2024 Red Bull Rampage Chat

Cam Zink's line last year was a good line with tech drops etc. TVS' run this year reminds me more of Cam Zink's 2013 run when he again did the biggest backflip ever at the time and inished third. Even he said during the finish interview that he didn't have that much else in the run.

Rampage is too hard to score anyway. I have my opinion on a lot of the runs, and I'm seeing widely different opinions here and on other sites about TVS/Tmack/Silva/Semenuk that people think were massively overscored or underscored.

I feel like semenuks oppo whip lillypad drop thing is being very under stated - debatably the most technical and precise move of the whole event? It probably ticked off every judging criteria 10/10. In the end the Top 4 were all amazing runs, could have gone either way.

I am not saying there is bias of a Red Bull rider winning Rampage. Just some additional detail.

Straight was a Red Bull rider in 2004, wasn't in 2013.

Lacondeguy was a Red Bull rider in 2014 when he won

Semenuk has won 5 times, been a Red Bull rider the entire time

Also, had Godziek won, he is also a Red Bull rider. 

apparently i wrote an article on rampage in 2003. i just found it and have reposted it here (w/ some pics, vids and apologies LOL). groomers vs raw was a hot topic over two decades ago, too.

https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/what-i-wrote-about-red-bull-rampage-2…

Definitely a proper Rampage type send, but the rest of the run was... Kinda meh by comparison. And I think Zink winning last year with a run like that really calls into question the criteria or consistency or both. But maybe no one put in a proper SS run last year? So maybe that's all it is... Do SS tricks on Rampage type features and you win? And nobody else is really stepping up to the plate. Dunno what SS rider has the same FR chops or what FR rider has the same SS chops. So that's fair. He's basically riding at a completely different level.

But even then the order is just... Confusing. TVS had the biggest send. Godziek had the most complete run if an important criteria is basically never letting up and doing something fucked up on every hit. Brendog had the most creative and raw line. Semenuk had the most tech tricks.

I don't envy any one the task of picking those apart and choosing which value is most important. But I think when it comes to overall scoring, the idea of overall run top to bottom and packing it in should be prio number one. I feel like Godziek ticked every damn box. And got 2nd. Meh

For me to enjoy Rampage you have to park the scoring and just appreciate what all the riders are doing - its almost got to a stage where the approach's being taken are so different its hard to judge and compare.

You have Semenuk doing super tech on smaller features, but the tricks he is doing are still likely the biggest of their kind ever thrown, then you have at the opposite end of the spectrum Bren carving out the gnarliest most exposed route down the mountain, that most pros wouldn't even consider attempting, and then you have the likes of TVS throwing down tricks there are literally do or die and straight out of a video game in terms of scale.

And therein lies the issue - Rampage has morphed into a different event for different riders, with the freeride lable being a catchall term. For some its the opportunity to take tech tricks to another level, for others to throw down the biggest scale tricks ever scene, and for some the chance to push bike control and risk to the very limit.

Its also a fact that Rampage is in the same vein as Nitro Circus and the like to the general viewing public - i was watching with my 9 year old son, and Semenuks run was hands down the favourite for him, though he felt TVS should have won for the front flip whereas for me TMac and Brendogs level of line choice and bike control where the winners.

Perhaps its the case that the judges are looking for a winner that the layman can appreciate, whereas us nerd will always see the technical artist as the one who got robbed.

Ultimately Rampage has gone from an event that catered to the likes of us, to a massive mainstream event there people tune in as much to see the falls as the freeride lines.

I would like to see an equivalent of the snow worlds Freeride World Tour, say 4 venues around the globe, minimal building, and pretty much hitting up raw tech blind with only a bit of scouting.

I did this just for fun to try to in whatever way I can put myself in their shoes. I liked the idea someone said about JUST ranking riders... Not getting 'lost in the numbers'. Mostly because the riding styles are so different its already hard to just RANK them... Let alone put a number against another number with totally different styles. So anyway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8UMnbgRspg 

Disclaimer: while editing/ranking, I did feel at the end I made some mistakes and decided to correct them at the very end. I had TVS and Silva swapped and Ethan and Kyle swapped. Just got lost in the comparisons as the runs happened. But when all runs were done and I thought back I felt I simply had those wrong given the criteria I was trying to consistently operate in (which I kinda mention at the very end).

Also I encourage anyone else to just give it a go and basically post their 'rankings'. No scores needed. It's definitely one of those things where you may learn something about your own biases and when trying to apply a consistent criteria you find struggles to avoid bias and apply some form of objectivity to various things. Difficulty, height, speed, 'style' (at least in so far as landing clean).

Mostly tongue in cheek, I don't think he deserved the win but the helmet he had on didn't make a difference 

Holy crap, Women's Rampage on the front page of the New York Times! https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/16/us/red-bull-rampage-women-mountain-b…

I think that this year really highlights the differences in what the viewers want and what the judges are looking for in the event. Brendon's and Semenuk's score disparity really proves it. Like you said before, Brendon has the most creative, tech, and raw line on course by a long shot, crazy to link all of those features together the way he did. Semenuk had the best tricks and the most tricks for sure, but take each feature and the connective tissue between them out side of rampage for a bit. With some exceptions, the Lilly pad and the chute, they would fit in at any crankworx slope style event. Wide paths, manicured lips, big transitions. Rampage is judged on 5 catagories right? Amplitude, technicality, Tricks, speed, and line choice or something like that. There needs to be a change in how those catagories are weighted. Increase the importance of technicality, line choice, and amplitude in the judging, score them all independently, and take a weighted average. Make it so tricks can help you win, but you can't win almost solely on tricks. It's crazy that the judging has been getting backlash like this for so long and that no perceptible change has been made. There are always going to be some people who are upset, but right now it seems like the majority of people are. 

brendog's post-rampage vlog

havent even watched yet and that title is GOATED lol

Red Bull Ram- Joyride

That's RAD!!

"Dangerous for kids!" 🤣

Was the Trailblazer award because no-one's been that robbed before?

It's a reference to how blazed the judges were #GnarCouch meme cred

Cam Mccaul was on the latest Moving the Needle podcast and they talked a lot about judging at Rampage this year. Definitely some good points on how things have been scored int he past and inconsistency this year, but also pointed out how insane the level of riding was this year. Worth a watch. 

Just found Tom's burner account..

You got me (I mean him). 

Made an account in 2010 at age 14 (if I were TVS) just in case I needed to defend my future self and Rampage performance on Vital decades later.

This is exactly it.  Front flips are harder than backflips, but they aren't as cool to watch or fun to do.  So some people will rank them higher and some people will rank them lower.  We don't want to go down the road of this trick has a degree of difficultly of 3.2 and the execution of that was a 3.4 so when we apply the amplitude multiplier of 1.4 that trick gives us a.....I don't think anyone wants that figure skating shit.  So we have to make it less complicated, which makes it more subjective.  I do like the Jam style scoring of just have peoples names on a board based on where you think they go.....take the numbers out all together.  Sometimes a big 360 with a tweak may leave a better impression than a 720, and we need to give that freedom to keep style important.  

My next thought, is make winning less important.  A $100k is nothing to sneeze at for a win.  But the fans don't actually care about that number.  Just brainstorming here.....but if less importance (money) was put on winning.....same total expenditure but more money assigned to accepting the invite, showing up and competing, and less on the results.  This would allow competitors to showcase what they think is rad, with less importance on what the judges think.  There is no definitive correct answer to who wins, so maybe we look at removing the value from that.

Will athletes be willing to risk their lives for stunts with less value placed on winning....would you go bigger with a bigger prize at the end of the tunnel.  Well we are talking about SIGNIFICANT risk of injury or death, so I don't know that we want money to be the motivating factor for that risk.  That just has a weird feeling about it for me.  Compensating guys for showing up and doing things that they want to do for themselves and the sport, that, to me, has a better feeling about it.

Just my thoughts though, I don't know that we're going to solve anything, or that anyone who matters is listening at all.  Fun discussions to have though.

^I don't think anyone is sending those sends for the chance at 100 grand.  Sure the money is nice reward for the winner but it's a lot less life changing than the "rampage winner" designation and proving to yourself you are the best at what you do.  I do think taking that money and dispersing it among the riders as a participation prize is a good idea.  But it's not going to stop the top riders from sending it big.  But big prize money does bring eyeballs (especially kids/teens).  And it's a nice reward for winner.  So hopefully they can provide reasonable participation money and a good prize.

Interesting listen to Brendog's take on things now the dust has settled. Someone in the YT comments claims to know one of the judges who said the scoring was "political".

zink's post-rampage vlog. HEAL UP, YOU BEAST

Yah the bit about "well if we cant be there I hope some new exciting peeps get to" was a nice sentiment. 

that's a bit hard to watch, when you start adding up the injuries he's had.  he makes this hospital trip seem like a normal course of business.  must stress the hell out of his wife and kids.

separately, how do US athletes get their health insurance?

Pick a plan with a low max out of pocket and hope for the best.

fairclough and olly in-the-car chat about the judging via ride companion

It was a joke dude… Mtb is serious business. No jokes allowed!

Darren Berrecloth giving a really good and well presented run down of the scoring at Rampage. I would have preferred for Godziek to have won, but everything Darren is saying is spot on and he is the expert in freeride here, and actually there.

It's already happening in the comments... But unfortunately there is no possible, logical, fathomable way to convince people the judges know what they are doing when Zink wins last year and then TVS gets 4th this year. Meanwhile Godziek probably had the best overall and Rampage-esque run, both years, and didn't win. And then a big slope run from Semenuk can win any year.

So, ultimately, if they want to say that which I believe they have ultimately... Then sure a big slope run is the future of Rampage and that's how you win. Copy Semenuk or lose to Semenuk (or whoever does copy him if you don't).

But the Zink vs TVS scoring the past 2 years, mixed with the inability to give Godziek higher/winning scores both years, just says more or less 'depends how we feel that morning'. Maybe even 'we will change the criteria each year/venue, depending on how we feel'. Internally, basically.

Which is another thing. The apparent judges discussion 'round table' concept they seem to have. That PROBABLY needs to go. That sounds really dope for like fest series or smaller events with less money on the line. But I don't like it for what is chalked up as the biggest event of the year with the most earning potential for this cat of riders.

Also, I'm definitely down with ranking instead of scores/numbers. I don't think it will actually change much. And I understand riders may be against it in terms of debating second runs. But I think putting a number on the different styles is hard. And it's easier to just compare amplitude and difficulty to the OTHER riders, more or less. 

Also the video was... Eh, just didn't say much. And I found the side by side thing he did where he compared Brendog and Luke kinda 'tasteless'. He clearly undersells the Brendog run and overhypes the Luke run like its pointless to just... Remind us that your bias leans that way. I think we already knew that. From the results lol. Showing video proof of you having bias doesn't... Make me ok with the bias?