This isn't really true for pretty much all high pivot designs. In order for the push from the rear chainstays to create antisquat, the pivot would...
This isn't really true for pretty much all high pivot designs. In order for the push from the rear chainstays to create antisquat, the pivot would have to be really, really high.
Draw a virtual line from your rear axle to your center of gravity; when in a pedaling position this is a little bit above your navel for most people. The main pivot (or virtual pivot point) would have to be above this line, otherwise forward acceleration will cause squat, absent of chain tension.
EDIT: sorry, accounting for both the mass of the rider and the bike, the actual center of gravity is going to be lower, but I can't imagine its much lower than where your saddle is during climbing
That is incorrect. Anti-squat counters the compression forces created by the relative rearward shift of the center of mass of the bike+rider, by introducing an opposite force that seeks to extend the suspension at the same time as the rearward transfer of mass happens. This opposing force is generated by the geometry of the rear triangle, created either by the chain tension or the layout of the moving levers or a combination thereof. This does not require the pivot (whether actual or virtual) to be situated above the center of mass. It’s a force that is generated by the rear triangle itself.
As a long time enduro owner I don’t have a problem with the seat angle, I’ve tried other bikes with steeper but don’t like the stair master feeling, but most of my local climbing is techy rocky single track as opposed to fire road. Would like another 40-50mm on stack though, got 40mm of spacers and 40mm bar at 6ft 3 on the S4
As an Enduro owner, I feel like the seat angle is a bit overblown. While it would be nice if it was a bit steeper, it...
As an Enduro owner, I feel like the seat angle is a bit overblown. While it would be nice if it was a bit steeper, it still rides fine and I basically never think about it.
I would argue the fact that so little needs changing after 5 years show how much they nailed the design in the first place. I’m still consistently impressed by how well it pedals for a bike with that much travel.
I'm 6'4" on an S4 (had a S5 and downsized), slide the seat forward and call it a day. Don't really ever think about the STA and it's my only bike currently so it's getting a lot of time pedaling.
This isn't really true for pretty much all high pivot designs. In order for the push from the rear chainstays to create antisquat, the pivot would...
This isn't really true for pretty much all high pivot designs. In order for the push from the rear chainstays to create antisquat, the pivot would have to be really, really high.
Draw a virtual line from your rear axle to your center of gravity; when in a pedaling position this is a little bit above your navel for most people. The main pivot (or virtual pivot point) would have to be above this line, otherwise forward acceleration will cause squat, absent of chain tension.
EDIT: sorry, accounting for both the mass of the rider and the bike, the actual center of gravity is going to be lower, but I can't imagine its much lower than where your saddle is during climbing
That is incorrect. Anti-squat counters the compression forces created by the relative rearward shift of the center of mass of the bike+rider, by introducing an opposite...
That is incorrect. Anti-squat counters the compression forces created by the relative rearward shift of the center of mass of the bike+rider, by introducing an opposite force that seeks to extend the suspension at the same time as the rearward transfer of mass happens. This opposing force is generated by the geometry of the rear triangle, created either by the chain tension or the layout of the moving levers or a combination thereof. This does not require the pivot (whether actual or virtual) to be situated above the center of mass. It’s a force that is generated by the rear triangle itself.
I didn't say "above the CoG", I said the pivot has to be above a virtual line in between the CoG and rear axle.
Without chain growth, acceleration from the rear wheel will cause squat in a suspension design that pivots around a location below this imaginary line.
If it were not the case, where exactly is the point for a pivot to be at the "break even" spot where acceleration stops producing squat and starts producing antisquat?
I'm 6'4" on an S4 (had a S5 and downsized), slide the seat forward and call it a day. Don't really ever think about the STA...
I'm 6'4" on an S4 (had a S5 and downsized), slide the seat forward and call it a day. Don't really ever think about the STA and it's my only bike currently so it's getting a lot of time pedaling.
Yeah, I’m not saying the seat tube angle is a deal breaker (I’ve got my seat all the way forward), but I definitely feel the Enduro could use a light refresh before the whole new design. Maybe they just skipped it for covid reasons.
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is on the new un-announced Maxxis casing that they've been developing for a while. I'm sure partially or wholly in response to Continental. Neko mentioned that Maxxis was working on casings for a while but they weren't going to be ready for the 2024 season so they went to Continental for the higher performance envelope of their tires. I'm assuming Maxxis is tooling up to get the DHR2 and Assegai ready to ship with this new casing before coming out with the news. Sounds official launch is still ~2 months away though. The tire casing wars heating up lately!
I didn't say "above the CoG", I said the pivot has to be above a virtual line in between the CoG and rear axle. Without chain growth...
I didn't say "above the CoG", I said the pivot has to be above a virtual line in between the CoG and rear axle.
Without chain growth, acceleration from the rear wheel will cause squat in a suspension design that pivots around a location below this imaginary line.
If it were not the case, where exactly is the point for a pivot to be at the "break even" spot where acceleration stops producing squat and starts producing antisquat?
Looks like a new Schwalbe mud tyre in the works having looked through the tech randoms on the other site. Have noticed lots of teams cutting the sidewall knobs off the current dirty dan - the new one looks more like a 3-2-2 tread but with a more spikier shape to the knobs.
I didn't say "above the CoG", I said the pivot has to be above a virtual line in between the CoG and rear axle. Without chain growth...
I didn't say "above the CoG", I said the pivot has to be above a virtual line in between the CoG and rear axle.
Without chain growth, acceleration from the rear wheel will cause squat in a suspension design that pivots around a location below this imaginary line.
If it were not the case, where exactly is the point for a pivot to be at the "break even" spot where acceleration stops producing squat and starts producing antisquat?
OK, we're fully derailing this, but let's conclude the discussion anyway 😀
The pivot is NEVER going to be above the line between the CoG and the rear axle. Imagine what that bike would like like.
Here are some crude drawings I made to illustrate how anti-squat works. First, we have to understand what causes the bike the squat. The force introduced by pedaling makes the rear wheel turn, pushing backwards against the ground (blue arrow below). This causes the bike to accelerate (red arrow at the wheel). Because this force is applied way below the center of mass (the circle with the X in it), the mass effectively gets "left behind" during the acceleration, thus shifting the weight back over the rear wheel, causing the suspension to compress. This is extra annoying on a pedal bike, because the acceleration force is not constant, it ebbs and flows with every pedal stroke. If left unchecked, this bobbing causes a lot of energy loss.
OK, so onto anti-squat. In a linkage layout designed to combat squat (such as the Horst link depicted below), the force of the chain (which caused the bike to accelerate) is ALSO used to counteract the force caused by the rearward shift of the mass. This is achieved by placing the pivots of the rear triangle in such a way as to cause chain growth when the suspension compresses (i.e. the distance between the top of the chainring and the top of the cassette cog upon which the chain is resting becomes longer when the suspension compresses). When you then introduce a force vector along the chain, it causes the suspension to extend (the reverse action of chain growth). This is a mechanical movement that occurs in the linkage itself, it has nothing to do with a force being applied above the line from CoG to rear axle. Note that the main pivot point in this design (whether actual or virtual) is usually found somewhere on the same level or slightly above the rear axle. Anti-squat is measured as a number, 100 is basically when the force compressing the suspension (caused by the rearward movement of the mass) is equal to the force extending the suspension (generated in this case by the chain pulling on the linkages, causing the swingarm to move downwards).
And to conclude, the high-pivot with idler. Here, the anti-squat force is generated by the placement of the forward pivot at a point well above the rear axle. This means that any force applied to the rear axle in the forward direction below the main pivot will cause the connecting member (the swingarm) to want to rotate downwards, thus counteracting the squat-inducing force caused by the forward acceleration. This can be achieved without any chain growth if the idler is placed exactly inline with the main pivot. You can also play with the placement of the idler to add or subtract some "extra" anti-squat properties.
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is...
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is on the new un-announced Maxxis casing that they've been developing for a while. I'm sure partially or wholly in response to Continental. Neko mentioned that Maxxis was working on casings for a while but they weren't going to be ready for the 2024 season so they went to Continental for the higher performance envelope of their tires. I'm assuming Maxxis is tooling up to get the DHR2 and Assegai ready to ship with this new casing before coming out with the news. Sounds official launch is still ~2 months away though. The tire casing wars heating up lately!
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the drum that the new maxxis will be the best evvvarr. Rumour has it they may even have straight casings, no signature wobble
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is...
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is on the new un-announced Maxxis casing that they've been developing for a while. I'm sure partially or wholly in response to Continental. Neko mentioned that Maxxis was working on casings for a while but they weren't going to be ready for the 2024 season so they went to Continental for the higher performance envelope of their tires. I'm assuming Maxxis is tooling up to get the DHR2 and Assegai ready to ship with this new casing before coming out with the news. Sounds official launch is still ~2 months away though. The tire casing wars heating up lately!
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the...
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the drum that the new maxxis will be the best evvvarr. Rumour has it they may even have straight casings, no signature wobble
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti, WTB, and Vittoria on the mountain side.
Looks like a new Schwalbe mud tyre in the works having looked through the tech randoms on the other site. Have noticed lots of teams cutting...
Looks like a new Schwalbe mud tyre in the works having looked through the tech randoms on the other site. Have noticed lots of teams cutting the sidewall knobs off the current dirty dan - the new one looks more like a 3-2-2 tread but with a more spikier shape to the knobs.
You're looking at the recently released Shredda Rear tire.
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is...
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is on the new un-announced Maxxis casing that they've been developing for a while. I'm sure partially or wholly in response to Continental. Neko mentioned that Maxxis was working on casings for a while but they weren't going to be ready for the 2024 season so they went to Continental for the higher performance envelope of their tires. I'm assuming Maxxis is tooling up to get the DHR2 and Assegai ready to ship with this new casing before coming out with the news. Sounds official launch is still ~2 months away though. The tire casing wars heating up lately!
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the...
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the drum that the new maxxis will be the best evvvarr. Rumour has it they may even have straight casings, no signature wobble
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti...
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti, WTB, and Vittoria on the mountain side.
Looks like a new Schwalbe mud tyre in the works having looked through the tech randoms on the other site. Have noticed lots of teams cutting...
Looks like a new Schwalbe mud tyre in the works having looked through the tech randoms on the other site. Have noticed lots of teams cutting the sidewall knobs off the current dirty dan - the new one looks more like a 3-2-2 tread but with a more spikier shape to the knobs.
It's their new ebike Shredda tyres which came out this year.
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the...
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the drum that the new maxxis will be the best evvvarr. Rumour has it they may even have straight casings, no signature wobble
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti...
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti, WTB, and Vittoria on the mountain side.
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti...
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti, WTB, and Vittoria on the mountain side.
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is...
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is on the new un-announced Maxxis casing that they've been developing for a while. I'm sure partially or wholly in response to Continental. Neko mentioned that Maxxis was working on casings for a while but they weren't going to be ready for the 2024 season so they went to Continental for the higher performance envelope of their tires. I'm assuming Maxxis is tooling up to get the DHR2 and Assegai ready to ship with this new casing before coming out with the news. Sounds official launch is still ~2 months away though. The tire casing wars heating up lately!
Can someone (else) do the math on how many SKUs that's gonna add to the Maxxis MTB line? Last time I tried my spreadsheet melted...
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is...
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is on the new un-announced Maxxis casing that they've been developing for a while. I'm sure partially or wholly in response to Continental. Neko mentioned that Maxxis was working on casings for a while but they weren't going to be ready for the 2024 season so they went to Continental for the higher performance envelope of their tires. I'm assuming Maxxis is tooling up to get the DHR2 and Assegai ready to ship with this new casing before coming out with the news. Sounds official launch is still ~2 months away though. The tire casing wars heating up lately!
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the...
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the drum that the new maxxis will be the best evvvarr. Rumour has it they may even have straight casings, no signature wobble
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti...
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti, WTB, and Vittoria on the mountain side.
All my kryptotal's & Argotal's didnt have a wobble. I've returned 5+ maxxis that wobbled.
In fairness I've Also had alot of maxxis that didnt wobble.
All my kryptotal's & Argotal's didnt have a wobble. I've returned 5+ maxxis that wobbled.
In fairness I've Also had alot of maxxis that didnt wobble.
Same experience with the DH casing ones, but the trail casing one I had on the short travel bike got unusable after two bike park runs, it warped so badly it was almost touching the frame.
Quick scroll though and I didn’t see this yet. Bottom of semis right now and noticed yet another new addition to Myriam’s commencal.Edit: Amaury on it...
Quick scroll though and I didn’t see this yet. Bottom of semis right now and noticed yet another new addition to Myriam’s commencal.
Edit: Amaury on it too.
Did I miss a discussion about the NDS steel chainstay? Only seen it on the drive side up until now...
Floating brakes making a comeback? The Foes 2 pages back has one too...
I'd say they are testing some things. After all, they moved the pivot from seatstay to the chainstay and back. On a 6bar bike this will give a different result just like moving it on a 4 bar (single pivot vs. Horst link).
Quick scroll though and I didn’t see this yet. Bottom of semis right now and noticed yet another new addition to Myriam’s commencal.Edit: Amaury on it...
Quick scroll though and I didn’t see this yet. Bottom of semis right now and noticed yet another new addition to Myriam’s commencal.
Edit: Amaury on it too.
Amaury's too, and they found some paint for his stays. 😅
Same experience with the DH casing ones, but the trail casing one I had on the short travel bike got unusable after two bike park runs...
Same experience with the DH casing ones, but the trail casing one I had on the short travel bike got unusable after two bike park runs, it warped so badly it was almost touching the frame.
Quick scroll though and I didn’t see this yet. Bottom of semis right now and noticed yet another new addition to Myriam’s commencal.Edit: Amaury on it...
Quick scroll though and I didn’t see this yet. Bottom of semis right now and noticed yet another new addition to Myriam’s commencal.
That is incorrect. Anti-squat counters the compression forces created by the relative rearward shift of the center of mass of the bike+rider, by introducing an opposite force that seeks to extend the suspension at the same time as the rearward transfer of mass happens. This opposing force is generated by the geometry of the rear triangle, created either by the chain tension or the layout of the moving levers or a combination thereof. This does not require the pivot (whether actual or virtual) to be situated above the center of mass. It’s a force that is generated by the rear triangle itself.
As a long time enduro owner I don’t have a problem with the seat angle, I’ve tried other bikes with steeper but don’t like the stair master feeling, but most of my local climbing is techy rocky single track as opposed to fire road. Would like another 40-50mm on stack though, got 40mm of spacers and 40mm bar at 6ft 3 on the S4
I appreciate that my flippant comment about being amused by seeing o-chains on idler bikes has sparked such an in depth suspension debate.
I'm 6'4" on an S4 (had a S5 and downsized), slide the seat forward and call it a day. Don't really ever think about the STA and it's my only bike currently so it's getting a lot of time pedaling.
I didn't say "above the CoG", I said the pivot has to be above a virtual line in between the CoG and rear axle.
Without chain growth, acceleration from the rear wheel will cause squat in a suspension design that pivots around a location below this imaginary line.
If it were not the case, where exactly is the point for a pivot to be at the "break even" spot where acceleration stops producing squat and starts producing antisquat?
Yeah, I’m not saying the seat tube angle is a deal breaker (I’ve got my seat all the way forward), but I definitely feel the Enduro could use a light refresh before the whole new design.
Maybe they just skipped it for covid reasons.
So as was sort of pointed out a bit earlier in this thread... Dak's interview confirms that the High Roller 3 (at least DH version) is on the new un-announced Maxxis casing that they've been developing for a while. I'm sure partially or wholly in response to Continental. Neko mentioned that Maxxis was working on casings for a while but they weren't going to be ready for the 2024 season so they went to Continental for the higher performance envelope of their tires. I'm assuming Maxxis is tooling up to get the DHR2 and Assegai ready to ship with this new casing before coming out with the news. Sounds official launch is still ~2 months away though. The tire casing wars heating up lately!
Looks like a new Schwalbe mud tyre in the works having looked through the tech randoms on the other site. Have noticed lots of teams cutting the sidewall knobs off the current dirty dan - the new one looks more like a 3-2-2 tread but with a more spikier shape to the knobs.
OK, we're fully derailing this, but let's conclude the discussion anyway 😀
The pivot is NEVER going to be above the line between the CoG and the rear axle. Imagine what that bike would like like.
Here are some crude drawings I made to illustrate how anti-squat works. First, we have to understand what causes the bike the squat. The force introduced by pedaling makes the rear wheel turn, pushing backwards against the ground (blue arrow below). This causes the bike to accelerate (red arrow at the wheel). Because this force is applied way below the center of mass (the circle with the X in it), the mass effectively gets "left behind" during the acceleration, thus shifting the weight back over the rear wheel, causing the suspension to compress. This is extra annoying on a pedal bike, because the acceleration force is not constant, it ebbs and flows with every pedal stroke. If left unchecked, this bobbing causes a lot of energy loss.
OK, so onto anti-squat. In a linkage layout designed to combat squat (such as the Horst link depicted below), the force of the chain (which caused the bike to accelerate) is ALSO used to counteract the force caused by the rearward shift of the mass. This is achieved by placing the pivots of the rear triangle in such a way as to cause chain growth when the suspension compresses (i.e. the distance between the top of the chainring and the top of the cassette cog upon which the chain is resting becomes longer when the suspension compresses). When you then introduce a force vector along the chain, it causes the suspension to extend (the reverse action of chain growth). This is a mechanical movement that occurs in the linkage itself, it has nothing to do with a force being applied above the line from CoG to rear axle. Note that the main pivot point in this design (whether actual or virtual) is usually found somewhere on the same level or slightly above the rear axle. Anti-squat is measured as a number, 100 is basically when the force compressing the suspension (caused by the rearward movement of the mass) is equal to the force extending the suspension (generated in this case by the chain pulling on the linkages, causing the swingarm to move downwards).
And to conclude, the high-pivot with idler. Here, the anti-squat force is generated by the placement of the forward pivot at a point well above the rear axle. This means that any force applied to the rear axle in the forward direction below the main pivot will cause the connecting member (the swingarm) to want to rotate downwards, thus counteracting the squat-inducing force caused by the forward acceleration. This can be achieved without any chain growth if the idler is placed exactly inline with the main pivot. You can also play with the placement of the idler to add or subtract some "extra" anti-squat properties.
Mass confusion for the maxxis fanboys. Theyre wondering if they should meltdown at the mention of conti and schwalbe being better tires or start beating the drum that the new maxxis will be the best evvvarr. Rumour has it they may even have straight casings, no signature wobble
Mentalities like this make me chuckle because I don't think I've ever had a casing of any tire that didn't wobble. Been on Pirelli, Maxxis, Conti, WTB, and Vittoria on the mountain side.
You're looking at the recently released Shredda Rear tire.
Speci rolls pure @ 1/3 the cost
It's their new ebike Shredda tyres which came out this year.
Seen plenty of them that are quite noodly as well.
Honestly judging by your name I’d say it’s a personal problem 🤠
Can someone (else) do the math on how many SKUs that's gonna add to the Maxxis MTB line? Last time I tried my spreadsheet melted...
All my kryptotal's & Argotal's didnt have a wobble.
I've returned 5+ maxxis that wobbled.
In fairness I've Also had alot of maxxis that didnt wobble.
Same experience with the DH casing ones, but the trail casing one I had on the short travel bike got unusable after two bike park runs, it warped so badly it was almost touching the frame.
Quick scroll though and I didn’t see this yet. Bottom of semis right now and noticed yet another new addition to Myriam’s commencal.
Edit: Amaury on it too.
Did I miss a discussion about the NDS steel chainstay? Only seen it on the drive side up until now...
Floating brakes making a comeback? The Foes 2 pages back has one too...
I think it was never one sided?
I'd say they are testing some things. After all, they moved the pivot from seatstay to the chainstay and back. On a 6bar bike this will give a different result just like moving it on a 4 bar (single pivot vs. Horst link).
Amaury's too, and they found some paint for his stays. 😅
Edit; Killed me with your edit Jesse! 🤣
Horses for courses
Found these pics from Ft. William and they're painted there too: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/even-more-tech-randoms-fort-william-world-cup.html
Guess I haven't been paying close enough attention...
Good spot. 👍
Pinkbike says 8th bar anti-rise mod.
Engineer: "How many points of articulation should the rear suspension have?"
Max Commencal: "Yes."
The true n+1, where n is the number of bars