretty rad. Go to the bike park, or race enduros, the 445m stays were the answer.
I think we all need to embrace the fact that bikes are designed on trails near the brands home office and that the design, is likely a reflection of the terrain, the people that work there and the local mtb culture. Pivot bikes ride like they were designed in pheonix. Santacruz bikes ride like they were designed in santacruz and evil bikes ride like they were designed in bellingham.
There are plenty of universally generic bikes that are designed for universally generic riding. And yes, we are collectively narrowing down into widely accepted geometry. I'm still all for bikes that buck those trends and reflect the culture/area that they were designed in.
I digress... I don't think it's outlandish for this bike to have chainstays that are defined as "too short" in the current meta. Now, (hopefully this isn't foreshadowing and I have to wince at these words) I'd feel a bit different if this were the revision to the wreckoning and we were looking at chainstays under 440mm for a L/XL. When I look at this bike, I don't have a ride fantasy of ultimate traction and speed... I have a ride fantasy of questionable life choices and all ranges of speed.
But seriously, are size-specific chainstays even a debate at this point? I get wanting a “short” chainstay, but shouldn’t it be proportionally short for each frame size?
A 435 mm chainstay paired with a 440 mm reach versus a 500 mm reach is going to feel completely different.
It’s funny—people who swear by “short chainstays” seem to also defend a 435 mm across all sizes. That’s basically saying chainstay length doesn’t matter. And let’s be honest, 435 isn’t short on a size small.
BB relation to Rear axle during travel is the key here - not static measurements. Slash gen 6 is a perfect example of this.. its short but also long.
Pivot placement and Suspension Geometry play a more important role than "JuSt MaKe LoNgEr ChAiNsTaYs" Hence why this fad has not caught on - This is also hard to Get a balace but We as Bike riders dont just stand there and stay stiff, We move around and manipulate the bike, moving the weight...
No doubt all the non engineer's will disagree again But ill let their 5 brain cells battle it out.
The frame / manufacturer doesn't matter, the discussions are all the same all the time - long vs short vs riding style vs size vs wheelbase vs travel. Pick your topic and be a dick about chain stains in it.
$4k frames in 2025: Are you comfortable being DOA?
That does feel a little steep for a traditional drivetrain frameset, but then again.. pricing is all tarrific these days 🙄. I’m sure if there were no tariff war, these would be a lot less expensive.
That does feel a little steep for a traditional drivetrain frameset, but then again.. pricing is all tarrific these days 🙄. I’m sure if there were...
That does feel a little steep for a traditional drivetrain frameset, but then again.. pricing is all tarrific these days 🙄. I’m sure if there were no tariff war, these would be a lot less expensive.
now compare that to the upcoming velduro rogue, they are selling frame, avinox motor and battery for literally the same price 🤫
Today Evil launches the new Offering and they join us here to answer all your questions!Fire your queries to the Evil Bikes crew below.New...
Today Evil launches the new Offering and they join us here to answer all your questions!
Fire your queries to the Evil Bikes crew below.
New Offering Highlights
YOU WIN - IT'S NOT SUPERBOOST! (more on that below)
29-inch wheels
151mm travel, up 10mm from previous
Latest generation of DELTA + Geometry + Kinematics
Three different fork lengths - 160mm optimized but can run 150 or 170mm forks
Two Rip Chip positions (High/Low) to get:
Head Tube Angle Range of 63.5 deg to 65.2 deg.
Seat Tube Angle Range of 77.9 deg to 79.3 deg
Only requires removal and loosening of two bolts to change chip positions
Geometry compared to previous Offering
0.5 deg slacker HT angle – 64.7 to 64.2 degrees
5mm longer Chain Stay
20mm longer front center
2 degree steeper ST Angle – 77 deg to 79 deg
Virtual Top tube lost 33mm (size LG)
Reach is nearly identical
Boost 148 Rear Spacing with 55mm Chain Line
Boost Mode. The dust has settled, and the market has spoken. Evil-0, Industry-1. We’re back to Boost, baby! We’ve enlisted a Boost 148mm rear hub with 55mm chain line to maximize compatibility and provide a smoother, more compliant ride.
Reason for the change
Super Boost 56.5mm chain line allowed Evil to gain significant tire clearance as compared to an old style 52mm chain line.
Old style 52mm chain line combined with boost 148 rear end caused chain to skate down the cassette at even a slight hint of a back pedal from the rider. 56.5mm chain line and 157 Super Boost Rear end fixed this inherent boost chain line drivetrain performance issue.
New chain line standard is 55mm which allows for all the tire clearance we need.
New generation drivetrain designs are based off the 55mm chain line which vastly improves drivetrain performance
Hardware
Large main pivot, all other pivots forward of the seat tube result in minimal flex at each pivot
Longer lasting pivot bearings
8x30 lower shock hardware and longer lower shock bolt with a deeper broach
6mm fastener Trunnion bolts
Linkage bolts go from hollow to solid
Rear Axle
Lighter weight
6mm fastener head for added durability
174mm x 12mm size, 1.0 Thread Pitch
Frame Details
Cleaner silhouette, smoother cable routing
Lunchbox downtube storage with waterproof bag
Water bottle mount
Piggyback shock compatible
One piece rear triangle with significant rear-to-front triangle overlap
Updated sag indicator
New DELTA Links and Bone Links
Inside voice protection package
Side mount seat collar split
What didn’t change?
Bearing size
Main Pivot width
Main Pivot Spacers
Lower shock bolt expanding collet
Headset Spec – It is still angle headset compatible, though we believe the Head Tube is slack enough to not warrant use of an angle headset
Seat Collar 34.9mm collar for 30.9mm seat post diameter
Seat Post Diameter – 30.9mm
Carbon Internal guide tubes for super easy housing routing through the frame
2-Bolt ISCG Chain Guide and Bash Guard Tabs
73mm Threaded BSA Bottom Bracket
180mm Post Mount Rear Brake Mount
UDH Rear Hanger and Transmission Rear Derailleur compatible
Geometry Chart with 160 or 170mm fork
Build Options & Pricing
The Offering can be purchased as a frame-only or in a variety of build combos with RockShox suspension, SRAM drivetrains and brakes, Industry 9 wheels and Maxxis tires.
Absolutely love my V3 Following. Ditched the RS Ultimate in favor of an Ohlins ttx air. Best upgrade! Sad to hear a V4 is not in...
Absolutely love my V3 Following. Ditched the RS Ultimate in favor of an Ohlins ttx air. Best upgrade! Sad to hear a V4 is not in the works. Given the current state of the industry, totally understandable.
Love the updates on the Offering! I would have called the lunchbox ( lame.. ) “the coffin” though. Otherwise looks primo!
even with that schrader valve placement? I tried it on both my following and offering and decided it wasnt worth it. Went back to Rockshox but with some custom tuning. I also tried a cane creek coil IL on my following with one of their progressive springs but even at 190 pounds their stiffest spring has me at like 40% sag.
That does feel a little steep for a traditional drivetrain frameset, but then again.. pricing is all tarrific these days 🙄. I’m sure if there were...
That does feel a little steep for a traditional drivetrain frameset, but then again.. pricing is all tarrific these days 🙄. I’m sure if there were no tariff war, these would be a lot less expensive.
Today Evil launches the new Offering and they join us here to answer all your questions!Fire your queries to the Evil Bikes crew below.New...
Today Evil launches the new Offering and they join us here to answer all your questions!
Fire your queries to the Evil Bikes crew below.
New Offering Highlights
YOU WIN - IT'S NOT SUPERBOOST! (more on that below)
29-inch wheels
151mm travel, up 10mm from previous
Latest generation of DELTA + Geometry + Kinematics
Three different fork lengths - 160mm optimized but can run 150 or 170mm forks
Two Rip Chip positions (High/Low) to get:
Head Tube Angle Range of 63.5 deg to 65.2 deg.
Seat Tube Angle Range of 77.9 deg to 79.3 deg
Only requires removal and loosening of two bolts to change chip positions
Geometry compared to previous Offering
0.5 deg slacker HT angle – 64.7 to 64.2 degrees
5mm longer Chain Stay
20mm longer front center
2 degree steeper ST Angle – 77 deg to 79 deg
Virtual Top tube lost 33mm (size LG)
Reach is nearly identical
Boost 148 Rear Spacing with 55mm Chain Line
Boost Mode. The dust has settled, and the market has spoken. Evil-0, Industry-1. We’re back to Boost, baby! We’ve enlisted a Boost 148mm rear hub with 55mm chain line to maximize compatibility and provide a smoother, more compliant ride.
Reason for the change
Super Boost 56.5mm chain line allowed Evil to gain significant tire clearance as compared to an old style 52mm chain line.
Old style 52mm chain line combined with boost 148 rear end caused chain to skate down the cassette at even a slight hint of a back pedal from the rider. 56.5mm chain line and 157 Super Boost Rear end fixed this inherent boost chain line drivetrain performance issue.
New chain line standard is 55mm which allows for all the tire clearance we need.
New generation drivetrain designs are based off the 55mm chain line which vastly improves drivetrain performance
Hardware
Large main pivot, all other pivots forward of the seat tube result in minimal flex at each pivot
Longer lasting pivot bearings
8x30 lower shock hardware and longer lower shock bolt with a deeper broach
6mm fastener Trunnion bolts
Linkage bolts go from hollow to solid
Rear Axle
Lighter weight
6mm fastener head for added durability
174mm x 12mm size, 1.0 Thread Pitch
Frame Details
Cleaner silhouette, smoother cable routing
Lunchbox downtube storage with waterproof bag
Water bottle mount
Piggyback shock compatible
One piece rear triangle with significant rear-to-front triangle overlap
Updated sag indicator
New DELTA Links and Bone Links
Inside voice protection package
Side mount seat collar split
What didn’t change?
Bearing size
Main Pivot width
Main Pivot Spacers
Lower shock bolt expanding collet
Headset Spec – It is still angle headset compatible, though we believe the Head Tube is slack enough to not warrant use of an angle headset
Seat Collar 34.9mm collar for 30.9mm seat post diameter
Seat Post Diameter – 30.9mm
Carbon Internal guide tubes for super easy housing routing through the frame
2-Bolt ISCG Chain Guide and Bash Guard Tabs
73mm Threaded BSA Bottom Bracket
180mm Post Mount Rear Brake Mount
UDH Rear Hanger and Transmission Rear Derailleur compatible
Geometry Chart with 160 or 170mm fork
Build Options & Pricing
The Offering can be purchased as a frame-only or in a variety of build combos with RockShox suspension, SRAM drivetrains and brakes, Industry 9 wheels and Maxxis tires.
So stoked on the new updates! Incredible bike all around. As an emtb fanatic now though, I'm not sure if I can go back to giving up my extra descending time. Can you guys confirm if there will be an updated epocalypse coming at some point?
BB relation to Rear axle during travel is the key here - not static measurements. Slash gen 6 is a perfect example of this.. its short...
BB relation to Rear axle during travel is the key here - not static measurements. Slash gen 6 is a perfect example of this.. its short but also long.
Pivot placement and Suspension Geometry play a more important role than "JuSt MaKe LoNgEr ChAiNsTaYs" Hence why this fad has not caught on - This is also hard to Get a balace but We as Bike riders dont just stand there and stay stiff, We move around and manipulate the bike, moving the weight...
No doubt all the non engineer's will disagree again But ill let their 5 brain cells battle it out.
Just curious... Do you happen to know approximately how much the CS grows at the sag point on the Slash? I thought I had read 8mm somewhere before, but I can't remember.
While the rogue rides nice, really nice, frame solutions and refinement is not even comparable
i remember the „refinement“ of the undead…
and velduro will offer a second, 450mm long chainstay for the l/xl bikes shipping next year. so when a startup is able to invest in another mold, evil should easily be able to do the same on a >4k frame
i remember the „refinement“ of the undead…and velduro will offer a second, 450mm long chainstay for the l/xl bikes shipping next year. so when a startup...
i remember the „refinement“ of the undead…
and velduro will offer a second, 450mm long chainstay for the l/xl bikes shipping next year. so when a startup is able to invest in another mold, evil should easily be able to do the same on a >4k frame
Shit, quote something from this century maybe will ya?
Oh yes, I had a hans dampf that lost its knobs 7 years ago, does it tell me the Schwalbe quality in 2025?
Who’s upset? Just because a lot of riders don’t know what chainstay length they prefer doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a big difference in ride feel.Size-specific...
Who’s upset? Just because a lot of riders don’t know what chainstay length they prefer doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a big difference in ride feel.
Size-specific chainstays are expensive, sure—but it’s interesting that most brands now think it’s worth the cost, while Evil doesn’t. Based on my own riding experience, I believe Evil is wrong here. A size XL shouldn’t share the same chainstay length as a size small. It’s disappointing, because I like a lot about Evil’s bikes overall, but uniform chainstays are a dealbreaker. I ride a large and haven’t ridden a 435 mm CS since 2019, and much prefer something longer so I can have a more upright riding position.
If we can’t disagree or share opinions, what’s the point of a forum? 🙃
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with short chainstays on every size is pretty presumptuous of you. I would say Evil is just not for you. There are plenty of manufacturers that sell what you want. Conversely, many riders just want short stays period, even tall ones. I have bought 7 Evil bikes and those short stays are one of the main reasons. I prefer them even at almost 6'-2".
I have bought both L or XL bikes depending on manufacturer over the last 30 years of mountain biking and at my height, frames from manufacturers that do size specific stays result in bikes that I just don't enjoy much at all. I like 430mm stays and even the new offering 435mm stays are longer than I prefer. I have 5 mountain bikes and only one has chainstays longer than 430mm. My Transition Patrol has 440mm stays and I ended up just living it in my native Chile where all my riding is in downhill, steep and on very fast and lose terrain. Essentially I use it as a DH bike with a 180mm fork that will be likely be replaced with a 190 boxer on my next trip.
I completely understand that you want longer stays than what Evil offers at your size, but to assume that every manufacturer should design their bikes to your taste is silly. On top of that, to think that riders that like shorter stays, even tall ones, don't know what they want and should not have any options in the market is downright offensive and ultimately ignorant.
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with...
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with short chainstays on every size is pretty presumptuous of you. I would say Evil is just not for you. There are plenty of manufacturers that sell what you want. Conversely, many riders just want short stays period, even tall ones. I have bought 7 Evil bikes and those short stays are one of the main reasons. I prefer them even at almost 6'-2".
I have bought both L or XL bikes depending on manufacturer over the last 30 years of mountain biking and at my height, frames from manufacturers that do size specific stays result in bikes that I just don't enjoy much at all. I like 430mm stays and even the new offering 435mm stays are longer than I prefer. I have 5 mountain bikes and only one has chainstays longer than 430mm. My Transition Patrol has 440mm stays and I ended up just living it in my native Chile where all my riding is in downhill, steep and on very fast and lose terrain. Essentially I use it as a DH bike with a 180mm fork that will be likely be replaced with a 190 boxer on my next trip.
I completely understand that you want longer stays than what Evil offers at your size, but to assume that every manufacturer should design their bikes to your taste is silly. On top of that, to think that riders that like shorter stays, even tall ones, don't know what they want and should not have any options in the market is downright offensive and ultimately ignorant.
didn't they just say they could make different ones but don't want to spend the dough on molds because the financial situation? that's not something one would say if they are convinced every rider should ride the same sized cs...
didn't they just say they could make different ones but don't want to spend the dough on molds because the financial situation? that's not something one...
didn't they just say they could make different ones but don't want to spend the dough on molds because the financial situation? that's not something one would say if they are convinced every rider should ride the same sized cs...
Maybe it's both? I can completely understand their position that it's not worth the extra money to make more molds, but perhaps, over the years, they've heard feedback from riders and customers that they love their short chainstays. Evil doesn't have the same racing pedigree as the likes of Specialized, Yeti, Santa Cruz, etc. Maybe their goal is to make really fun bikes rather than all-out speed and stability. If every bike manufacturer made size-specific chainstays, then taller riders who like short chainstays would be out of luck. There are literally dozens of different frames that are comparable to the Offering. If shorter chainstays aren't your thing, then you have other options.
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with...
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with short chainstays on every size is pretty presumptuous of you. I would say Evil is just not for you. There are plenty of manufacturers that sell what you want. Conversely, many riders just want short stays period, even tall ones. I have bought 7 Evil bikes and those short stays are one of the main reasons. I prefer them even at almost 6'-2".
I have bought both L or XL bikes depending on manufacturer over the last 30 years of mountain biking and at my height, frames from manufacturers that do size specific stays result in bikes that I just don't enjoy much at all. I like 430mm stays and even the new offering 435mm stays are longer than I prefer. I have 5 mountain bikes and only one has chainstays longer than 430mm. My Transition Patrol has 440mm stays and I ended up just living it in my native Chile where all my riding is in downhill, steep and on very fast and lose terrain. Essentially I use it as a DH bike with a 180mm fork that will be likely be replaced with a 190 boxer on my next trip.
I completely understand that you want longer stays than what Evil offers at your size, but to assume that every manufacturer should design their bikes to your taste is silly. On top of that, to think that riders that like shorter stays, even tall ones, don't know what they want and should not have any options in the market is downright offensive and ultimately ignorant.
didn't they just say they could make different ones but don't want to spend the dough on molds because the financial situation? that's not something one...
didn't they just say they could make different ones but don't want to spend the dough on molds because the financial situation? that's not something one would say if they are convinced every rider should ride the same sized cs...
It's obviously more expensive to make different molds of different frames, but the one they choose to make is short because they like their bikes to handle a certain way. They could chose to make all the frames with 445mm, 450mm or even longer chainstays, but historically they have done them all with 430. Even on long travel bikes lie the Reckoning and Insurgent, they chose to make them with 430mm stays. The CEO himself posted on his Instagram weekly Q&A that Evil and Dave Weagle believe and design the bikes to ride on short chainstays, but acknowledge the trend is currently to go long and size specific. He also gave a technical reason related to the DELTA suspension and the kinematics of the bike and how the rear end gets longer at for the first part of the travel and then short again.
Who’s upset? Just because a lot of riders don’t know what chainstay length they prefer doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a big difference in ride feel.Size-specific...
Who’s upset? Just because a lot of riders don’t know what chainstay length they prefer doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a big difference in ride feel.
Size-specific chainstays are expensive, sure—but it’s interesting that most brands now think it’s worth the cost, while Evil doesn’t. Based on my own riding experience, I believe Evil is wrong here. A size XL shouldn’t share the same chainstay length as a size small. It’s disappointing, because I like a lot about Evil’s bikes overall, but uniform chainstays are a dealbreaker. I ride a large and haven’t ridden a 435 mm CS since 2019, and much prefer something longer so I can have a more upright riding position.
If we can’t disagree or share opinions, what’s the point of a forum? 🙃
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with...
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with short chainstays on every size is pretty presumptuous of you. I would say Evil is just not for you. There are plenty of manufacturers that sell what you want. Conversely, many riders just want short stays period, even tall ones. I have bought 7 Evil bikes and those short stays are one of the main reasons. I prefer them even at almost 6'-2".
I have bought both L or XL bikes depending on manufacturer over the last 30 years of mountain biking and at my height, frames from manufacturers that do size specific stays result in bikes that I just don't enjoy much at all. I like 430mm stays and even the new offering 435mm stays are longer than I prefer. I have 5 mountain bikes and only one has chainstays longer than 430mm. My Transition Patrol has 440mm stays and I ended up just living it in my native Chile where all my riding is in downhill, steep and on very fast and lose terrain. Essentially I use it as a DH bike with a 180mm fork that will be likely be replaced with a 190 boxer on my next trip.
I completely understand that you want longer stays than what Evil offers at your size, but to assume that every manufacturer should design their bikes to your taste is silly. On top of that, to think that riders that like shorter stays, even tall ones, don't know what they want and should not have any options in the market is downright offensive and ultimately ignorant.
You’re actually reinforcing exactly what I already said, so I’ll repeat it:
“It’s funny—people who swear by ‘short chainstays’ also defend 435 mm across all sizes. That’s basically saying chainstay length doesn’t matter. And let’s be honest, 435 isn’t short on a size small.”
You say you like short chainstays and that I’m wrong for calling Evil out—but you’re missing the point. Evil clearly doesn’t think 435 mm is the “right” short chainstay for their size Small Offering, because 435 is proportionally massive on a frame with a 440 mm reach.
It’s a cost-cutting decision, plain and simple—as Evil themselves admitted earlier in this thread. Any brand that gives the same chainstay to a Small and an XL either doesn’t care about proportional geometry or doesn’t value how it affects handling (which I completely disagree with). Nearly every modern brand—except Evil—has already recognized this.
At the end of the day, geometry is going to come down to riding style and personal preferences..
Nobody’s buying a modern trail or enduro bike with a 66° head tube angle anymore. We need to stop pretending geometry is just “personal preference.” As the sport evolves, we learn what works — and some setups are objectively outdated. 26" wheels are dead. Steep head tube angles are dead. The list goes on.
Designing every frame size with the same 435mm chainstay is a cost-cutting move, plain and simple. Anyone who actually understands bike dynamics knows how critical chainstay length is to ride feel — and it makes zero sense for a size Small and a size XL to share the same rear-center, just like they don’t share the same reach or stack.
Evil will still sell bikes, sure, but this is clearly a risk/reward gamble. They’re betting most buyers won’t notice or care enough about size-specific chainstays to affect sales. I’m not convinced that’ll hold true long-term — this could end up being a costly miscalculation. Time will tell.
Exactly. This Long/Short CS debate is pointless. They all can be ridden just fine with modern bike geo. it al comes down to your riding style and how you want the bike to ride.
Sure, you can ride anything, I've had a great variety of bikes as well. I think everyone knows how to ride a short chainstay bike, elbows up, aggressively low, drive through your shoulders/hips in corners. The traditional riding position and technique. If that works best for you, play on.
And you are correct that a f/r ratio is only one part of the puzzle, the rest of the geo fills out the picture. But it is a strong indicator.
I think at the end of the day, most people don't nerd out on all these numbers like we are...
Most modern brands are offering size specific chainstays on their trail bikes:
Pivot, Yeti, Specialized, Transition, Santa Cruz, Ibis
At least on chainstay length, the market says otherwise.
I agree.. I'm more leaning towards longer stays based on how some bikes felt for me.. I looked back at the geometry of bikes that gave me the front end grip I like to have found 440mm is a good start for me. I would like to try a bit more to see if it's better. I can ride my current bike with shorter stays just fine, but I've found the bikes I've been on with longer stays were where I was more comfortable once I really started to deep dive into it..
Companies offer it, but does that mean it's something that is important to most riders or just more of a unique selling point?
Granted, a lot of high end buyers who have been riding a while have usually figured out what they like and will buy accordingly. For me personally, the short stays on the Evil would be a turn off.. But, for others, it's what they like and want. I would like to try one just because I haven't ridden a Delta rear suspension bike...
Let’s settle down. We are mostly bike nerds on this forum so it’s easy to get in the weeds of a specific detail or measurement of a bike then project our own preferences as the best. I own several bikes with chainstays from 415mm to 445mm and they all ride great in different ways. While we may know every last detail of our personal bikes, I guarantee that 90% of guys riding on my local trails have no clue what their favorite chainstay length is, let alone what the length is on their current bike.
Who’s upset? Just because a lot of riders don’t know what chainstay length they prefer doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a big difference in ride feel.
Size-specific chainstays are expensive, sure—but it’s interesting that most brands now think it’s worth the cost, while Evil doesn’t. Based on my own riding experience, I believe Evil is wrong here. A size XL shouldn’t share the same chainstay length as a size small. It’s disappointing, because I like a lot about Evil’s bikes overall, but uniform chainstays are a dealbreaker. I ride a large and haven’t ridden a 435 mm CS since 2019, and much prefer something longer so I can have a more upright riding position.
If we can’t disagree or share opinions, what’s the point of a forum? 🙃
This forum apparently does not have enough topics about chainstays/geo, yet. 🙄
Every topic is just one nudge away from a chainstay debate. Not to beat the dead horse here... but I see it both ways. I'm currently riding bikes with 450+ chainstays paired with ~500mm reaches. That being said, I had a megatower 1 with a 495 reach and 435/445 chainstays with a flipchip adjustment. I actually preferred the 435mm chainstays in certain situations and riding areas. Pheonix, Tucson, Santacruz and steeps in laguna, the 435mm setting was pretty rad. Go to the bike park, or race enduros, the 445m stays were the answer.
I think we all need to embrace the fact that bikes are designed on trails near the brands home office and that the design, is likely a reflection of the terrain, the people that work there and the local mtb culture. Pivot bikes ride like they were designed in pheonix. Santacruz bikes ride like they were designed in santacruz and evil bikes ride like they were designed in bellingham.
There are plenty of universally generic bikes that are designed for universally generic riding. And yes, we are collectively narrowing down into widely accepted geometry. I'm still all for bikes that buck those trends and reflect the culture/area that they were designed in.
I digress... I don't think it's outlandish for this bike to have chainstays that are defined as "too short" in the current meta. Now, (hopefully this isn't foreshadowing and I have to wince at these words) I'd feel a bit different if this were the revision to the wreckoning and we were looking at chainstays under 440mm for a L/XL. When I look at this bike, I don't have a ride fantasy of ultimate traction and speed... I have a ride fantasy of questionable life choices and all ranges of speed.
But seriously, are size-specific chainstays even a debate at this point? I get wanting a “short” chainstay, but shouldn’t it be proportionally short for each frame size?
A 435 mm chainstay paired with a 440 mm reach versus a 500 mm reach is going to feel completely different.
It’s funny—people who swear by “short chainstays” seem to also defend a 435 mm across all sizes. That’s basically saying chainstay length doesn’t matter. And let’s be honest, 435 isn’t short on a size small.
BB relation to Rear axle during travel is the key here - not static measurements. Slash gen 6 is a perfect example of this.. its short but also long.
Pivot placement and Suspension Geometry play a more important role than "JuSt MaKe LoNgEr ChAiNsTaYs" Hence why this fad has not caught on - This is also hard to Get a balace but We as Bike riders dont just stand there and stay stiff, We move around and manipulate the bike, moving the weight...
No doubt all the non engineer's will disagree again But ill let their 5 brain cells battle it out.
do tell me, in which topic should we discuss the chainstay length of the new evil if not in this one?
Here you go https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/modern-geo-talk-chainstays-stack-reach-and-bitching-about-it
The frame / manufacturer doesn't matter, the discussions are all the same all the time - long vs short vs riding style vs size vs wheelbase vs travel. Pick your topic and be a dick about chain stains in it.
That does feel a little steep for a traditional drivetrain frameset, but then again.. pricing is all tarrific these days 🙄. I’m sure if there were no tariff war, these would be a lot less expensive.
now compare that to the upcoming velduro rogue, they are selling frame, avinox motor and battery for literally the same price 🤫
even with that schrader valve placement? I tried it on both my following and offering and decided it wasnt worth it. Went back to Rockshox but with some custom tuning. I also tried a cane creek coil IL on my following with one of their progressive springs but even at 190 pounds their stiffest spring has me at like 40% sag.
holy smokes. They're not shipping to USA are they?
While the rogue rides nice, really nice, frame solutions and refinement is not even comparable
So stoked on the new updates! Incredible bike all around. As an emtb fanatic now though, I'm not sure if I can go back to giving up my extra descending time. Can you guys confirm if there will be an updated epocalypse coming at some point?
Just curious... Do you happen to know approximately how much the CS grows at the sag point on the Slash? I thought I had read 8mm somewhere before, but I can't remember.
i remember the „refinement“ of the undead…
and velduro will offer a second, 450mm long chainstay for the l/xl bikes shipping next year. so when a startup is able to invest in another mold, evil should easily be able to do the same on a >4k frame
Shit, quote something from this century maybe will ya?
Oh yes, I had a hans dampf that lost its knobs 7 years ago, does it tell me the Schwalbe quality in 2025?
To assume that riders that don't want size specific stays just "don't know what they prefer" or that Evil is "wrong" because they design frames with short chainstays on every size is pretty presumptuous of you. I would say Evil is just not for you. There are plenty of manufacturers that sell what you want. Conversely, many riders just want short stays period, even tall ones. I have bought 7 Evil bikes and those short stays are one of the main reasons. I prefer them even at almost 6'-2".
I have bought both L or XL bikes depending on manufacturer over the last 30 years of mountain biking and at my height, frames from manufacturers that do size specific stays result in bikes that I just don't enjoy much at all. I like 430mm stays and even the new offering 435mm stays are longer than I prefer. I have 5 mountain bikes and only one has chainstays longer than 430mm. My Transition Patrol has 440mm stays and I ended up just living it in my native Chile where all my riding is in downhill, steep and on very fast and lose terrain. Essentially I use it as a DH bike with a 180mm fork that will be likely be replaced with a 190 boxer on my next trip.
I completely understand that you want longer stays than what Evil offers at your size, but to assume that every manufacturer should design their bikes to your taste is silly. On top of that, to think that riders that like shorter stays, even tall ones, don't know what they want and should not have any options in the market is downright offensive and ultimately ignorant.
didn't they just say they could make different ones but don't want to spend the dough on molds because the financial situation? that's not something one would say if they are convinced every rider should ride the same sized cs...
Maybe it's both? I can completely understand their position that it's not worth the extra money to make more molds, but perhaps, over the years, they've heard feedback from riders and customers that they love their short chainstays. Evil doesn't have the same racing pedigree as the likes of Specialized, Yeti, Santa Cruz, etc. Maybe their goal is to make really fun bikes rather than all-out speed and stability. If every bike manufacturer made size-specific chainstays, then taller riders who like short chainstays would be out of luck. There are literally dozens of different frames that are comparable to the Offering. If shorter chainstays aren't your thing, then you have other options.
It's obviously more expensive to make different molds of different frames, but the one they choose to make is short because they like their bikes to handle a certain way. They could chose to make all the frames with 445mm, 450mm or even longer chainstays, but historically they have done them all with 430. Even on long travel bikes lie the Reckoning and Insurgent, they chose to make them with 430mm stays. The CEO himself posted on his Instagram weekly Q&A that Evil and Dave Weagle believe and design the bikes to ride on short chainstays, but acknowledge the trend is currently to go long and size specific. He also gave a technical reason related to the DELTA suspension and the kinematics of the bike and how the rear end gets longer at for the first part of the travel and then short again.
You’re actually reinforcing exactly what I already said, so I’ll repeat it:
“It’s funny—people who swear by ‘short chainstays’ also defend 435 mm across all sizes. That’s basically saying chainstay length doesn’t matter. And let’s be honest, 435 isn’t short on a size small.”
You say you like short chainstays and that I’m wrong for calling Evil out—but you’re missing the point. Evil clearly doesn’t think 435 mm is the “right” short chainstay for their size Small Offering, because 435 is proportionally massive on a frame with a 440 mm reach.
It’s a cost-cutting decision, plain and simple—as Evil themselves admitted earlier in this thread. Any brand that gives the same chainstay to a Small and an XL either doesn’t care about proportional geometry or doesn’t value how it affects handling (which I completely disagree with). Nearly every modern brand—except Evil—has already recognized this.
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