My Minion SS rear continues to impress me. Only in mud and running water does it suffer, but my goodness... I finally got to ride some...
My Minion SS rear continues to impress me. Only in mud and running water does it suffer, but my goodness... I finally got to ride some of the tougher trails and climbs around me and it was great. Speedy in straights and gripped corners very well. I wonder why they didn't make one with a tougher casing.
Have you tried a 2.6 Slaughter, yet? Goldilocks for trail riding for me in most riding conditions outside of total slop.
I am looking at a Slaughter/Butcher combo or Kenda Helldiver/Hellkat combo. Can't decide, but at least Kenda offers theirs in three casings. How would you describe the Slaughter casing?
I wish there were more semi-slick options available nowadays. I feel like tire companies only stopped making them because they weren't selling, not because they don't...
I wish there were more semi-slick options available nowadays. I feel like tire companies only stopped making them because they weren't selling, not because they don't perform well for their intended use case.
To that point, what semi-slicks are even still in production?
We didn't sell the Minion SS in large quantities, unfortunately. More than anything it became an option for our athletes to use in highly specific disciplines...
We didn't sell the Minion SS in large quantities, unfortunately. More than anything it became an option for our athletes to use in highly specific disciplines (slalom) or conditions. I saw plenty of comments along the lines of "why would I buy a pre-worn out tire?"
The sizing was also a little funky on that tread since it came out just before rims went super wide. The 2.30" had a good profile but obviously low volume, while the 2.50" was too squared off and more voluminous than most riders needed. I could see a place for a refreshed 2.40" version sized around a 30mm internal rim with a tough casing. Seems like a great option for peak summer bike park conditions or for e-bike use.
Yes, a bit of extra width on a wider rim may make it better, but I am running a 25 width rim and keeping the pressure sort of low on the Minion SS. I am riding a mix of natural trails and hardpack. I can feel the casing squirm a little and it has burped on slow speed off-camber roots.
I wish there were more semi-slick options available nowadays. I feel like tire companies only stopped making them because they weren't selling, not because they don't...
I wish there were more semi-slick options available nowadays. I feel like tire companies only stopped making them because they weren't selling, not because they don't perform well for their intended use case.
To that point, what semi-slicks are even still in production?
We didn't sell the Minion SS in large quantities, unfortunately. More than anything it became an option for our athletes to use in highly specific disciplines...
We didn't sell the Minion SS in large quantities, unfortunately. More than anything it became an option for our athletes to use in highly specific disciplines (slalom) or conditions. I saw plenty of comments along the lines of "why would I buy a pre-worn out tire?"
The sizing was also a little funky on that tread since it came out just before rims went super wide. The 2.30" had a good profile but obviously low volume, while the 2.50" was too squared off and more voluminous than most riders needed. I could see a place for a refreshed 2.40" version sized around a 30mm internal rim with a tough casing. Seems like a great option for peak summer bike park conditions or for e-bike use.
I'd 100% buy a Minion SS in something like this format, tough casing and proper 2.4 to 2.5 width. Probably somewhere between DD and DH casing perhaps? The OG Rock Razor Supergravity was the benchmark - I'd say the Kenda Helldiver is not far behind but maybe slightly bigger side knobs would be good.
I was an assegai front aggressor back dude for years, but something happened with the DD aggressor where punctures were too common, not even the big bacon bits could save them. Went back to a DD DH-R and all is well again.
I liked the aggressor as it lasted forever and was fast rolling, but as above the side knobs were decorative lol.
I was an assegai front aggressor back dude for years, but something happened with the DD aggressor where punctures were too common, not even the big...
I was an assegai front aggressor back dude for years, but something happened with the DD aggressor where punctures were too common, not even the big bacon bits could save them. Went back to a DD DH-R and all is well again.
I liked the aggressor as it lasted forever and was fast rolling, but as above the side knobs were decorative lol.
The aggressor is an odd tire - it might have worked better if they offered it in softer rubber but the cornering and braking traction kinda sucks for how slow it rolls (yes it's faster than a DHR but not by that much). It feels like the dissector is the tire they were trying to make when they designed the aggressor, though it has it's own issues. I used to run semi-slicks (rock razor was my favorite) but I think the introduction and refinement of in-betweener tires (Rekon / Forekaster 2, Syerra / Martello, ground control / Eliminator) give you fast rolling options that still grip pretty well when leaned over which was always needed with semi-slicks. But if I go back in time 10 years to 2015 when the Maxxis options are an ardent or minion SS then I'm picking the SS every time. I never used semi-slicks for proper DH riding where beefy casings were necessary - I never felt like rolling speed is what holding me back from going faster / having more fun.
My Minion SS rear continues to impress me. Only in mud and running water does it suffer, but my goodness... I finally got to ride some...
My Minion SS rear continues to impress me. Only in mud and running water does it suffer, but my goodness... I finally got to ride some of the tougher trails and climbs around me and it was great. Speedy in straights and gripped corners very well. I wonder why they didn't make one with a tougher casing.
I am looking at a Slaughter/Butcher combo or Kenda Helldiver/Hellkat combo. Can't decide, but at least Kenda offers theirs in three casings. How would you describe...
I am looking at a Slaughter/Butcher combo or Kenda Helldiver/Hellkat combo. Can't decide, but at least Kenda offers theirs in three casings. How would you describe the Slaughter casing?
The Grid trail casing is perfectly adequate for my spirited trail riding on trails with lots of ups and downs and roots and rocks. Unlike older Spesh tires with the Grid casing or anything Maxxis thinner than DD, I never pinch flatted those. Good support and not too stiff @ 23-25PSI. Gravity tires those aren't though.
I am looking at a Slaughter/Butcher combo or Kenda Helldiver/Hellkat combo. Can't decide, but at least Kenda offers theirs in three casings. How would you describe...
I am looking at a Slaughter/Butcher combo or Kenda Helldiver/Hellkat combo. Can't decide, but at least Kenda offers theirs in three casings. How would you describe the Slaughter casing?
The Grid trail casing is perfectly adequate for my spirited trail riding on trails with lots of ups and downs and roots and rocks. Unlike older...
The Grid trail casing is perfectly adequate for my spirited trail riding on trails with lots of ups and downs and roots and rocks. Unlike older Spesh tires with the Grid casing or anything Maxxis thinner than DD, I never pinch flatted those. Good support and not too stiff @ 23-25PSI. Gravity tires those aren't though.
Xynotal Enduro casing > Aggressor DD. The Xynotal continues to blow me away with how versatile a pretty good rolling tire can be. I've done a 40mi XCM race on a DH casing one and even ridden it in the snow with good results. Only thing that could pry it from my rim is a radial Hans Dampf.
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but forgot if it was Poland or Loudenville.
I have brand new design Butchers and Cannibals on my workbench and they are very, very similar. Anyone heard chatter on updated DH Spec tires in the works? Specialized likes to prune and update their tread pattern lineup more regularly compared to other brands. Cannibals still not listed on their Canada website - they going away or getting update??
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but...
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but forgot if it was Poland or Loudenville.
I have brand new design Butchers and Cannibals on my workbench and they are very, very similar. Anyone heard chatter on updated DH Spec tires in the works? Specialized likes to prune and update their tread pattern lineup more regularly compared to other brands. Cannibals still not listed on their Canada website - they going away or getting update??
Specialized just updated the butcher a few months ago along with the eliminator. My guess is cannibal is next. I’ve rode the previous eliminator/ butcher and was quite happy with them. The updated versions seem to improve them even more. The cannibal is a very underrated tire that I rode all winter but didn’t quite have the braking bite I was expecting. but made up with more than expected in rolling speed. If you’re a “heavier rider” (190+lbs), you’ll like the specialized gravity casing.
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but...
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but forgot if it was Poland or Loudenville.
I have brand new design Butchers and Cannibals on my workbench and they are very, very similar. Anyone heard chatter on updated DH Spec tires in the works? Specialized likes to prune and update their tread pattern lineup more regularly compared to other brands. Cannibals still not listed on their Canada website - they going away or getting update??
Specialized just updated the butcher a few months ago along with the eliminator. My guess is cannibal is next. I’ve rode the previous eliminator/ butcher and...
Specialized just updated the butcher a few months ago along with the eliminator. My guess is cannibal is next. I’ve rode the previous eliminator/ butcher and was quite happy with them. The updated versions seem to improve them even more. The cannibal is a very underrated tire that I rode all winter but didn’t quite have the braking bite I was expecting. but made up with more than expected in rolling speed. If you’re a “heavier rider” (190+lbs), you’ll like the specialized gravity casing.
I am over 190lbs kitted up and nothing is better than Specialized tires for the price, so always watching new developments closely on their side. Gravity casing has always been my choice on the rear, and I've never flatted a Grid Trail on the front. All the new pattern Butchers and Eliminators I've picked up are gravity casing, and I'm trying to wear out my current old Butcher/Eliminator combo to get the new ones on the bike.
I wish they had a few more choices of casing + compound pattern, but I understand a big part of that is the cost game and keeping # SKUs down.
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but...
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but forgot if it was Poland or Loudenville.
I have brand new design Butchers and Cannibals on my workbench and they are very, very similar. Anyone heard chatter on updated DH Spec tires in the works? Specialized likes to prune and update their tread pattern lineup more regularly compared to other brands. Cannibals still not listed on their Canada website - they going away or getting update??
They have been racing on prototype cannibals for a few seasons now. From what I have been told its just small tweaks to the casing as well as the compound. They, like Schwalbe have a, cold weather specific T9 compound, I wouldn't be surprised if they have some other FRO single run compounds as well.
I'm a little over a month in on the new Butchers, I have them at the top of my favorite tire pile now for Nor-cal conditions. Seriously debating on keeping them on for racing this summer. The only thing that I have noticed is that the butcher in the rear has a tendency to break loose when pushing the tire into the apex of a berm, not in a bad way though! It's like a quick slide that I can recover just by releasing some brake lever pressure, only happens on catch berms on flatter corners when the bike is leaned over. Might also be a result of pushing the bike harder since I still havent found the limit of grip on the front yet.
Hi tirechat. Im looking for tires for the bike park. I only get to the bike park a few times a year, so i take my trail bike. I have a spare wheelset and want to put some tires on there. Im on the east coast, im a wheels close to the ground most of the time type rider, and im pretty light (150 with gear). Assegai's i suppose are like the default choice. i also have heard such good things about the conti tires, but ive also heard that the casings are super stiff, perhaps too much so for a lighter guy? and then the new schwalbe radials are very interesting too, and thats a choice between MM and the albert i think. The HR3 and tacky chan i have heard take alot of commitment, probably more than i have. idk. Im overthinking it and having decision paralysis i think.
Hi tirechat. Im looking for tires for the bike park. I only get to the bike park a few times a year, so i take my...
Hi tirechat. Im looking for tires for the bike park. I only get to the bike park a few times a year, so i take my trail bike. I have a spare wheelset and want to put some tires on there. Im on the east coast, im a wheels close to the ground most of the time type rider, and im pretty light (150 with gear). Assegai's i suppose are like the default choice. i also have heard such good things about the conti tires, but ive also heard that the casings are super stiff, perhaps too much so for a lighter guy? and then the new schwalbe radials are very interesting too, and thats a choice between MM and the albert i think. The HR3 and tacky chan i have heard take alot of commitment, probably more than i have. idk. Im overthinking it and having decision paralysis i think.
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though. That was true of the HR2, but the third generation is much more user-friendly in my experience. I typically run a dual DHR setup but HR3 front / DHR rear is sick, and I prefer that to the Assegai.
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though...
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though. That was true of the HR2, but the third generation is much more user-friendly in my experience. I typically run a dual DHR setup but HR3 front / DHR rear is sick, and I prefer that to the Assegai.
Thank you for the response! What is the reasoning that you choose between the dual DHR vs the HR3 on the front? And what is it about those tires that you prefer them to the assegai? Im trying to wrap my head around what factors would lead me to choose one tire vs another. I wish i could back to back them all, but i cant, and i dont honestly have enough experience with gravity tires to really know what i want.
Hi tirechat. Im looking for tires for the bike park. I only get to the bike park a few times a year, so i take my...
Hi tirechat. Im looking for tires for the bike park. I only get to the bike park a few times a year, so i take my trail bike. I have a spare wheelset and want to put some tires on there. Im on the east coast, im a wheels close to the ground most of the time type rider, and im pretty light (150 with gear). Assegai's i suppose are like the default choice. i also have heard such good things about the conti tires, but ive also heard that the casings are super stiff, perhaps too much so for a lighter guy? and then the new schwalbe radials are very interesting too, and thats a choice between MM and the albert i think. The HR3 and tacky chan i have heard take alot of commitment, probably more than i have. idk. Im overthinking it and having decision paralysis i think.
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though...
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though. That was true of the HR2, but the third generation is much more user-friendly in my experience. I typically run a dual DHR setup but HR3 front / DHR rear is sick, and I prefer that to the Assegai.
Agreed, HR3 is awesome, especially in loose or loose over hard. I'd describe it as the best of an Assegai and DHF, without the downsides.
My one hesitation for recommending Maxxis or Schwalbe for a bike park setup is just how damn fast their tires wear down compared to others. A set of Conti Super Softs will easily last 3x as long as MaxxGrip or Schwalbe Soft.
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though...
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though. That was true of the HR2, but the third generation is much more user-friendly in my experience. I typically run a dual DHR setup but HR3 front / DHR rear is sick, and I prefer that to the Assegai.
Thank you for the response! What is the reasoning that you choose between the dual DHR vs the HR3 on the front? And what is it...
Thank you for the response! What is the reasoning that you choose between the dual DHR vs the HR3 on the front? And what is it about those tires that you prefer them to the assegai? Im trying to wrap my head around what factors would lead me to choose one tire vs another. I wish i could back to back them all, but i cant, and i dont honestly have enough experience with gravity tires to really know what i want.
You're welcome!
I like the Assegai okay, but I much prefer the very distinct edge and on/off feel with the DHR. To me, the Assegai feels a little sluggish getting from one edge to the other when you need to change direction quickly. That's a highly personal preference.
I run the dual DHR because of the extra braking bite you get vs a DHF. I'm a big dude and like to ride steep stuff so I need all the help I can get. I also run dual DHR because that's already mounted on my long travel bike! I'll be switching the front to a HR3 before I head to Whistler later this summer though.
You're welcome! I like the Assegai okay, but I much prefer the very distinct edge and on/off feel with the DHR. To me, the Assegai feels a...
You're welcome!
I like the Assegai okay, but I much prefer the very distinct edge and on/off feel with the DHR. To me, the Assegai feels a little sluggish getting from one edge to the other when you need to change direction quickly. That's a highly personal preference.
I run the dual DHR because of the extra braking bite you get vs a DHF. I'm a big dude and like to ride steep stuff so I need all the help I can get. I also run dual DHR because that's already mounted on my long travel bike! I'll be switching the front to a HR3 before I head to Whistler later this summer though.
You're welcome! I like the Assegai okay, but I much prefer the very distinct edge and on/off feel with the DHR. To me, the Assegai feels a...
You're welcome!
I like the Assegai okay, but I much prefer the very distinct edge and on/off feel with the DHR. To me, the Assegai feels a little sluggish getting from one edge to the other when you need to change direction quickly. That's a highly personal preference.
I run the dual DHR because of the extra braking bite you get vs a DHF. I'm a big dude and like to ride steep stuff so I need all the help I can get. I also run dual DHR because that's already mounted on my long travel bike! I'll be switching the front to a HR3 before I head to Whistler later this summer though.
Honestly, I've had limited time on the 2.50" up front and when I did, it was on a DH bike that wasn't mine. That was on a Commencal Supreme in Whistler last summer. No issues with that setup whatsoever, but can't relate it to regular trail riding.
Always run 2.40 front/rear on my enduro, but that's also because I've been working my way through a stack of old protos we had laying around. The last set is on my bike at the moment.
I’m currently loving the Kryptotal Fr/Xynotal combo for the bigger bike, but I’ve had such a good time with the Spesh Eliminator/Butcher in the past that I’m curious to try the new-ish version of the treads. We just got our first bikes in with the new Butcher, and in addition to having larger tread blocks, the distinct lack of siping on the cornering knobs stands out - I don’t think I’ve seen anything quite like it. Anyone have time on the new versions to compare?
I put the Purgatory in the same class as something like a Forekaster or Aggressor. I ran one in a super pedally enduro combined with a Butcher front where rolling resistance was very important and it was great, but it came off immediately after. It's like a mini Butcher with fast rolling, short knobs great for hardpack. Not in the same league as DHR2 or even Eliminator for a rear tire. It's a trail tire, and also pretty fine for a downcountry front tire. I think it would rock in the desert.
I’ve always thought the Butcher felt much less DHF-y and that was why I like it - at least on the 2.3 the gap between the rolling and cornering knobs is a lot smaller, though the overall tread pattern is similar. Now I have a better time on front tires with more evenly spaced knobs - I’m not the most committed cornerer of all time so it’s nice to be able to trust a partial lean.
I tried the butchers 3 years ago or so in both the 2.4(?) and 2.5. Interestingly, I distinctly remember the 2.5 being very DHF like while the 2.4s were almost DHR like.
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher' when running inserts then without. I was getting some rock/rim strikes with a DD 27.5x2.5 dhr2 at 26-27 psi, and in lieu of bumping up tire pressure further, I decided to throw a tannus insert in back. A few rides in, I'm reminded of an experience I had with double down's a while ago where I thought that they actually felt firmer/harsher with inserts then without.
Flash forward to this previous experience and watching some cathro interviews with mechanics recently (I think it was last week, or maybe two weeks ago) asking about inserts. There were some comments that the pro riders felt that they didn't like how the tires felt with the inserts, some suggesting it was due to the air volume difference and the tires feeling progressive with the inserts in place.
I typically don't pay a ton of attention to what the pros are doing when it comes to applying those things to my own riding. I'm a middle aged, expert rider... call it local fast middle aged guy... but I'm an absolute jerry compared to the pros. In this case, I wonder if the progression is what I'm feeling on certain events that are compressing the tire.
For a while, I have known that I'm past the exo stage and figured that I could get away with an EXO+ & insert on my trail bike and DD/DH on enduro and ebike. Lately, I've been thinking that I may need to go with DD on my trail bike, and just go straight to DH casing on my ebike and park bike. I don't send as hard as the pros, but when I do !#$^ stuff up, a wheel tends to die an untimely death all the same.
Now I'm rambling... am I crazy for feeling this? Does anyone else have a similar experience with inserts and perceived harshness?
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher'...
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher' when running inserts then without. I was getting some rock/rim strikes with a DD 27.5x2.5 dhr2 at 26-27 psi, and in lieu of bumping up tire pressure further, I decided to throw a tannus insert in back. A few rides in, I'm reminded of an experience I had with double down's a while ago where I thought that they actually felt firmer/harsher with inserts then without.
Flash forward to this previous experience and watching some cathro interviews with mechanics recently (I think it was last week, or maybe two weeks ago) asking about inserts. There were some comments that the pro riders felt that they didn't like how the tires felt with the inserts, some suggesting it was due to the air volume difference and the tires feeling progressive with the inserts in place.
I typically don't pay a ton of attention to what the pros are doing when it comes to applying those things to my own riding. I'm a middle aged, expert rider... call it local fast middle aged guy... but I'm an absolute jerry compared to the pros. In this case, I wonder if the progression is what I'm feeling on certain events that are compressing the tire.
For a while, I have known that I'm past the exo stage and figured that I could get away with an EXO+ & insert on my trail bike and DD/DH on enduro and ebike. Lately, I've been thinking that I may need to go with DD on my trail bike, and just go straight to DH casing on my ebike and park bike. I don't send as hard as the pros, but when I do !#$^ stuff up, a wheel tends to die an untimely death all the same.
Now I'm rambling... am I crazy for feeling this? Does anyone else have a similar experience with inserts and perceived harshness?
Did you go down in pressure at all with the inserts? I would expect any tire, regardless of casing, to be “harsher” at the same PSI with an insert than without. In experimenting with pressures when I went to inserts I found my happy place to be 2-3 psi lower than what I would have run previously.
For reference I’m a big guy riding in generally high average speed, rocky terrain who has a history of ending wheels and tires. Currently running DHR DD rear with either a Tannus or CC on trail, enduro and ebike.
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher'...
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher' when running inserts then without. I was getting some rock/rim strikes with a DD 27.5x2.5 dhr2 at 26-27 psi, and in lieu of bumping up tire pressure further, I decided to throw a tannus insert in back. A few rides in, I'm reminded of an experience I had with double down's a while ago where I thought that they actually felt firmer/harsher with inserts then without.
Flash forward to this previous experience and watching some cathro interviews with mechanics recently (I think it was last week, or maybe two weeks ago) asking about inserts. There were some comments that the pro riders felt that they didn't like how the tires felt with the inserts, some suggesting it was due to the air volume difference and the tires feeling progressive with the inserts in place.
I typically don't pay a ton of attention to what the pros are doing when it comes to applying those things to my own riding. I'm a middle aged, expert rider... call it local fast middle aged guy... but I'm an absolute jerry compared to the pros. In this case, I wonder if the progression is what I'm feeling on certain events that are compressing the tire.
For a while, I have known that I'm past the exo stage and figured that I could get away with an EXO+ & insert on my trail bike and DD/DH on enduro and ebike. Lately, I've been thinking that I may need to go with DD on my trail bike, and just go straight to DH casing on my ebike and park bike. I don't send as hard as the pros, but when I do !#$^ stuff up, a wheel tends to die an untimely death all the same.
Now I'm rambling... am I crazy for feeling this? Does anyone else have a similar experience with inserts and perceived harshness?
Did you go down in pressure at all with the inserts? I would expect any tire, regardless of casing, to be “harsher” at the same PSI...
Did you go down in pressure at all with the inserts? I would expect any tire, regardless of casing, to be “harsher” at the same PSI with an insert than without. In experimenting with pressures when I went to inserts I found my happy place to be 2-3 psi lower than what I would have run previously.
For reference I’m a big guy riding in generally high average speed, rocky terrain who has a history of ending wheels and tires. Currently running DHR DD rear with either a Tannus or CC on trail, enduro and ebike.
I do usually drop 2-3 psi. I did in this case I did the same, but I was still getting rim strikes so I had to go back to 26psi in back (on my ebike in this case). Even with the reduced pressure that I ran briefly, I noticed that there was still more perceived harshness with the inserts then without.
This isn't something that I experienced in exo+ tires, even if I'm keeping the pressure largely the same. It's definitely noticeable to me on DD/DH casing tires. Maybe too much sidewall support is too much of a good thing?
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher'...
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher' when running inserts then without. I was getting some rock/rim strikes with a DD 27.5x2.5 dhr2 at 26-27 psi, and in lieu of bumping up tire pressure further, I decided to throw a tannus insert in back. A few rides in, I'm reminded of an experience I had with double down's a while ago where I thought that they actually felt firmer/harsher with inserts then without.
Flash forward to this previous experience and watching some cathro interviews with mechanics recently (I think it was last week, or maybe two weeks ago) asking about inserts. There were some comments that the pro riders felt that they didn't like how the tires felt with the inserts, some suggesting it was due to the air volume difference and the tires feeling progressive with the inserts in place.
I typically don't pay a ton of attention to what the pros are doing when it comes to applying those things to my own riding. I'm a middle aged, expert rider... call it local fast middle aged guy... but I'm an absolute jerry compared to the pros. In this case, I wonder if the progression is what I'm feeling on certain events that are compressing the tire.
For a while, I have known that I'm past the exo stage and figured that I could get away with an EXO+ & insert on my trail bike and DD/DH on enduro and ebike. Lately, I've been thinking that I may need to go with DD on my trail bike, and just go straight to DH casing on my ebike and park bike. I don't send as hard as the pros, but when I do !#$^ stuff up, a wheel tends to die an untimely death all the same.
Now I'm rambling... am I crazy for feeling this? Does anyone else have a similar experience with inserts and perceived harshness?
Did you go down in pressure at all with the inserts? I would expect any tire, regardless of casing, to be “harsher” at the same PSI...
Did you go down in pressure at all with the inserts? I would expect any tire, regardless of casing, to be “harsher” at the same PSI with an insert than without. In experimenting with pressures when I went to inserts I found my happy place to be 2-3 psi lower than what I would have run previously.
For reference I’m a big guy riding in generally high average speed, rocky terrain who has a history of ending wheels and tires. Currently running DHR DD rear with either a Tannus or CC on trail, enduro and ebike.
I do usually drop 2-3 psi. I did in this case I did the same, but I was still getting rim strikes so I had to...
I do usually drop 2-3 psi. I did in this case I did the same, but I was still getting rim strikes so I had to go back to 26psi in back (on my ebike in this case). Even with the reduced pressure that I ran briefly, I noticed that there was still more perceived harshness with the inserts then without.
This isn't something that I experienced in exo+ tires, even if I'm keeping the pressure largely the same. It's definitely noticeable to me on DD/DH casing tires. Maybe too much sidewall support is too much of a good thing?
Everything is a trade off right? In the quest to increase support and rim protection we sacrifice some compliance and trail “feel.” In the name of bro science and so that we are attempting to speak the same language I am interested in understanding what it is that you are describing as harshness to see if it at all aligns with my experience. Is this an increase in overall chatter through the bike and into feet/ hands or more of an amplification of large square edge type hits? Both?
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher'...
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher' when running inserts then without. I was getting some rock/rim strikes with a DD 27.5x2.5 dhr2 at 26-27 psi, and in lieu of bumping up tire pressure further, I decided to throw a tannus insert in back. A few rides in, I'm reminded of an experience I had with double down's a while ago where I thought that they actually felt firmer/harsher with inserts then without.
Flash forward to this previous experience and watching some cathro interviews with mechanics recently (I think it was last week, or maybe two weeks ago) asking about inserts. There were some comments that the pro riders felt that they didn't like how the tires felt with the inserts, some suggesting it was due to the air volume difference and the tires feeling progressive with the inserts in place.
I typically don't pay a ton of attention to what the pros are doing when it comes to applying those things to my own riding. I'm a middle aged, expert rider... call it local fast middle aged guy... but I'm an absolute jerry compared to the pros. In this case, I wonder if the progression is what I'm feeling on certain events that are compressing the tire.
For a while, I have known that I'm past the exo stage and figured that I could get away with an EXO+ & insert on my trail bike and DD/DH on enduro and ebike. Lately, I've been thinking that I may need to go with DD on my trail bike, and just go straight to DH casing on my ebike and park bike. I don't send as hard as the pros, but when I do !#$^ stuff up, a wheel tends to die an untimely death all the same.
Now I'm rambling... am I crazy for feeling this? Does anyone else have a similar experience with inserts and perceived harshness?
100%, Not a fan of the feeling of inserts and even still, don't trust that its the magic bullet to saving my rims. On my enduro bike I can't run anything less than DH casing tires, speeds are too much for anything less unless I want to be replacing rims regularly, DT EX511's. I have a prior gen SJEvo that I can get away with EXO+ up front and DD in the rear but I have to watch what I am riding. FWIW I run between 26-30psi in the rear. I still hear rim strikes at least a few times per ride but not rim killer strikes, just the ones that let you know that you could be playing with fire...
I recently spent a few weeks going back to running DDs again after having been on Conti DH & Enduro casings for like a year. My impression is that DD has a nice damp and compliant feeling, but really not much more sidewall support than EXO+. I don't have to worry about flats where I ride but I got more front rim strikes on roots running DD than I get with Conti, even running 1 psi higher. DD feels nice on my hands, especially on the front wheel, but I wouldn't count on it doing anything really to protect rims (I've broken a WAO front rim with DD). If you want rim protection from your tires, you've got to run something stiffer like Maxxis DH, Conti DH, or Schwalbe Gravity.
Good feedback everyone. I do agree that DD's feel nice, but the sidewall support is more or less the same as EXO+. I'm relieved to find out I'm not crazy. I'm going to continue trying out the DD's with inserts for my ebike, and see if I can get through the year on the reserve AL/HD hoop that I have on it without murdering it. I typically murder 1 ex511/reserve AL-HD per year, so that wouldn't be pretty standard.
I think it's time to bite the bullet and just go to DH casing rear tires for my enduro bike and ebike and ditch the inserts. I think I will keep the DD front tire. If I were to blow up a front rim, then that'll just be a badge of honor as I've only done that once and it's still a great story to this day.
Unrelated, my wife's contribution to this thread, would be that she "fixes" (her words, not mine) the Assegai hot patch on her tires to read "AssegaL". Other than aggressively proclaiming "Maxxis for Life" anytime someone tries to suggest a different tire setup to her, this is her prevailing opinion about mountain bike tires.
I am looking at a Slaughter/Butcher combo or Kenda Helldiver/Hellkat combo. Can't decide, but at least Kenda offers theirs in three casings. How would you describe the Slaughter casing?
Yes, a bit of extra width on a wider rim may make it better, but I am running a 25 width rim and keeping the pressure sort of low on the Minion SS. I am riding a mix of natural trails and hardpack. I can feel the casing squirm a little and it has burped on slow speed off-camber roots.
I'd 100% buy a Minion SS in something like this format, tough casing and proper 2.4 to 2.5 width. Probably somewhere between DD and DH casing perhaps? The OG Rock Razor Supergravity was the benchmark - I'd say the Kenda Helldiver is not far behind but maybe slightly bigger side knobs would be good.
I was an assegai front aggressor back dude for years, but something happened with the DD aggressor where punctures were too common, not even the big bacon bits could save them. Went back to a DD DH-R and all is well again.
I liked the aggressor as it lasted forever and was fast rolling, but as above the side knobs were decorative lol.
The aggressor is an odd tire - it might have worked better if they offered it in softer rubber but the cornering and braking traction kinda sucks for how slow it rolls (yes it's faster than a DHR but not by that much). It feels like the dissector is the tire they were trying to make when they designed the aggressor, though it has it's own issues. I used to run semi-slicks (rock razor was my favorite) but I think the introduction and refinement of in-betweener tires (Rekon / Forekaster 2, Syerra / Martello, ground control / Eliminator) give you fast rolling options that still grip pretty well when leaned over which was always needed with semi-slicks. But if I go back in time 10 years to 2015 when the Maxxis options are an ardent or minion SS then I'm picking the SS every time. I never used semi-slicks for proper DH riding where beefy casings were necessary - I never felt like rolling speed is what holding me back from going faster / having more fun.
The Grid trail casing is perfectly adequate for my spirited trail riding on trails with lots of ups and downs and roots and rocks. Unlike older Spesh tires with the Grid casing or anything Maxxis thinner than DD, I never pinch flatted those. Good support and not too stiff @ 23-25PSI. Gravity tires those aren't though.
Xynotal Enduro casing > Aggressor DD. The Xynotal continues to blow me away with how versatile a pretty good rolling tire can be. I've done a 40mi XCM race on a DH casing one and even ridden it in the snow with good results. Only thing that could pry it from my rim is a radial Hans Dampf.
Did anyone else recently hear the DH WC announcers mention prototype Specialized tires under Bruni or Finn?? I swear I heard something like this recently, but forgot if it was Poland or Loudenville.
I have brand new design Butchers and Cannibals on my workbench and they are very, very similar. Anyone heard chatter on updated DH Spec tires in the works? Specialized likes to prune and update their tread pattern lineup more regularly compared to other brands. Cannibals still not listed on their Canada website - they going away or getting update??
Specialized just updated the butcher a few months ago along with the eliminator. My guess is cannibal is next. I’ve rode the previous eliminator/ butcher and was quite happy with them. The updated versions seem to improve them even more. The cannibal is a very underrated tire that I rode all winter but didn’t quite have the braking bite I was expecting. but made up with more than expected in rolling speed. If you’re a “heavier rider” (190+lbs), you’ll like the specialized gravity casing.
I am over 190lbs kitted up and nothing is better than Specialized tires for the price, so always watching new developments closely on their side. Gravity casing has always been my choice on the rear, and I've never flatted a Grid Trail on the front. All the new pattern Butchers and Eliminators I've picked up are gravity casing, and I'm trying to wear out my current old Butcher/Eliminator combo to get the new ones on the bike.
I wish they had a few more choices of casing + compound pattern, but I understand a big part of that is the cost game and keeping # SKUs down.
They have been racing on prototype cannibals for a few seasons now. From what I have been told its just small tweaks to the casing as well as the compound. They, like Schwalbe have a, cold weather specific T9 compound, I wouldn't be surprised if they have some other FRO single run compounds as well.
I'm a little over a month in on the new Butchers, I have them at the top of my favorite tire pile now for Nor-cal conditions. Seriously debating on keeping them on for racing this summer. The only thing that I have noticed is that the butcher in the rear has a tendency to break loose when pushing the tire into the apex of a berm, not in a bad way though! It's like a quick slide that I can recover just by releasing some brake lever pressure, only happens on catch berms on flatter corners when the bike is leaned over. Might also be a result of pushing the bike harder since I still havent found the limit of grip on the front yet.
Hi tirechat. Im looking for tires for the bike park. I only get to the bike park a few times a year, so i take my trail bike. I have a spare wheelset and want to put some tires on there. Im on the east coast, im a wheels close to the ground most of the time type rider, and im pretty light (150 with gear). Assegai's i suppose are like the default choice. i also have heard such good things about the conti tires, but ive also heard that the casings are super stiff, perhaps too much so for a lighter guy? and then the new schwalbe radials are very interesting too, and thats a choice between MM and the albert i think. The HR3 and tacky chan i have heard take alot of commitment, probably more than i have. idk. Im overthinking it and having decision paralysis i think.
It's easy to overthink with so many options. Assegai/DHR is the classic go-to combo. I would disagree about the HR3 taking a lot of commitment though. That was true of the HR2, but the third generation is much more user-friendly in my experience. I typically run a dual DHR setup but HR3 front / DHR rear is sick, and I prefer that to the Assegai.
Thank you for the response! What is the reasoning that you choose between the dual DHR vs the HR3 on the front? And what is it about those tires that you prefer them to the assegai? Im trying to wrap my head around what factors would lead me to choose one tire vs another. I wish i could back to back them all, but i cant, and i dont honestly have enough experience with gravity tires to really know what i want.
Agreed, HR3 is awesome, especially in loose or loose over hard. I'd describe it as the best of an Assegai and DHF, without the downsides.
My one hesitation for recommending Maxxis or Schwalbe for a bike park setup is just how damn fast their tires wear down compared to others. A set of Conti Super Softs will easily last 3x as long as MaxxGrip or Schwalbe Soft.
You're welcome!
I like the Assegai okay, but I much prefer the very distinct edge and on/off feel with the DHR. To me, the Assegai feels a little sluggish getting from one edge to the other when you need to change direction quickly. That's a highly personal preference.
I run the dual DHR because of the extra braking bite you get vs a DHF. I'm a big dude and like to ride steep stuff so I need all the help I can get. I also run dual DHR because that's already mounted on my long travel bike! I'll be switching the front to a HR3 before I head to Whistler later this summer though.
Do you prefer 2.4 on th dual dhrs or the 2.5?
Honestly, I've had limited time on the 2.50" up front and when I did, it was on a DH bike that wasn't mine. That was on a Commencal Supreme in Whistler last summer. No issues with that setup whatsoever, but can't relate it to regular trail riding.
Always run 2.40 front/rear on my enduro, but that's also because I've been working my way through a stack of old protos we had laying around. The last set is on my bike at the moment.
I’m currently loving the Kryptotal Fr/Xynotal combo for the bigger bike, but I’ve had such a good time with the Spesh Eliminator/Butcher in the past that I’m curious to try the new-ish version of the treads. We just got our first bikes in with the new Butcher, and in addition to having larger tread blocks, the distinct lack of siping on the cornering knobs stands out - I don’t think I’ve seen anything quite like it. Anyone have time on the new versions to compare?
I put the Purgatory in the same class as something like a Forekaster or Aggressor. I ran one in a super pedally enduro combined with a Butcher front where rolling resistance was very important and it was great, but it came off immediately after. It's like a mini Butcher with fast rolling, short knobs great for hardpack. Not in the same league as DHR2 or even Eliminator for a rear tire. It's a trail tire, and also pretty fine for a downcountry front tire. I think it would rock in the desert.
I’ve always thought the Butcher felt much less DHF-y and that was why I like it - at least on the 2.3 the gap between the rolling and cornering knobs is a lot smaller, though the overall tread pattern is similar. Now I have a better time on front tires with more evenly spaced knobs - I’m not the most committed cornerer of all time so it’s nice to be able to trust a partial lean.
I tried the butchers 3 years ago or so in both the 2.4(?) and 2.5. Interestingly, I distinctly remember the 2.5 being very DHF like while the 2.4s were almost DHR like.
Question for everyone here regarding thicker tire casings and tire inserts. Recently, I noticed that maxxis double down casing tires seemed to get a smidge 'harsher' when running inserts then without. I was getting some rock/rim strikes with a DD 27.5x2.5 dhr2 at 26-27 psi, and in lieu of bumping up tire pressure further, I decided to throw a tannus insert in back. A few rides in, I'm reminded of an experience I had with double down's a while ago where I thought that they actually felt firmer/harsher with inserts then without.
Flash forward to this previous experience and watching some cathro interviews with mechanics recently (I think it was last week, or maybe two weeks ago) asking about inserts. There were some comments that the pro riders felt that they didn't like how the tires felt with the inserts, some suggesting it was due to the air volume difference and the tires feeling progressive with the inserts in place.
I typically don't pay a ton of attention to what the pros are doing when it comes to applying those things to my own riding. I'm a middle aged, expert rider... call it local fast middle aged guy... but I'm an absolute jerry compared to the pros. In this case, I wonder if the progression is what I'm feeling on certain events that are compressing the tire.
For a while, I have known that I'm past the exo stage and figured that I could get away with an EXO+ & insert on my trail bike and DD/DH on enduro and ebike. Lately, I've been thinking that I may need to go with DD on my trail bike, and just go straight to DH casing on my ebike and park bike. I don't send as hard as the pros, but when I do !#$^ stuff up, a wheel tends to die an untimely death all the same.
Now I'm rambling... am I crazy for feeling this? Does anyone else have a similar experience with inserts and perceived harshness?
Did you go down in pressure at all with the inserts? I would expect any tire, regardless of casing, to be “harsher” at the same PSI with an insert than without. In experimenting with pressures when I went to inserts I found my happy place to be 2-3 psi lower than what I would have run previously.
For reference I’m a big guy riding in generally high average speed, rocky terrain who has a history of ending wheels and tires. Currently running DHR DD rear with either a Tannus or CC on trail, enduro and ebike.
I do usually drop 2-3 psi. I did in this case I did the same, but I was still getting rim strikes so I had to go back to 26psi in back (on my ebike in this case). Even with the reduced pressure that I ran briefly, I noticed that there was still more perceived harshness with the inserts then without.
This isn't something that I experienced in exo+ tires, even if I'm keeping the pressure largely the same. It's definitely noticeable to me on DD/DH casing tires. Maybe too much sidewall support is too much of a good thing?
Everything is a trade off right? In the quest to increase support and rim protection we sacrifice some compliance and trail “feel.”
In the name of bro science and so that we are attempting to speak the same language I am interested in understanding what it is that you are describing as harshness to see if it at all aligns with my experience. Is this an increase in overall chatter through the bike and into feet/ hands or more of an amplification of large square edge type hits? Both?
100%, Not a fan of the feeling of inserts and even still, don't trust that its the magic bullet to saving my rims. On my enduro bike I can't run anything less than DH casing tires, speeds are too much for anything less unless I want to be replacing rims regularly, DT EX511's. I have a prior gen SJEvo that I can get away with EXO+ up front and DD in the rear but I have to watch what I am riding. FWIW I run between 26-30psi in the rear. I still hear rim strikes at least a few times per ride but not rim killer strikes, just the ones that let you know that you could be playing with fire...
Have you thought about FR541s?
I recently spent a few weeks going back to running DDs again after having been on Conti DH & Enduro casings for like a year. My impression is that DD has a nice damp and compliant feeling, but really not much more sidewall support than EXO+. I don't have to worry about flats where I ride but I got more front rim strikes on roots running DD than I get with Conti, even running 1 psi higher. DD feels nice on my hands, especially on the front wheel, but I wouldn't count on it doing anything really to protect rims (I've broken a WAO front rim with DD). If you want rim protection from your tires, you've got to run something stiffer like Maxxis DH, Conti DH, or Schwalbe Gravity.
Good feedback everyone. I do agree that DD's feel nice, but the sidewall support is more or less the same as EXO+. I'm relieved to find out I'm not crazy. I'm going to continue trying out the DD's with inserts for my ebike, and see if I can get through the year on the reserve AL/HD hoop that I have on it without murdering it. I typically murder 1 ex511/reserve AL-HD per year, so that wouldn't be pretty standard.
I think it's time to bite the bullet and just go to DH casing rear tires for my enduro bike and ebike and ditch the inserts. I think I will keep the DD front tire. If I were to blow up a front rim, then that'll just be a badge of honor as I've only done that once and it's still a great story to this day.
Unrelated, my wife's contribution to this thread, would be that she "fixes" (her words, not mine) the Assegai hot patch on her tires to read "AssegaL". Other than aggressively proclaiming "Maxxis for Life" anytime someone tries to suggest a different tire setup to her, this is her prevailing opinion about mountain bike tires.
Post a reply to: Tire chat (nerds only)