E-bike talk: not tech rumor derailment

biggest factor is your weight, then what mode (assistance) you require. If you are a twig, you can ride absurd vert. For us THICC men, 1200-1500m from 700wh is typical.

convert that to cheeseburger units

Sorry had to get it sorted. Current weight with pedals read to ride 25.5kg or 56.2 lbs 

It depends a lot on rider weight and fitness, and of course how technical the climbs are vs. say, fire roads.  I weight <165 without gear.  When I owned a Levo with a 720wh battery, I could get over 6,500' in turbo.  On my Heckler SL with 430wh battery, I get 4,500' in rocket.  Both of those are on predominantly fire road climbs, moderately steep, in about 2:15-2:30 time.

Also of course there's a tradeoff on how playful you want the bike to be descending.

Weight is the most important factor, range difference between me and a friend that is 100lb less is crazy (same bike).

I'm 6'3 270lbs and I squeeze out 1200m out of my 800wh battery (Syncdrive Pro 2). If I use ECO or downtune the motor I can get a little bit more than that.

Most of the time I'm tired before the battery runs out and if I need more range I just charge the bike with a portable power station during lunch as almost all of the trail systems here are looping back to the parking lot.

I prefer mid powers, but I don't live in the mountains.

For that sort of vert, I'd suggest a new gen Bosch with the 800 watt battery. You pretty much have 3 choices that I can see. The new Crestline, the new Mondraker, or the new Orbea Wild.

GL.

Bike weight was my biggest fear, I was adding about 20lbs with my first ebike compared to my regular bike. I only notice it taking it on and off my hitch rack. Once on the trail I actually prefer the higher weight, it feels much more "planted." There's a good reason pro DHers have been adding weight to their BB's, I noticed it first hand.

No worries. Yeah, 56.2lbs is is a bit on the heavier side, although certainly not unheard of for a full power e-bike. I spent a week on a Turbo Levo Comp Carbon, with the big battery, and didn't find it to be too sluggish feeling at 51lbs, although I also haven't ridden one of those Pivots for comparison. Apparently those Pivots are 48lbs, so that is starting to be a pretty big intrinsic weight advantage. 

Not sure how big a e-bike riding community there is in your area, or what rental/demo options there are, but if you could get a ride on a lighter weight Turbo Levo, then it would help isolate if it's purely weight you're feeling, or if perhaps that Pivot has a lot more playful suspension setup. I know that might be impractical depending on your location though. 

Thanks, helpful insights here. 
I’m about 190lb all suited up and can put out a fair amount of power, so I won’t mind eco mode to balance distance and still get extra speed

What about getting a mid power bike but carrying an extra battery for the long days? Does anyone do this? Then it’s still pretty light and nimble on the after work laps and quick adventures. With a bike like a transition relay I’d have two 430w batteries. Is that a ridiculous idea?

No, Ive only seen Bosch and Specialized have range extenders. That’s why I’m wondering if it’s a cockamamie idea to carry a second battery to get the range I want. Seems like it should be simple, but maybe there’s something I don’t know. 

The plans to ride with and stash extra batteries all over are the final hurdle to pass for prospective eebers…just buy one and ride! 
The only place it’s ever made sense to stash my second battery (630Wh Shimano) is in the car. I can come up with a 40 mile / 9000ft loop with a car halfway for food / battery swap, but that’s once every two years and almost for the novelty of the route. Usually it’s a battery in trail mode with a friend or two, then decide if I’m gonna stick around and roast a boost lap. When I have all day I’ll show up with two full batteries: unless I’m in late summer shape, two batteries in eco mode is going to outlast my body. 
I’d suggest getting the eeb you think is the coolest for you right now and figuring out the second battery later. I suspect you’ll find stashing / carrying batteries not worth the effort. I’ve done a couple events where we had a truck meet us at lunchtime with spare batteries and gennies and sandwiches, but we paid for that…
Also: I appreciate the use of vertical climb instead of mileage here—that’s a better indicator of battery life in practice. In Washington I’ll get 5000ft per battery on an eco-heavy ride, low 20something miles, a couple laps…got down to the central coast of California with two full batteries with the same philosophy and never had to make the swap. Not enough vert! 
Done some casual testing in zones with both shuttle roads and climbing trails to the same summit. Whether grinding up the shorter route or zooming along the road, times were similar and electrons spent were the same. It may be a quirk of my region but I’m inclined to think the vertical work is the main factor in determining effort. I speak in vert and duration now, is what I’m saying. 
But yeah overall please go get the bike and worry about the extra battery shit later!

(Get what your crew has, too. That’s important so you’re not bored with pedal monks or smoked by full power gonzos)

In 2025 the Fazua is going to offer a 480 watt battery as standard in the fixed battery option bikes. Sadly, those of us with removable Fazua batteries (i.e. Relay) are not scheduled to get it.

The RE for the Fazuas is getting released in 1st quarter 2025.

Even though I'd love to have the bigger battery with no weight penalty, I never use more than 60% of my Fazua's battery and usually closer to 40%, so it's really unnecessary for me.

I like what the RM Instinct Powerplay SL has going on. Great weight and motor efficiency with a HUGE battery, 580 watts, I think. Also, the most powerful mid power motor.

That said, even though my Relay is a bit outdated in some ways, it still has the geo and travel I want, with plenty of power for my AM needs. I hope that someday I can just buy an updated battery and motor package from Fazua that drops right in to my Relay.

I like having a mid-power for the lighter weight and that it makes me still 'work for it'. But the weight of these new full powers is getting really good, so I see the appeal even if you don't 'need' the power or even battery size.

I've heard of people doing exact that, and carrying an extra battery for long backcountry days in the alps, so not cockamamie at all as far as I can tell. It seems like a very viable alternative option to systems with range extenders.

The main obstacle to more people doing that (other than the cost of the extra battery) is just that a lot of bikes don't allow for quick battery swaps. No one wants to pull their motor out on the trail just to access their battery, so you just need to ensure that your chosen bike allows for quick swaps with minimal tools. That is definitely a consideration for me with bike shopping, and I'm sort of bummed that more bike companies that have semi-built-in batteries are not ensuring they at least have a range extender available.

We mix and match different powered e-bikes, and even the occasional bike, and it doesn't matter much. Our trails are tight rowdy single track with very few significant and open climbs where a full power e-bike can really shine.

I mean that's the same with acoustic bikes. Different group settings and people will create a totally different experience. With the ebikes it should be even easier to mellow out the fitness differences but only if everyone plays along. Because even if you all have the same system rider weight and setting can make a difference when there is much elevation. For a 60 kg rider the same motor will feel more powerful and give more range than for a 90 kg rider. 

Please forgive me if somebody has already had this idea. I'm not a big fan of ebikes so I don't follow this thread. 

What if... With the techonlogy we have, ebikes could record calibrating rides and come up with a setting to give just enough power assist to compensate for the extra wight. The idea being that if you ride with normals you're not "Cheating." A dude on the Moi Moi channel mentioned "Putting it walking mode." Is that close enough?

Lots of bikes give you the option to "micro tune" the assist level either through the controller or via an app. It's a good solution if your only bike is electric but otherwise, just ride a regular bike in that scenario. 

crossworx trip290 light ebike via email this morn

https://www.crossworx-cycles.com/en/shop/bikes-en/e-mtb-bikes-en/trip29…

That’s a great idea! There are systems that let you input a route and designate how much battery you want to use on it—that’s already happening for a single bike. Implement BigBirdRoutePlanner and that lead bike could inform all the others in the group to do the same, adjusting for battery capacity, system weight, all of it. 
Love it. Would be great for rental fleets and sightseeing rides too. Swarm brain managing collective drain could have everyone end the ride with the same 5% battery left. 
Cool idea, probably entirely possible now!
 

Forbidden E-Bike with the DJI motor…..thoughts!

Is that a fantasy pairing you came up with (admittedly, and pretty sweet sounding one) or did you hear word that Forbidden may start using DJI motors? I've been waiting to see when the first announcements of DJI partnerships with other bike companies will start dropping, but so far I haven't heard anything. However, I know these development cycles are a few years long so, depending on how early DJI put out word to potential partners, it is really tough to gauge. Like, if the industry as a whole found out at Eurobike, just like consumers, that DJI had a new motor, we're probably looking at late 2025 or early 2026 (maybe sooner for a small batch company like Nicolai or someone like that). But if they had reps out there pitching it well in advance to product managers, as is often the case with established industry players, then it could be much sooner, similar to how consumers find out about a new Sram or Shimano drivetrain/motor when the bikes are already nearly ready to ship, but the product managers have known for over a year.

I'm pretty intrigued by this DJI motor, although if I was a product manager for a larger company, and looking at the costs of opening up new carbon molds with a new motor bolt pattern (I'm assuming), I'd really be having a tough time committing either way. Do you go with the safe industry leader (the new Bosch CX) or do you go with the new, potentially even better, but maybe possibly flawed option. If I was a smaller company, especially one working with aluminum or additive manufacturing that made it less costly to whip out a small batch of a new model, I'd be all over the DJI as soon as they had them available. You could potentially even do it the same way we can currently choose from different parts packages on the same frame, for example, if you were ordering a new Atherton e-bike, you could choose if you want a Shimano, a Bosch, or a DJI motor, and they can have lower lugs ready to go for any of the options. That way they don't lose potential customers because there was a mismatch between what the product manager thought was best, and what the consumer thinks is best in the motor dilemma, and everyone wins. It also puts more of the burden of responsibility on the motor manufacturer and the consumer, so it if turns out the DJI motor has a fragile clutch (just as an example) Atherton is in a position of saying "look man, you could have picked the Bosch", rather than shouldering the blame for the choice themselves as would be the case if they chose the motor themselves.

And I don't meant to diss the Amflow bikes that DJI is already offering. They seem like a pretty decent first attempt for sure. It's just they're more of an AM bike rather than a Enduro setup, and they're also not even available in the USA as far as I can tell.

Was this confirmed? I see some rumours here and there but it doesn't seem like there was any confirmation or first-hand info on this.

Wow, I thought we might finally be seeing some intel on 3rd party DJI equipped bikes, but it seems the trail has gone cold again. I guess that lame new Bosch CX motor and high density batteries will have to suffice for another year(s). 😉

I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be the whole bike. I don't know why people are so fixated on motors and their power. I'm more interested in how the bike handles on trails. Any motor will get me up there.