people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad hand/finger/thumb cramps.
people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad...
people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad hand/finger/thumb cramps.
same, prob due to the much stronger power and actually less lever force needed to get the power. this whole "stiff lever breakaway" argument does not hold up in my personal riding experiences with mavens. love em.
I've got two set of Mavens. I actually agree with the criticisms we're seeing from reviewers. The bleed process has been a faff, there's still some pump up issues, the levers squeak, etc. I quite like the brakes, it's why I have two sets, but I'd still rather have a lighter dead stroke. If that force/feel doesn't matter, why are multiple brands putting effort into reducing it? Hayes specifically said they made the stroke light because that's what their riders wanted. At the end of the day, does anyone actually prefer the way the mavens (dead stroke) feel compared to the dominions?
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane...
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on...
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
Older version, without contact point (German distributor said they'd be available early next year, but considering they are out to some people already, might just be "old" stock) and in mineral oil. Using Bionol in them, bled with 2 syringes at first and then a funnel at the master cylinder as it's just easier.
Sent him a message via the contact form on the website, didn't have the email, and I have yet to get a reply but it's been like a day or 2 so it's all good.
The feeling is that the master cylinder membrane sucks oil back up in the reservoir when they heat up a bit, and you can actually see the pistons roll back over a few seconds. Open the mc and let some air or add a drop of oil in there and it goes away for a bit. It's the 2 pistons closest to the hose.
I'll update if I get an answer and if I manage to fix them.
I also have one lever that has a small amount of play, the left one I believe, like if I press the brake, and then slightly push out on the lever, there's a small 1mm movement that only happens on one. Doesn't matter to me, but maybe something was amiss in the QC of that pair when it went out.
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which has been proven stronger with the same effort to the lever AND has a way lighter free stroke, so even if you have a perfect brake technique and go hard all the time will result in less fatigue, just like for someone dragging brakes all the time like me.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at the lever. As a result, all power/stop/etc times are based on that constant force at the lever. They didn't explicitly test engagement point, deadstroke force, etc, but their test does better reflect the type of power you get out of a brake for a given amount of lever force. The downside to this approach is that it doesn't measure lever pull distance, which I think is important, but also doesn't show how much force is required to generate an equal amount of power. Still, it's a more scientific and accurate test compared to Dales, which again, shows effectively nothing useful.
As for dragging brakes, I'm honestly not sure how someone could drag the Mavens, they are just so powerful. I suppose if you used much smaller rotors or let the contact point out, you could, but I'd argue riders looking for that sort of feel from their brakes would be better with another option like Codes, Dominions, etc unless they are riding super steep terrain and heat is an issue or they are very heavy.
The Mavens are somewhat of a niche brake that won't suit a lot of riders. If you are super light, they are going to be harder to get along with and require more tuning. If you like super long lever pulls, same story. They are really only suitable for extended descents with heavier bikes/riders and for riders who want that type of rapid power delivery, I'd say the same for the Kahas. Riders looking for more linear, gradual power delivery would be better suited with T4 V4s, Dominions, Codes, etc.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into my finder harder the whole time I was on them until the bite point. If I was dragging those brakes I would have felt more fatigue compared to a different brake. They could have been set up poorly, I'm not sure I didn't set them up. Just different experiences with them I guess.
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing...
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at...
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at the lever. As a result, all power/stop/etc times are based on that constant force at the lever. They didn't explicitly test engagement point, deadstroke force, etc, but their test does better reflect the type of power you get out of a brake for a given amount of lever force. The downside to this approach is that it doesn't measure lever pull distance, which I think is important, but also doesn't show how much force is required to generate an equal amount of power. Still, it's a more scientific and accurate test compared to Dales, which again, shows effectively nothing useful.
As for dragging brakes, I'm honestly not sure how someone could drag the Mavens, they are just so powerful. I suppose if you used much smaller rotors or let the contact point out, you could, but I'd argue riders looking for that sort of feel from their brakes would be better with another option like Codes, Dominions, etc unless they are riding super steep terrain and heat is an issue or they are very heavy.
The Mavens are somewhat of a niche brake that won't suit a lot of riders. If you are super light, they are going to be harder to get along with and require more tuning. If you like super long lever pulls, same story. They are really only suitable for extended descents with heavier bikes/riders and for riders who want that type of rapid power delivery, I'd say the same for the Kahas. Riders looking for more linear, gradual power delivery would be better suited with T4 V4s, Dominions, Codes, etc.
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops it's astonishing, even with people riding more powerful brakes, metallic pads, and large rotors. The Mavens for sure are a niche product, but with how the industry is a lot of people who don't need a brake like that will end up on them. The Codes are a far better sram brake for most riders, but that doesn't matter when it comes to hype.
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into...
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into my finder harder the whole time I was on them until the bite point. If I was dragging those brakes I would have felt more fatigue compared to a different brake. They could have been set up poorly, I'm not sure I didn't set them up. Just different experiences with them I guess.
Yea, don't get me wrong, it's absolutely a stiffer initial lever than most brakes on the market today. I just don't think this contributed to Dale's hand problems or fatigue. It does have a firm feel when you start pulling it, but my experience is that once the pads engage, that feel remains mostly consistent at the lever especially for the given power output. This is in contrast to other brakes that may have a light initial feel to the pull but ramp up considerably once the pads engage. I'd venture if you measured the average amount of lever force to maintain a given power output from the brake, you'd find the Mavens score better than other options. In other words, the lever is stiffer the whole time but when the pads engage, they don't stiffen as much and it remains a more consistent amount of force required to move it.
Putting it simpler, I have more issues with brakes that require a lot of force when the pads engage than I do those that require more force across the entire lever pull. There are some brakes people talk about as being powerful, but to get that power it requires a lot of force at the lever near the end of the lever pull, far far more than the Mavens require to get the lever moving. This puts an enormous amount of tension on your hand and even shifts the angle of pressure on your hands to the bars. For the Mavens, if you feather the bite point, you can go from doing nothing to skidding with very little variation in force at the lever despite a slightly higher amount required to overcome the pressure of the spring. You can feather the Mavens around the bite point with a bit more effort dealing with the spring as opposed to having to clench other brakes beyond the bite point to get the same power down. To add further to this, I'd argue if you can't pull past the lever force to get through the deadstroke, you probably don't have enough hand strength to operate brakes that require more force to operate at the bite point in the first place.
I think the average rider (I mean in the sense of terrain, weight, bike, etc - not skill level necessarily) are better off with Dominions, Hope, etc. I think you'll see this reflected in OE specs also where they continue to spec Codes, just to be clear on that, but I also don't think this hand fatigue thing is an issue.
They are also not without other faults. The reservoir size is comically large and it sits so close to the bar, it makes mounting other controls without Matchmaker basically impossible. I also found loading/unloading pads a bit tedious and they did a pisspoor job of communicating the setup instructions required. The caliper and lever body are also absolutely hideous. I just think that Dale's review missed most of the issues with the brakes in favor of one that doesn't reflect my experience with them, something that's been pointed out by more than just me.
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops...
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops it's astonishing, even with people riding more powerful brakes, metallic pads, and large rotors. The Mavens for sure are a niche product, but with how the industry is a lot of people who don't need a brake like that will end up on them. The Codes are a far better sram brake for most riders, but that doesn't matter when it comes to hype.
Yea, I have no doubt, especially considering how few riders know how to use their front brake properly.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which...
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which has been proven stronger with the same effort to the lever AND has a way lighter free stroke, so even if you have a perfect brake technique and go hard all the time will result in less fatigue, just like for someone dragging brakes all the time like me.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not...
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down...
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down...
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
No, I meant I ran the standard 1.8mm floating rotors with the Shimano and Maguras. I had to file down part of the rear mounting part on the calipers so that the rivets would clear it. The vented rotors are too thick for any other brake, but I think they're interesting and if I ever get some V4s I would use them.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very...
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
you dont need to do that with other brakes so that makes it automatically a bad design
Having to set air pressure, rebound and compression automatically makes full suspension bikes a bad design compared to hardtails.
If a product requires a certain setup to give a net positive, it is not a bad design per-se. Not following said instructions and saying the product is bad is bad reviewing. Speaking in general terms, not Mavens specifically, as I hardly know what's going on with them outside this topic and haven't tried them in real life so can't comment on them.
Regarding Dale's review and my original comment @Eae903 my comment was aimed at comments from this thread, I think Dale even chimed in here to defend his point of view? I do not have first hand experience on what was going on, only people here claiming steps from the setup procedure were skipped.
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane...
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on...
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
Give a review on what the effects of changing the fluid are like. A while ago there were some theories that brake feel could be impacted by fluid choice too. Kahas are the perfect brake to test this out.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down...
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
I agree the T4 V4 lever feel takes some adjustment esp coming from brakes with normal levels of feedback, I nearly ate handlebar the first time I ran them because I was feeling for that engagement point.
I gather the E4s have more lever feedback and feel more like a traditional mtb brake, but I haven't tried them personally, just what I've heard
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times...
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus exposing more piston to the elements. Buying the Hope bleed cup and just running a full gravity bleed seems to get it %97 good and then just a quick lever bleed after the first couple rides should sort you out. I know you've definitely done your research/ridden Hope before but man they are so damn good, will never swap back to anything else.
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times...
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus...
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus exposing more piston to the elements. Buying the Hope bleed cup and just running a full gravity bleed seems to get it %97 good and then just a quick lever bleed after the first couple rides should sort you out. I know you've definitely done your research/ridden Hope before but man they are so damn good, will never swap back to anything else.
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times...
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
Another data point, have two sets of T4V4 with several hundred miles (over 800 km if you aren't using freedom units). Haven't had to do anything after initial cut hose and bleed.
Did have one pair where one brake would get squishy, contacted Hope, they recommended swapping the seal, seal kit wasn't very expensive ($20 US dollarydoos or so), bleed, and good ever since.
Had Formula Cura 4 for several years before that, they are quite good, Hope have more modulation feel, moar colourz, I appreciate using DOT and being able to get DOT vs magical mineral oil concoctions tbh.
This is all in sunny Arizona so I can't speak to anything about moisture related items, running Hope green pads and Hope rotors which have been very durable and all around pretty swell.
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope choosen one out of the box, same goes with the Maximas and their great power + pad.
For the rest ( the dyno test part ) i do agree with you, it's a shame Sinter did not have the maven pad ready yet at the time of testing.
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope...
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope choosen one out of the box, same goes with the Maximas and their great power + pad.
For the rest ( the dyno test part ) i do agree with you, it's a shame Sinter did not have the maven pad ready yet at the time of testing.
The limited edition ultimate kit that they were provided with for review includes the metallic pads. They just chose not to use them for some reason.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not...
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point? If...
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
people complain about a stiff lever but i've had considerably less hand fatigue since I started using them, which was huge as I suffered from bad hand/finger/thumb cramps.
same, prob due to the much stronger power and actually less lever force needed to get the power. this whole "stiff lever breakaway" argument does not hold up in my personal riding experiences with mavens. love em.
I've got two set of Mavens. I actually agree with the criticisms we're seeing from reviewers. The bleed process has been a faff, there's still some pump up issues, the levers squeak, etc. I quite like the brakes, it's why I have two sets, but I'd still rather have a lighter dead stroke. If that force/feel doesn't matter, why are multiple brands putting effort into reducing it? Hayes specifically said they made the stroke light because that's what their riders wanted. At the end of the day, does anyone actually prefer the way the mavens (dead stroke) feel compared to the dominions?
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
Older version, without contact point (German distributor said they'd be available early next year, but considering they are out to some people already, might just be "old" stock) and in mineral oil. Using Bionol in them, bled with 2 syringes at first and then a funnel at the master cylinder as it's just easier.
Sent him a message via the contact form on the website, didn't have the email, and I have yet to get a reply but it's been like a day or 2 so it's all good.
The feeling is that the master cylinder membrane sucks oil back up in the reservoir when they heat up a bit, and you can actually see the pistons roll back over a few seconds. Open the mc and let some air or add a drop of oil in there and it goes away for a bit. It's the 2 pistons closest to the hose.
I'll update if I get an answer and if I manage to fix them.
I also have one lever that has a small amount of play, the left one I believe, like if I press the brake, and then slightly push out on the lever, there's a small 1mm movement that only happens on one. Doesn't matter to me, but maybe something was amiss in the QC of that pair when it went out.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which has been proven stronger with the same effort to the lever AND has a way lighter free stroke, so even if you have a perfect brake technique and go hard all the time will result in less fatigue, just like for someone dragging brakes all the time like me.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
They measured power with a consistent lever force (4kg according to their site), so unless I misunderstood, the test was done with a consistent force at the lever. As a result, all power/stop/etc times are based on that constant force at the lever. They didn't explicitly test engagement point, deadstroke force, etc, but their test does better reflect the type of power you get out of a brake for a given amount of lever force. The downside to this approach is that it doesn't measure lever pull distance, which I think is important, but also doesn't show how much force is required to generate an equal amount of power. Still, it's a more scientific and accurate test compared to Dales, which again, shows effectively nothing useful.
As for dragging brakes, I'm honestly not sure how someone could drag the Mavens, they are just so powerful. I suppose if you used much smaller rotors or let the contact point out, you could, but I'd argue riders looking for that sort of feel from their brakes would be better with another option like Codes, Dominions, etc unless they are riding super steep terrain and heat is an issue or they are very heavy.
The Mavens are somewhat of a niche brake that won't suit a lot of riders. If you are super light, they are going to be harder to get along with and require more tuning. If you like super long lever pulls, same story. They are really only suitable for extended descents with heavier bikes/riders and for riders who want that type of rapid power delivery, I'd say the same for the Kahas. Riders looking for more linear, gradual power delivery would be better suited with T4 V4s, Dominions, Codes, etc.
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into my finder harder the whole time I was on them until the bite point. If I was dragging those brakes I would have felt more fatigue compared to a different brake. They could have been set up poorly, I'm not sure I didn't set them up. Just different experiences with them I guess.
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops it's astonishing, even with people riding more powerful brakes, metallic pads, and large rotors. The Mavens for sure are a niche product, but with how the industry is a lot of people who don't need a brake like that will end up on them. The Codes are a far better sram brake for most riders, but that doesn't matter when it comes to hype.
Yea, don't get me wrong, it's absolutely a stiffer initial lever than most brakes on the market today. I just don't think this contributed to Dale's hand problems or fatigue. It does have a firm feel when you start pulling it, but my experience is that once the pads engage, that feel remains mostly consistent at the lever especially for the given power output. This is in contrast to other brakes that may have a light initial feel to the pull but ramp up considerably once the pads engage. I'd venture if you measured the average amount of lever force to maintain a given power output from the brake, you'd find the Mavens score better than other options. In other words, the lever is stiffer the whole time but when the pads engage, they don't stiffen as much and it remains a more consistent amount of force required to move it.
Putting it simpler, I have more issues with brakes that require a lot of force when the pads engage than I do those that require more force across the entire lever pull. There are some brakes people talk about as being powerful, but to get that power it requires a lot of force at the lever near the end of the lever pull, far far more than the Mavens require to get the lever moving. This puts an enormous amount of tension on your hand and even shifts the angle of pressure on your hands to the bars. For the Mavens, if you feather the bite point, you can go from doing nothing to skidding with very little variation in force at the lever despite a slightly higher amount required to overcome the pressure of the spring. You can feather the Mavens around the bite point with a bit more effort dealing with the spring as opposed to having to clench other brakes beyond the bite point to get the same power down. To add further to this, I'd argue if you can't pull past the lever force to get through the deadstroke, you probably don't have enough hand strength to operate brakes that require more force to operate at the bite point in the first place.
I think the average rider (I mean in the sense of terrain, weight, bike, etc - not skill level necessarily) are better off with Dominions, Hope, etc. I think you'll see this reflected in OE specs also where they continue to spec Codes, just to be clear on that, but I also don't think this hand fatigue thing is an issue.
They are also not without other faults. The reservoir size is comically large and it sits so close to the bar, it makes mounting other controls without Matchmaker basically impossible. I also found loading/unloading pads a bit tedious and they did a pisspoor job of communicating the setup instructions required. The caliper and lever body are also absolutely hideous. I just think that Dale's review missed most of the issues with the brakes in favor of one that doesn't reflect my experience with them, something that's been pointed out by more than just me.
Yea, I have no doubt, especially considering how few riders know how to use their front brake properly.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
No, I meant I ran the standard 1.8mm floating rotors with the Shimano and Maguras. I had to file down part of the rear mounting part on the calipers so that the rivets would clear it. The vented rotors are too thick for any other brake, but I think they're interesting and if I ever get some V4s I would use them.
Having to set air pressure, rebound and compression automatically makes full suspension bikes a bad design compared to hardtails.
If a product requires a certain setup to give a net positive, it is not a bad design per-se. Not following said instructions and saying the product is bad is bad reviewing. Speaking in general terms, not Mavens specifically, as I hardly know what's going on with them outside this topic and haven't tried them in real life so can't comment on them.
Regarding Dale's review and my original comment @Eae903 my comment was aimed at comments from this thread, I think Dale even chimed in here to defend his point of view? I do not have first hand experience on what was going on, only people here claiming steps from the setup procedure were skipped.
Give a review on what the effects of changing the fluid are like. A while ago there were some theories that brake feel could be impacted by fluid choice too. Kahas are the perfect brake to test this out.
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
I agree the T4 V4 lever feel takes some adjustment esp coming from brakes with normal levels of feedback, I nearly ate handlebar the first time I ran them because I was feeling for that engagement point.
I gather the E4s have more lever feedback and feel more like a traditional mtb brake, but I haven't tried them personally, just what I've heard
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus exposing more piston to the elements. Buying the Hope bleed cup and just running a full gravity bleed seems to get it %97 good and then just a quick lever bleed after the first couple rides should sort you out. I know you've definitely done your research/ridden Hope before but man they are so damn good, will never swap back to anything else.
Very good to hear!
Another data point, have two sets of T4V4 with several hundred miles (over 800 km if you aren't using freedom units). Haven't had to do anything after initial cut hose and bleed.
Did have one pair where one brake would get squishy, contacted Hope, they recommended swapping the seal, seal kit wasn't very expensive ($20 US dollarydoos or so), bleed, and good ever since.
Had Formula Cura 4 for several years before that, they are quite good, Hope have more modulation feel, moar colourz, I appreciate using DOT and being able to get DOT vs magical mineral oil concoctions tbh.
This is all in sunny Arizona so I can't speak to anything about moisture related items, running Hope green pads and Hope rotors which have been very durable and all around pretty swell.
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope choosen one out of the box, same goes with the Maximas and their great power + pad.
For the rest ( the dyno test part ) i do agree with you, it's a shame Sinter did not have the maven pad ready yet at the time of testing.
The limited edition ultimate kit that they were provided with for review includes the metallic pads. They just chose not to use them for some reason.
i wouldn't have either given that everything else was on organic, let alone the Dominions
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
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