MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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boozed
Posts
723
Joined
6/11/2019
Location
AU
8/18/2023 4:25pm Edited Date/Time 8/18/2023 9:05pm
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It...

For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams. 

The 205 mm 2021 X2 I have here weighs 663 g with hardware and one spacer.  The 2021 Super Deluxe Coil that replaced it on my bike is somewhere around 900 g, give or take, with a standard Rockshox 79 N/mm spring.

monarchmason
Posts
328
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA, USA
8/18/2023 5:28pm
Primoz wrote:
Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the...

Needle bearings carry a lot of load for their size (the surface area of the race and rolling element contacting each other is high, thus the pressures are low), but there are hardly any needle bearings out there that come as a cartridge, with seals, they don't carry axial loads (deep groove ball bearings hold up surprisingly well in that regard), etc.

For specific applications they can be great. In a shock eyelet I'd give them a pass. DU bushings are way too cheap and modern bearing mounts work too well (I'm on my original bearings in my Super Deluxe after 4 and a half seasons and 450+k vertical meters of descending).

Lefty had needle beerings for that reason.

Lefty had needle beerings for that reason.

image-20230817141802-1

Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the Intend Bandit. It was not perfect, but given the more recent capabilities in manufacturing, we could probably make it a lot better these days. Ive heard from many (at the time) that when it was working normally, the last iteration of the Lefty was awesome. 
I know some hate the look of them, but we for some reason we have accepted massive pregnant downtube bikes to be a thing, kind of. Maybe Im not disturbed by lefty because I have not very symmetric body so its okay with me. I dont know just has me wondering. 

7
dolface
Posts
1715
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
USA
8/18/2023 5:54pm
Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the...

Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the Intend Bandit. It was not perfect, but given the more recent capabilities in manufacturing, we could probably make it a lot better these days. Ive heard from many (at the time) that when it was working normally, the last iteration of the Lefty was awesome. 
I know some hate the look of them, but we for some reason we have accepted massive pregnant downtube bikes to be a thing, kind of. Maybe Im not disturbed by lefty because I have not very symmetric body so its okay with me. I dont know just has me wondering. 

Bikers: We want innovation!

Also bikers: Not THAT much innovation!

14
monarchmason
Posts
328
Joined
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Location
Nevada City, CA, USA
8/18/2023 6:01pm
dolface wrote:

Bikers: We want innovation!

Also bikers: Not THAT much innovation!

Really bugs me that aesthetics dictate so much with mountain biking. 

9
8/18/2023 7:33pm

I snagged photos of a few slalom bikes from the Strait Acres Slalom Invitational happening today/tomorrow for those who also love seeing how people mod bikes for such a specialized form of racing. 

https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/slalom-bikes-2023-strait-acres…

Personal fav - Mitch Ropelato's custom Cannondale / Kyle Strait's custom Vitus / Cody Kelley's Spesh Stumpjumper

image-20230818193237-1

image-20230818193252-2

image-20230818193317-3

13
1
lando
Posts
78
Joined
4/6/2017
Location
Missoula, MT, USA
8/19/2023 10:15am
sspomer wrote:
We Are One on the Inside Line is up - Dustin discusses racing and life and the second half is about the company, non-overseas production, products...

We Are One on the Inside Line is up - Dustin discusses racing and life and the second half is about the company, non-overseas production, products, future etc. on youtube (slideshow, not video of interview) or podcast channels too.

https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/we-are-one-inside-line-mountain-bike-…

WeAreOneA.jpg?VersionId=Fgpw8UN hld5YJb3eLErt

WR1 cranks and hubs?! Take my money now!

4
Onawalk
Posts
344
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
8/19/2023 1:29pm
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It...

For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams. 

If my vest had sleeves, it would be a jacket….

you’re comparing a coil in-line shock designed for a Spur, with an air shock (with piggyback) designed for a Spire or TR-11, and are surprised that they are in fact close on weight?

 

10
3
HexonJuan
Posts
407
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
USA
8/20/2023 12:29pm
Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the...

Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the Intend Bandit. It was not perfect, but given the more recent capabilities in manufacturing, we could probably make it a lot better these days. Ive heard from many (at the time) that when it was working normally, the last iteration of the Lefty was awesome. 
I know some hate the look of them, but we for some reason we have accepted massive pregnant downtube bikes to be a thing, kind of. Maybe Im not disturbed by lefty because I have not very symmetric body so its okay with me. I dont know just has me wondering. 

dolface wrote:

Bikers: We want innovation!

Also bikers: Not THAT much innovation!

See Also: Linkage forks.

10
dolface
Posts
1715
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
USA
8/20/2023 12:59pm
lando wrote:

WR1 cranks and hubs?! Take my money now!

Dustin seemed pretty solid that they were NOT going to be making hubs iirc...

8/20/2023 6:22pm Edited Date/Time 8/20/2023 6:23pm
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It...

For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams. 

boozed wrote:
The 205 mm 2021 X2 I have here weighs 663 g with hardware and one spacer.  The 2021 Super Deluxe Coil that replaced it on my...

The 205 mm 2021 X2 I have here weighs 663 g with hardware and one spacer.  The 2021 Super Deluxe Coil that replaced it on my bike is somewhere around 900 g, give or take, with a standard Rockshox 79 N/mm spring.

Can confirm my 210x55 Vivid with Levo mounting hardware weighed in at 674.4 grams. Supr Deluxe Air weighed in at 478 grams for the same length. 

My 230x65 Super Deluxe Coil with RS coil (500 pound) came in at 1,040 grams

4
boozed
Posts
723
Joined
6/11/2019
Location
AU
8/21/2023 1:14am
For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It...

For the 65mm stroke vivid, claimed weight is 670 grams. I just weighed my Cane Creek IL with a 450-550# coil on it, 63mm stroke. It is 720 grams. The EXT Storia is lighter for this size, but I don't remember off the top of my head the exact weight. Kinda kills the point of an air shock for me if I'm only saving 50 grams. 

boozed wrote:
The 205 mm 2021 X2 I have here weighs 663 g with hardware and one spacer.  The 2021 Super Deluxe Coil that replaced it on my...

The 205 mm 2021 X2 I have here weighs 663 g with hardware and one spacer.  The 2021 Super Deluxe Coil that replaced it on my bike is somewhere around 900 g, give or take, with a standard Rockshox 79 N/mm spring.

Spinthatup wrote:
Can confirm my 210x55 Vivid with Levo mounting hardware weighed in at 674.4 grams. Supr Deluxe Air weighed in at 478 grams for the same length. ...

Can confirm my 210x55 Vivid with Levo mounting hardware weighed in at 674.4 grams. Supr Deluxe Air weighed in at 478 grams for the same length. 

My 230x65 Super Deluxe Coil with RS coil (500 pound) came in at 1,040 grams

Blimey, I got off lightly...

...

Sorry.  Does anyone have any news on a new Scott Ransom?

1
kcy4130
Posts
319
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
USA
8/21/2023 6:05am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2023 6:10am
Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the...

Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the Intend Bandit. It was not perfect, but given the more recent capabilities in manufacturing, we could probably make it a lot better these days. Ive heard from many (at the time) that when it was working normally, the last iteration of the Lefty was awesome. 
I know some hate the look of them, but we for some reason we have accepted massive pregnant downtube bikes to be a thing, kind of. Maybe Im not disturbed by lefty because I have not very symmetric body so its okay with me. I dont know just has me wondering. 

I think the main drawback with the lefty is that damper and airspring have to be on the same side in the same tube. That puts a lot of limitations on the designs and sizing of both, I believe. Might also complicate servicing. Some people swear by them, I've never ridden one so have no idea? Why do normal two legged forks not use needle bearings instead of bushings? Achieving the tight tolerances and near mirror finish required is easier on a shaft and bushing than three (or four) flats and corresponding housing. Two legs would have to be aligned and clocked instead of just aligned. Thus more chances for binding or added friction, the tolerancing would be a nightmare. Also needle bearings would have to run on hardended and polished steel inserts, aluminum just can't take the surface pressure from them. So weight and even more complicated manufacturing. That's why bushings are the norm. 

Edit: lefty size limitations are worsened as fork travel increases as well. Probably why lefty stayed in the xc to trail realm. Out of curiosity anyone know what the longest travel lefty was? 

2
dolface
Posts
1715
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
USA
8/21/2023 6:54am
kcy4130 wrote:
I think the main drawback with the lefty is that damper and airspring have to be on the same side in the same tube. That puts...

I think the main drawback with the lefty is that damper and airspring have to be on the same side in the same tube. That puts a lot of limitations on the designs and sizing of both, I believe. Might also complicate servicing. Some people swear by them, I've never ridden one so have no idea? Why do normal two legged forks not use needle bearings instead of bushings? Achieving the tight tolerances and near mirror finish required is easier on a shaft and bushing than three (or four) flats and corresponding housing. Two legs would have to be aligned and clocked instead of just aligned. Thus more chances for binding or added friction, the tolerancing would be a nightmare. Also needle bearings would have to run on hardended and polished steel inserts, aluminum just can't take the surface pressure from them. So weight and even more complicated manufacturing. That's why bushings are the norm. 

Edit: lefty size limitations are worsened as fork travel increases as well. Probably why lefty stayed in the xc to trail realm. Out of curiosity anyone know what the longest travel lefty was? 

I think the Lefty Max went to 140mm...

2
1
monarchmason
Posts
328
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA, USA
8/21/2023 7:54am
Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the...

Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the Intend Bandit. It was not perfect, but given the more recent capabilities in manufacturing, we could probably make it a lot better these days. Ive heard from many (at the time) that when it was working normally, the last iteration of the Lefty was awesome. 
I know some hate the look of them, but we for some reason we have accepted massive pregnant downtube bikes to be a thing, kind of. Maybe Im not disturbed by lefty because I have not very symmetric body so its okay with me. I dont know just has me wondering. 

kcy4130 wrote:
I think the main drawback with the lefty is that damper and airspring have to be on the same side in the same tube. That puts...

I think the main drawback with the lefty is that damper and airspring have to be on the same side in the same tube. That puts a lot of limitations on the designs and sizing of both, I believe. Might also complicate servicing. Some people swear by them, I've never ridden one so have no idea? Why do normal two legged forks not use needle bearings instead of bushings? Achieving the tight tolerances and near mirror finish required is easier on a shaft and bushing than three (or four) flats and corresponding housing. Two legs would have to be aligned and clocked instead of just aligned. Thus more chances for binding or added friction, the tolerancing would be a nightmare. Also needle bearings would have to run on hardended and polished steel inserts, aluminum just can't take the surface pressure from them. So weight and even more complicated manufacturing. That's why bushings are the norm. 

Edit: lefty size limitations are worsened as fork travel increases as well. Probably why lefty stayed in the xc to trail realm. Out of curiosity anyone know what the longest travel lefty was? 

Supermax was at 160 for the Jekyll. All that makes sense. But I know with mordern manufacturing it is doable. Hell, they could add a Vorsprung secus like, negative chamber. Just seems like a good way to go when you want to make a very precise feeling fork, keeping weight down, and making it strong. Or even then, intend bandit. That one definitely surprises me that we do not utilize that sort of design more often. Having a Zeb lower with an air shaft side Boxxer stanchion. Id buy that for rough trail riding. 

2
Primoz
Posts
4686
Joined
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Location
SI
8/21/2023 8:02am

A lot of things are "easily" doable, modern capabilities or not. The limiting factor more often than not becomes the price. 

7
Onawalk
Posts
344
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
8/21/2023 1:02pm
Primoz wrote:

A lot of things are "easily" doable, modern capabilities or not. The limiting factor more often than not becomes the price. 

$2500 “transmissions” would lead me to believe that price isn’t actually the limiting factor, marketability, aesthetics, and what they think will sell likely has more to do with it.

How many people do we see riding around on factory level suspension that don’t actually know how to, or ever bother to check suspension sag.  Price can’t be the issue

15
Primoz
Posts
4686
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
8/21/2023 1:07pm

I'm guessing 'bzt bzt' sounds are much more easily sold than buttery smooth suspension. Can't see/hear the buttery smooth suspension. And your factory level suspension comment confirms it even more Tongue

3
nicompr
Posts
55
Joined
12/9/2021
Location
Villes, FR
8/22/2023 5:20am

New Lapierre Spicy incoming. 29 or MX, 180 front and rear and suspension layout à la new Mondraker Summum. Price will be high and no pros ridden it yet...

7
1
One Ghost
Posts
163
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Tacoma, WA, USA
8/22/2023 9:23am
Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the...

Im probably going to get ripped apart for this, but it really surprises me that we do not have more forks like the Lefty or the Intend Bandit. It was not perfect, but given the more recent capabilities in manufacturing, we could probably make it a lot better these days. Ive heard from many (at the time) that when it was working normally, the last iteration of the Lefty was awesome. 
I know some hate the look of them, but we for some reason we have accepted massive pregnant downtube bikes to be a thing, kind of. Maybe Im not disturbed by lefty because I have not very symmetric body so its okay with me. I dont know just has me wondering. 

dolface wrote:

Bikers: We want innovation!

Also bikers: Not THAT much innovation!

HexonJuan wrote:

See Also: Linkage forks.

Specialized does own the Trust design now. Though my guess is we will see that on gravel bikes from them. 

7
8/23/2023 6:35am
Primoz wrote:
I'm guessing 'bzt bzt' sounds are much more easily sold than buttery smooth suspension. Can't see/hear the buttery smooth suspension. And your factory level suspension comment...

I'm guessing 'bzt bzt' sounds are much more easily sold than buttery smooth suspension. Can't see/hear the buttery smooth suspension. And your factory level suspension comment confirms it even more Tongue

Clearly the next big innovation in forks from rockshox will be a stanchion coating you can ice skate over ;p

2
sspomer
Posts
6336
Joined
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Location
Boise, ID, USA
Fantasy
8/23/2023 10:20am

pit  bits andorra

 

4
sharpy212
Posts
232
Joined
12/18/2015
Location
GB
8/23/2023 11:05am

Ergon grips on TB bikes look like something new 

8/23/2023 11:13am
sharpy212 wrote:

Ergon grips on TB bikes look like something new 

Yep i noticed that aswell.
I know its not new but a few people I know would really benefit from going down in front rotor size as troys mechanic describes.

2
AndehM
Posts
799
Joined
5/7/2018
Location
El Granada, CA, USA
Fantasy
8/23/2023 11:16am
sharpy212 wrote:

Ergon grips on TB bikes look like something new 

They announced them a month or so ago but AFAIK aren't available retail yet.  Pros have been running them all season.  I agree, they look like an interesting alternative to ODI Elite Pros - maybe a little bit more cushion on the outer edge of the grip before the flange.

2
Primoz
Posts
4686
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
8/23/2023 12:41pm

The Norco DH bike is part of the team bits and the progression adjustability without changing shock settings has been mentioned again. Maybe it's adjusting progression but keeping the sag point the same and that is part of the reason settings don't need to be changed? How does this work with other systems that enable progression tuning, does the spring rate need to be adjusted when you change the flip chips?

1
8/23/2023 1:12pm
Primoz wrote:
The Norco DH bike is part of the team bits and the progression adjustability without changing shock settings has been mentioned again. Maybe it's adjusting progression...

The Norco DH bike is part of the team bits and the progression adjustability without changing shock settings has been mentioned again. Maybe it's adjusting progression but keeping the sag point the same and that is part of the reason settings don't need to be changed? How does this work with other systems that enable progression tuning, does the spring rate need to be adjusted when you change the flip chips?

If you keep travel the same and increase progression you usually get a higher leverage ratio at the sag point. If you keep the leverage at sag the same you generally loose a little travel. On a bike like the enduro, the flip chip does actually increase average leverage ratio if you put it in the high setting. Fairly similar to running a mullet yoke on that bike as it’s only something like 1.5mm shorter. Lots of bikes have changes to kinematics that aren’t mentioned when talking about what a particular flip chip does. It’s more of a question of whether or not the change is large enough to care about. 

7
19flo09
Posts
2
Joined
9/14/2022
Location
DE
8/23/2023 1:18pm
sspomer wrote:
pit  bits andorra  

pit  bits andorra

 

At 2:12 the disc looks like an updated version of the Galfer Shark Disc without fins and 4 rows of holes instead of 3.

8/23/2023 5:19pm

Might be missing something, but has anyone else noticed that the new SRAM calipers are 90% of the time only on the rear end with the current caliper up front? Interesting how a rear specific caliper might be different... I know Troy runs a bigger rotor on the rear for more power, so maybe it's to do with a power increase?

2
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