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People who routinely service forks have seen this from Fox for years now. Floating axle or not, Fox finds a way to make the fork bind. Not surprising it has carried on to the Podium.
All the time and money spent developing an air spring with a "floating piston" only to have the chassis bind more than the air spring ever could, pretty sad.
Hey @TEAMROBOT do you still have your podium? How annoying would it be for you to try to replicate this? Schroeder and I were talking about this and he mentioned that the fork is probably constantly going in and out of alignment on the trail and questioned how much it even matters that the fork is starting in perfect alignment when there's no load. My thinking is that if your fork does bind like this but still feels as good as you say, then he's probably right.
The fork may flex during use, but if it is binding that bad unloaded it will have a negative impact on performance.
I found the PUSH 9.1 to have a tight bushing fit initially, and as such it had more feedback through the hands and was difficult to get into the last 30mm of travel. After the bushing fit was corrected, performance was noticeably improved. With all the same settings on the same trails the fork now gets within 10mm of bottom and is much better on the hands.
It would be very interesting to see if any of the Fox Podium media and "influencer" forks are like the one above.
I would be willing to check the Vital fork and provide a lower leg service with fresh seals as well. 👍
Why do Bicycle consumers continue to Support Rubbish brands/products at high cost?
Is cycling a marketing Show?
Are 'richer' older riders ruining it, especially with ebikes?
are fanboy's of old the real problem?
For pure example: Shimano Release Sram tech(Original AXS) from 2019 and the fanboys lap it up like the best thing ever... is this apple marketing at it's finest?
Side note: why are Media Products(Products given to media) basically in perfectly acceptable condition? but we cant buy that.
Can people redo that drop out test by tightening the pinch bolts incrementally instead of torquing one down completely before doing the other? I know the manual doesn't say that but its the proper way to tighten any pinch bolt system
I'm sure curious how the podium compares to something like an avalanche hybrid coil zeb, or something similar.
I have had an avy hybrid on the same bike as an rxf38m2, zeb 3.1 acs3, and fox 38 x2/secus. It was no contest, the avy hybrid was significantly better in every way. Wonder if the robot has rode anything like that ?
I'll be testing a Vorsprung Smashpot alongside an MRP Lift damper in a Zeb shortly, so I think that should be a good point of comparison. I'm also very curious.
I've never ridden any Avalanche product, but 95% of people who do seem to swear by them. I've also heard Craig is a bit of a character.
When should we be expecting the smashpot review?
That depends, how much do you value not having to deal with Avalanche?
Looking forward to that, thanks !
Ah, Craig isn’t that bad.
He is just a dude that’s lived through 30 years of marketing “experts”. It’d be hard not to become a little salty.
It’s one of the reasons I’m asking questions here about the podiums. Historically robot is pretty spot on with his reviews in my opinion.
The glowing reviews of the podiums that are out and about right now kind of mirror the fox 38 grip 2 when it was first released. And the grip 2 really kind of sucked, comparatively. So difficult to separate marketing from fact in the mtb space.
I wouldn't hold your breath. I'm just getting on the Secus this week, then the Smashpot after that, and I like to ride something for a bit before rendering judgement.
Welp, you can probably tell by my clickbait thumbnail alone, but I'm not a fan of the Podium thus far. TL;DR (or TL;DW), its different, but its not better. I also have durability issues that have occurred on two different Podiums and the performance is meh. Not bad, but certainly not worth the money.
Also, I think now is a good time for me to eat crow and go "yeah, I think the media guys did get something a little different".
Hey Jeff, loved your thoughts here. Bummer that you got not one but two duds with leaking seals that wrecked your brake pads. I'd be pissed! But I think you did a great job of enumerating the different aspects of your experience on the fork, and I especially liked the back to back run comparison with the 38 and your "thought experiment." It sounds like your experience on the fork (when it was working) has been very different than mine, but that's why I'm glad these are getting out in the wild and more people are riding them, so we can get a wider perspective. I love mine, but I'm not everybody.
I'll also be curious to hear your longer term thoughts once you get it back from warranty. A few unrelated thoughts after watching your video:
1. I am 100% going to switch the spring and damper sides when I eventually do a lowers service. I get a healthy amount of oil spray every time I mess with air pressure, and that sucks. I use a piece of paper or cardboard as a shield between my caliper and rotor, but still, that's whack.
2. Have you had a proper bottom out yet? I started riding different places and have had to add volume reducers back in, because I was getting a violent metal on metal clunk at full bottom. I had a ride in Oregon where I bottomed out maybe 6 times, and that's with 105 psi in the chamber, which is a lot more than recommended for my 194 pound self.
3. Are you measuring clicks from open or closed? I'm sure you're measuring from closed because you didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, but it seems like your HSR is really closed. I run my rebound a lot more open to keep the fork up in the travel, and I've had a lot of fun running the Podium with the HSR more open, especially on rough steep chop. YMMV
4. Lastly, you are 100% academically correct that dual crown forks are the only logical answer for very long travel enduro bikes and heavy ebikes with 29" front wheels. No argument, and if we could just bite the bullet and put a Boxxer or 38 dual crown on the front of our 165mm+ rear travel bikes we'd all be better for it. But at this point the market doesn't want that, and I think the Podium comes real close. But you're still right that a dual crown fork would be better in almost every way.
Very curious as to what Fox comes back to you with on the second fork.
Answers:
-All clickers from full closed.
-Since the recording, I have opened HSR and LSR ~3 clicks each. Usually I like a more lively setup, but I ended up pretty far in because the fork was feeling a bit unsettled in really rough terrain (like it was skipping around). Mind you, the trails around here aren't crazy steep, but are very blown out right now. I had feelings at times that the fork was not "settled", hence my attempt at fixing it with more rebound. As you all can probably tell, I have not found a setup I love.
-I have bottomed the fork, but it was a total fuck up on my behalf. In "normal riding conditions" I'm not bottoming
Thx for all the thoughts!
Can we all start pressuring manufacturers for dual crown approval on bikes with 160mm+ of travel?
Maybe we can get TEAMROBOT to start listing lack of dual crown compatibility as a negative on enduro bike reviews? 😉
I wonder if your left glove's velcro being undone and flaping in the wind is any indication of the amount of oil that spayed out of the air spring side when you adjusted your air pressure. I'd be curious to see if the right side does it after you switch the damper/air spring assemblies in the legs.
Oh wait, then the right side was undone too. Was that before or after switching damper/air spring? Then, when on the 38, both sides came undone.
So many questions left without answers!
As a guy who has had to send probably 75% of my shocks and forks for warranty service in the last 5 years. I've sent back a Cane Creek Helm MK1 once for a broken damper, two DVO Diamond D2 twice (bad bushings twice, broken spring seat), a DVO Jade shock 3 times (leaking, then no damping, then leaking again), Ohlins TTX2 air (bad factory bleed) and RXF38m.2 (sending it tomorrow after 15 hrs of riding for weird clunks and noises inside) I can relate to your experience! Being unlucky with this, I had purchased a backup RXF38 when they were 40% off. That's my technique to survive fork warranties : always have a backup fork and crown race in stock just in case.
BTW very interesting review, thanks for sharing!
Interesting. Thanks for the details.
I've settled on a lot of air pressure (well above recommendations for my weight), as few tokens as possible, a lot of compression, and very little rebound damping. This makes the fork feel like it's riding high in the travel, without being harsh on impacts. Slowing down rebound made the fork feel harsher for me than adding air or compression, although I've definitely found "too much" compression and air pressure.
Worth noting that my setup ended up being pretty similar to what I run on all my forks, which is worth mentioning. It's not like I had to do anything crazy, and the longer I tested it the more I gravitated away from the recommended settings and back to what I'd normally run on anything.
on the point 4...
my best fork to date is an Infinity EN.. dual crown enduro.. with it's flimsy 35mm stanchions still super stiff.. got it last july (2024)... serviced it a month ago...it was flawless..continues to be..
Excellent video Jeff. Sounds like people were right to be skeptical upon release after the last few years of questionable QC from Fox. I would be pretty heartbroken to drop two racks and have the experience you’ve had so far. I need another brave and competent YouTuber to take the same chance on an Infinity EN or Vaia next
This type of set up peaked my interest, mainly since I feel like I'm moving the same way with my 38 with a X2. Do you find yourself running any tokens at all then? How much (as a percentage) would you say you're running over recommended pressure.
With a year+ of damper forward setups being available with the improvements with the Charger and the Grip dampers, wonder what people are starting to land on.
I came across this retrofit 15mm axle on PB Buy/sell. Has anyone tried this? Could be a good option that is likely cheaper than swapping hubs.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/4072641/
Interesting! Just cause I'm a nerd, it would be cool to do a back-to-back with this 15mm axle and the stock 20mm steel axle and a 20mm wheel. Curious if I'd be able to notice a difference, and how noticeable it'd be.
How many different Allen keys does it take to remove the wheel?
was vital also approached to write such an article?
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/comment-fork-alignment-and-friction-in-th…
Did some quick CAD maths. Feel free to correct:
Given a 400mm stanchion height and 20mm press distance into the axle/stachion union, a 1mm offset at the non-axle end as observed means the concentricity between the base and the top of the stanchion press union is .05mm or .002". That does not included the perpendicularity between the effective stanchion press interface axis and effective axle axis (axle + threaded sleeve concentricity and size tolerances). If the concentricity is perfect then the resulting stanchion to axle axle angle to get a 1mm offset is 0.144deg.
In reality both of these tolerances are varying simultaneously. These are tight tolerances to hit as is and if the claims of 3% friction difference are true they are perfectly acceptable IMO.
The whole stanchion misalignment thing did seem more of an exercise in rage marketing. The whole thing is designed to work as a system and the person making all the noise has both financial incentive to do so and skipped installation steps because they weren't possible to prove their point.
The air spring being on the rotor side of the fork bothers me more than a 3% increase of friction vs a best case scenario.
Reading between the lines it seems to me like Jessie-May had the idea and approached Fox. It's a great idea for an article, and I wish I'd written it! I'm guessing she tore down her fork for an apples to apples comparison with the "bad alignment" videos floating around on the internet, and when she discovered it was out of alignment she said, "damn, this WOULD make a good story" and reached out for comment. I'm jealous! It's a good story.
Someone in this forum even suggested the same thing, asking if I'd be willing to tear down my Podium and check the alignment, but I didn't have time. Also, there hasn't been tech documentation from Fox for servicing yet, so I was also a little apprehensive of tearing the fork apart without being 100% certain I had all the tools, parts, oil, and torque specs to put it back together.
I love her article because it addresses one of the things I've been wondering for a while, which is how much alignment or bushing stiction on the work bench actually translates to perceivable friction on the trail. If her fork felt great and had measurable alignment and friction issues on the work bench, it's worth asking how important those measurable differences are on the trail. Not everything you can measure is significant.I'm open to two possibilities, which I think are both equally likely, and I'd be curious about the peanut galleries thoughts:
Option 1 is that it doesn't matter much and you'd be surprised how little bushing friction translates to ride feel. Bushings are specifically chosen to slide under intense friction and load, so it's possible that the friction you feel on a work bench pales in comparison to the friction fork bushings experience in heavy braking, flat landings, etc.
Option 2 is that every little bit of friction in the fork chassis is immediately perceptible on the trail. This is similar to the old adage that a fork lowers service is one of the best performance upgrades you can make, or to rumors about super ultra aligned pro forks with .01mm axle spacers for minimum friction. I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever felt a difference after a fork lowers service, but maybe my forks aren't dirty enough when I make the change?
The air spring being on the rotor side of the fork is in fact very annoying. Annoying like a paper cut, or a loud fly circling your head, because it doesn't actually matter, but it feels so wrong and annoying. And it could matter, if you don't know or forget to shield your rotor and pads and blast a bunch of float fluid onto your brake.
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