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Good to see my predictions are ringing true.
Just my $0.02 but if a fraction of the time went into real, actionable, community focused efforts the sport would in fact be more inclusive, open and (frankly) rad. For all the do-gooders in this thread, play your actions forward. Lets say your really mean emails get the company to issue a press release apologizing. Man, do you feel good, what a victory. But what really changes? As far as I can tell, absolutely nothing. If you think you'll stop the utilization of sex in advertising I'd suggest you get your head out of your ass. Sorry if I seem crass, but the self importance, gnarcissism and sensitivity required for some of the positions being taken here is nauseating. Pick better battles and realize everything doesn't have to appease you or be about you. Free country, free speech, capitalism bla bla bla.
Ranting and raving about something on the internet is a giant waste of time (I realize the irony to this statement), take it from someone who did a bunch of it back in the day. Go help someone on the trail, give the dusty hardtail to a person who may not have the means to get into the sport, grab a shovel and help make the local "green" trail a thing, wrench on a newer riders bike, introduce mountain biking to someone who is interested, coach someone who wants to be coached, be a good person. This seems a much better approach if your goal is for mountain biking to be more inclusive, open & approachable. f"But what about XYZ minority/special interest/bla bla bla group". Unpopular opinion but the most inclusive thing we could all do is to offer the same opportunity to all, making gender, skin color, sexual preference, or any other slice and dice of society as important as hair color. Otherwise, we're destined to play the Victim Olympics in perpetuity & for all; so far that experiment doesn't seem to be panning out if your goal is an actual improvement of society, culture, sport or quality of life.
...but hey, do as you wish. I am 1000% sure how this sort of thing turns out.
I’d highly disagree that the sq labs ad is less sexist then the old marzocchi stuff.
jenna Jameson is an incredibly successful women in the field she choose to participate in. So much so she broke into the mainstream and was able to make money modeling for a suspension manufacturer. Now sure she is offensive to plenty of people and certainly not someone I’d choose to associate my business with. But I ain’t got no problem with a women owning her sexuality and profiting off it or showing it off. Rich talked about the how much a difference maker it can be for a sports women to be posting bikini pics on the gram on his inside line. Which is something I have no problem with at all.
But putting 4 pictures of asses in panties on a link to selling seat saddles is simply lame. I have an issue that someone like Jill kitner can’t compete on their accomplishments on the gram with Kate Courtney cause ones a bit cute. Worse yet there are plenty of unaccomplished cyclists (Courtney is a world champ being cute ain’t her problem) with large followings and more sponsorships just because they ride a bike and post stuff that grab men’s attention by the phallus than top 15 racers. But I don’t know how you stop dudes clicking on their phone with their dicks. Or behaving with their dicks in life. And a ton of companies value being seen and plenty also know sex sells.
Nowadsys I notice when bike product chooses to pay a model over a rad bike rider. Whether it be for a single ad or an ambassador deal. But you definitely see a lot of companies go that route especially for apparel.
But there are a ton of brands doing it right. I only have seen the women’s scene grow locally and in media. And the main turnoff will always be the sport itself. The daughters of this gen riders will have it better though because of the work of the people who care to try to do things right.
I think there seems to be a zero-sum problem here. One can, and in my opinion should, look to create a better community while doing the work as well.
I can only speak for myself in full, but I am executive director for a statewide environmental education and outdoor learning nonprofit that serves children in a majority-minority state with the largest per capita Latino population in the country. Before that I ran a mountain biking advocacy organization that built singletrack, supported NICA, taught riding and maintenance clinics, raised funds to give away literally hundreds of bikes, and worked to ensure access for all.
I've personally clocked over 2200 hours over trail building and maintenance over the last 28 years, taught dozens of bike maintenance classes at high schools, and at least 50 riding clinics for kids and adults.
Does that mean that I don't want things to be better for everyone? of course not. If I spend my time trying to have conversations that might create a more inviting atmosphere for others, I feel like that's a reasonable use of my time.
Thanks for having this conversation, and for keeping everything civil.
We don't have to all agree on issues within the sport, but if we're not talking to each other, shitty things can happen.
look at everyone talking about a bike seat ad on the internet. Good or bad. The marketing got the brand noticed in a space where no one typically pays attention. Also. if you don't like ads. run an ad blocker...
Damn it, Charlie. I still don't understand how you are so religious and yet so sensible. It confuses my soul at depths rarely achieved. Keep doing what you do and thank you....you're a good man.
Hi,
Basti from SQlab here,
Sorry for being late, we had a public holiday in Germany, yesterday.
Upfront, I am in charge for int. Marketing here, so it is only me to blame, plus maybe our team rider Stevie, with whom I created the whole campaign idea, which the video is the most important part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nquh2lM75X8
Before I post our official statement, I want to point out first, that on a shooting side, we simply fucked up.
We never wanted the butts to look same and female on the first look. We wanted the widest spread of different butts as possible. But it doesn't come across in the add, obviously.
Second, to compare it to the old Marzocchi stuff, really? If a big, hairy guy in a string tanga would stand next to a model, then maybe yes.
Third, as another user stated, all you see, you see at any beach. In Germany sometimes even more, because we have nudist beaches, quite a few of them. Simply a cultural difference.
Anyway, I do hope the official statement brings across our motivations behind the campaign.
Still, again, I agree: we failed on execution level, and do primise that we will never, ever again, create a campaign that is so polarizing, especially because our appraoch and mindset is totally opposite to the concerns that have been brought up here,
-> The official Statement:
_____
At SQlab, we don’t like to think in boxes.
The goal of our products is always to solve a problem, and in order to do that we try our best to be inclusive of as many individual differences in human anatomy as possible. The outcome is that the vast majority of our products are labeled Unisex, and come in many different shapes and sizes.
We are fully aware of the stereotypes floating around when it comes to finding the right saddle. The purpose of the “Find your fit” campaign is to overcome this stereotypical thinking, by visually exaggerating the way a saddle would usually be chosen: through a quick examination of the persons outer appearance. Instead, the first step to finding the right saddle should always be the measurement of the sit bones, which excludes any judgement of gender, age, ethnicity, weight, or height.
In order to create awareness around this topic, we consciously chose to polarize with our campaign and serve as food for thought against the stereotypes that have been around for way too long.
Every model participated in this campaign voluntarily. Four of them identified as female, the other four identified as male, with ages ranging from 24 to 63 years. All of them come from various different cultural and ethnic backgrounds.
_____
I will follow this thread carefully & respond in the name of SQlab,
just note the time difference to Germany, so I won't be able to reply super fast.
I AM VERY SORRY, WE NEVER WANTED TO OFFEND ANYONE & DEEPLY APOLOGIZE,
Basti & the SQlab Team
Always nice to see people admit missing their goals. I mentioned in a previous post the youtube video adds context the banner ad lacks. And you are not wrong about cultural differences regarding nudity. Your ad is outright tame compared to many ads you’d find in many very mainstream German magazines or tv. I remember reading der spiegal in my high school German class and being suprised by ads that were nothing but a company name, a pair of nude breasts, and a phone number or web address.
Hi Basti,
First of all, thank you for the thoughtful response, I'm sure that this was not what you expected to come back to after a holiday!
I would like to celebrate that we can have a civil conversation on Vital, and I am grateful to have you here. My intention for starting this thread was not about punishing SQ Labs for this specific ad, but rather to discuss why the industry as a whole has an issue with woman as adornment. I understand that this was not the intention of the ad- between the ad showing up for most of us on very small screens, the possible cultural differences in gendered views of underwear, and our (my) biases, I don't think the intent came across well.
From the official statement: "In order to create awareness around this topic, we consciously chose to polarize with our campaign and serve as food for thought against the stereotypes that have been around for way too long." As this was a conscious intent of this campaign, I can see that maybe this thread is exactly what you wanted. I feel like anything that increases the awareness of our own bias is beneficial.
I want to say that I have nothing against SQ labs as a company, and definitely do not want this discussion to negatively impact your sales. I also want to clarify that my referencing of Marzocchi's ad campaigns of old were about giving context to my own past missteps and those of the industry as a whole, not to equate them with this specific ad.
I'll balance out the reviews, their saddle is by far the worst saddle I've ever ridden.
Set level I was constantly sliding off the front and therefore putting pressure in the areas it's intended to relieve. Angled up enough to keep from sliding forward and the front puts pressure in the wrong spots. In addition is seems like the saddle forced my hips into a weird rotation and wrecked my lower back for days.
This is worthless without a pic of your butt.
thanks in advance
First a thread about the ad campaign,
now adressing A ) Products & B ) Customer Service?
A )
Yes, some riders don't like SQlab saddles (obviously, see above).
Main reasons for negative product experiences are:
- that riders don't measure their sit bone distance and "guess" their size (often based on width info from previous saddles, but the SQlab Sizing means the effective sitting area, not the overall saddle width, like all the other saddle brands do),
- and / or adjust the saddle wrong (especially height & tilt).
Only a very, very few just don't like the saddle shapes.
We know that it's only a very, very few, because we have been running a 30days worry-free test / return&money-back program since ages in Germany, asking, why they want to give it back.
Our strong recommendation: Please buy your saddles at your LBS, they will measure your sit bone distance, consult you in model & size choice, as well adjustment / setting your bike up perfectly.
Some recent reviews:
Review: The SQlab Range | The Loam Wolf
SQlab 6OX Infinergy Saddle Flexes With the Rider [Review] - Singletracks Mountain Bike News
To Infinergy Or Abscond - SQLab 60X Active Saddles (nsmb.com)
B )
We changed distribution partner for Northern America, last year, which means the US subsidiary of our parent company Boards & More (ION, Duotone, Fanatic) is now in charge for the customer service.
Just saw the ad on a different website... All I can say is that if you're offended by it, you're baby lotion soft and/or a total prude. You're literally zero fun at parties.
I read this thread before I saw the ad and I immediately started laughing my ass off at all the upset folks here. I'm sorry, but you suck.
Man there really are some snow flakes in this world
There is NOTHING inappropriate about a natural normal clothed rear end. Just because they are nice looking butts doesn't make it perverted.
Haven't you guys ever been to the pool, beach, club, etc...?
I guess I need to quote the initial post that I made:
“I would actually not have an issue if it were an underwear ad. I wouldn't even have that much of a problem with it if it were aimed at women riders. Instead, it uses the attention grab of those butts, not in riding shorts, just underwear, to sell products to an overwhelmingly male audience.”
The issue has NOTHING to do with the ad being offensive, or whether the images are appropriate. The discussion was about whether the bike industry’s pattern of advertising is inviting to women and girls. My argument, based on more than a quarter century of working in the industry, is that it has not.
The images of scantily clad models in front of bikes on the walls of bike shops that I managed showed women that their place in the bike world was as adornment. Photos of podium girls in place of podium winners were the norm until fairly recently.
Y’all want to come at me, come at me for what I say.
This is me- https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Carlos-Matutes-Executive-Director-of-…
If you’ve got an issue with me, I’m fine with that, but know what you’re talking about.
This is how underwear is advertised in Aus
My predictions continue to ring true. The company issued an apology, but ultimately nothing will change because you have not drawn a straight enough line between a problem and solution. Your hypothesis (mountain biking isn't inviting to woman) is based on what data exactly? Participation? Are you certain woman and men will always participate in all sports at a 50/50 split? Are you sure butts on a screen is the reason women aren't willing to participate at higher levels?
Despite the woke capture of universities in the United States, there remains a pile of data to suggest gender participation in free and inclusive societies will never be 50/50 (across sport, career, interest) because men and women often prefer different things, have different values and make different choices. Yes, I'm implying men and women *are different* in a number of ways from a statistical perspective. I know I sound like a radical, but I'd argue this is okay (and unchangeable). One thing that is awesome about being human is all the variety, person to person, place to place. Some of this has to do with culture, some with gender, and some with a bazillion other factors that make up "a person". I like to think this is why freedom is so danged cool. Want to read more on this in the context of the mythical "pay gap"? Check here - (it plays into choices/sport too).
Do not misread, the door should always be wide open to any woman (or man) in any sport/career/etc they want to participate in. Aiming for equality of opportunity, not outcome, seems smartest and something within our control. So how exactly does this ad prevent a woman (or anyone) from going to their local bike shop and saying "I'd like to get into mountain biking"? Or more realistically, how does this ad get in the way of the myriad of women who are introduced to the sport by by males - friends, dads, brothers, boyfriends and husbands. The answer? It doesn't. And this is a waste of time.
While I'm sure we can improve messaging to some extent, you are yet to show me that a saddle manufacturer putting butts on a screen somehow detracts from women getting into the sport in a material way. You (a dude) and your wife seems to think this is a negative to the sport in a meaningful way. I (a dude) and my girlfriend does not think so. That's not a study. That's not even a good baseline to an argument at a bar....
Overall this is a super wasteful way to approach the problem of "getting more women into the sport" (if that's your goal). Again, nothing will change because you have not demonstrated the problem nor solution in very concrete ways. The only person who is going to feel anything form this boondoggle is you (and the other do-gooders in this thread) who feel a sense of positive ethical utility when the company "makes a change" - all the while you ignore the scoreboard is ****exactly the same***.
The irony to it all? This was the best spend SQ Labs ever could have made. Look how much interest the ad garnered and look how much extra play its getting - all for free. Suckers.
Hey I don’t expect mtb to be 50/50. But it would be pretty sick if it wasn’t nearly 100 to 1. And while it is anecdotal, I know plenty of women who are turned off the sport (especially public participation whether in line or in person) because the behavior of men.
again I’m in no way offended by the ad personally. I just don’t think it’s the type of ad you want on your website except to draw click and will give negative reactions rather than positive ones.
how many of those clicks actually were worthwhile and led to a sale or someone going further into the site? Anyone on vital click on the ad and buy a seat?
on the other hand transition is selling shitloads of transitions to women in the pnw. Which is easily the most diverse mtb location in the USA. Maybe “ woke”culture sells more shit than bikini pics at the end of the day?
Sigh.
100 to 1? According to what dataset? VitalMTB is a website, not a reflection of reality. The actual demographic mix is something between 70-30 and 80-20. Back when I produced an all women ski film I dove into the demographics data across a number of mountain sports in painstaking detail. Most mountain sports mirror this 80-20 to 70-30 mix and hasn't changed too much over the last 10 years (though it has moved toward more women participating, which is awesome). Why has it changed? Its really hard to point at a single variable but I'd argue technology being more friendly to all as well as cultural changes (women lead events, it being perceived as "cool" to do mountain sports etc) are the main drivers.
What "behavior of men" is the problem? Can you define it? Can you offer solutions? I mean this really sincerely, but if there are dudes actively trying to get women to not participate, that is in fact a real problem. I've personally never seen this.
As to the quality of the ad, I agree with you. I would have gone a different direction with respect to creative choice, but I have zero idea what their aim was. To add, I see bad ads all the time, some with budgets 100x greater than SQ Labs (think - bad super bowl ad). I don't write letters or make conversation in forums about it. Like most things in life, there are times when the target is not hit. This doesn't warrant some kind of tiki torch "cancel them" parade. I see it. I don't like it. I move on.
Finally I absolutely believe brands should market to women. Its a great (arguably growing) demographic often with a lot of disposable income. Life is better when all your friends ride bikes. Transition is an awesome brand doing all sorts of right things for people of all types. The question was not "should you market to women" or "should your brand be inclusive of women", the answer to both these questions is painstakingly obvious.
The thesis here was that a goofy advertisement for an obscure Euroland company is somehow representative of a trend of advertising pushing women out of the sport or keeping them from participating. None of this has been shown to me to be true for all the reasons I've already articulated.
Not even close to 70-30 where I live and even less if you removed women who ride dad’s/hubby’s extra bike maybe once a month. Been at plenty of events here with 50-300 males and 0-10 women. Usually there is less than 5. And very often zero. I see females riding bikes at my local trail rarely. I believe you are in Colorado which I’d imagine is somewhere in close to the 1 in 4 range. Here it is not 1 in 10. Probably not even 1 in 20.
when i lived in Oregon it was closer to 1 in 4. If you saw a group of 8 riders often one or two was a women. You’d see women groups of lots of sizes and routinely see women riding alone. Here the vast majority of interactions I have with women on trails is a single women riding with the bf or husband or dad who is an extremely avid biker. Without that person their participation in the sport is completely non existent. The main reason in my view was differences in culture between the scenes. Things are much more misogynistic here as well as far more clique oriented. It’s gotten better the last 4 or 5 years (and this past year I’ve seen a little bump in participation which I think is the result of that) but I’d say it was downright unfriendly for quite a while. And it was more enjoyable for me in Oregon. And yeah I’m not blaming bad taste bikini bike seat ads for what it’s like here. But I also think bad or questionable behavior and people just accepting it is a big reason my mtb scene is so behind as well as the online mtb community is so behind. Not that the pnw is some perfect utopia. It can progress as well but it’s certainly in general ahead as opposed to below the curve.
If I could solve gender issues I’d do more with my time than comment too much on a bike forum. But I certainly notice plenty of questionable behavior whether it be small like this ad or bigger. But it all adds up to a sausage fest which is a whole lot less fun for me than environments with plenty of female participants.
Gauging participation based on what you see through your lived experience is an impossible data point to debate. There are many reason you may feel participation is lower in the female cohort than more rigorous studies have suggested, right on down to the fact that there is selection bias built in & we as humans are terrible at actually recalling anything close to something of statistical importance.
Your rambling aside, the big underlying theme here is there are people in this thread that see men and women as being one in the same and those who acknowledge gender differences. Again, don't misread, I strongly believe in equality of opportunity but to ignore the very important differences between men & women will lead to all sorts of circular debates to which there are no end.
Not tracking? Lets go into some (now) decades old peer reviewed psychology & sociology that was performed with real scientific rigor. Prior to this modern equality of outcome movement, we used to acknowledge people are different for a myriad of reasons, including gender. There are statistically significant differences between the genders that I'd wager accounts for the fact mountain biking will never be split 50/50 male to female. I'm willing to back this claim up by suggesting aggressiveness is a personality trait that is selected for in mountain biking, and this has been scientifically shown (over and over) to be more common in males than females. Please understand - this does not mean females can't be aggressive, it just means across a population of men and women, a man is more likely than a female to exhibit this trait which means they are also more likely to participate in sports that control for it. I also believe there are firm biological reasons for this statistical delta between the sexes.
Don't believe me (or the academic journals)? All you have to do is look at incarceration statistics. Men are 10x more likely to go to jail for a violent crime than females. Violent crime is another way to select for aggressiveness. Why aren't the incarceration statistics equal? Until you see this number at 50/50 (violent crime across the sexes) you'll never see mountain biking, dirt biking, boxing, jujitsu, or any other sport that requires aggressiveness to be equally participated in between the genders. I know, I can feel all those with a degree from a liberal arts school circa 2010+ recoiling in fear.
Final point, this one from two girls. While talking about this topic last night, they both commented in their own way that a huge turn off to getting into mtb was the way the girls (not dudes) dressed and acted. They felt it lacked femininity, was aiming to be more grungy than they want to appear and they didn't find the women be the kind of aesthetic they wanted to aspire toward. A bit shallow, sure, but really interesting to me. Rene Girard's philosphy of memisis is all around us, so this seem to hold water to me. Take it or leave it - but one thing seems obvious, this is a complicated issue with lots of variables & lots of drivers going way past a simple (meaningless) ad on a esoteric mountain biking website. If your actual goal is to increase participation of females in mountain biking, it requires an entirely different approach - and to ask the simple question, are we sure more women want to participate? If so, what are the real drivers to helping more women get into the sport? Asking the right questions will probably bring forth the right approach to the problem (which I think a number of organizations - most commonly bike shops - are addressing)
EDIT: For clarity; also to comment I am a huge advocate of women who want to race, ride bikes, or check out the sport. To that point, I have three bikes in my garage right now (all female owned) who I'll be tending to today for free to keep them out on the trail. I spent a number of hours this weekend coaching a few girls who rip on the motorized side of things. I only mention this to be extra mega clear - I'm a HUGE advocate of more women participating in the sport of mountain biking, dirt biking, skiing, snowmobiling, or really any sport. I think its super rad. I also think its important we're eyes wide open with respect to the differences between the sexes before we run off on some silly boondoggle with poor aim.
Jeff, I'm not sure if I have been unclear, or if you're being purposefully obtuse to prove your "anti-woke" bona fides.
I've given historical context regarding advertising in the mountain bike industry, have not once targeted SQ Labs as anything other than a possibly thoughtless advertiser, and yet again started this thread to discuss the much larger subject about how this sport might be seen.
Again, I'll give my personal experience as someone who worked in and around the bike industry since the early 90s. I worked in shops, even managed service departments, where it was not unusual to have Marzocchi posters and calendars, and the infamous Paola Pezzo "unzipped" poster.
In around '01, I was working at Turin in Denver, we had a young woman working on the sales floor named Sarah. She would give us crap about those, especially the Pezzo one. After the shop closed, she told us when she saw those during her interview, she almost didn't take the job because she didn't want to be ogled or hit on. She was a cyclist but worried about her place in a bike shop. That was the first, but certainly not the last, time that this was expressed in one form or another.
I've had many conversations with Amanda Batty, a former World Cup DH racer, about this. She also felt that the industry, through advertising and general attitudes, was not welcoming to women. I've chatted with many women about this over the years, and when they're not feeling peer pressure around "the guys" most have said similar things.
I've also never once suggested that participation need to be 1:1, and to your point equality of outcome is not my goal. However, I would say that these long-standing attitudes historically have impacted opportunity, and by extension representation.
"I'm willing to back this claim up by suggesting aggressiveness is a personality trait that is selected for in mountain biking, and this has been scientifically shown (over and over) to be more common in males than females. Please understand - this does not mean females can't be aggressive, it just means across a population of men and women, a man is more likely than a female to exhibit this trait which means they are also more likely to participate in sports that control for it. I also believe there are firm biological reasons for this statistical delta between the sexes.
Don't believe me (or the academic journals)? All you have to do is look at incarceration statistics. Men are 10x more likely to go to jail for a violent crime than females. Violent crime is another way to select for aggressiveness. Why aren't the incarceration statistics equal? Until you see this number at 50/50 (violent crime across the sexes) you'll never see mountain biking, dirt biking, boxing, jujitsu, or any other sport that requires aggressiveness to be equally participated in between the genders." I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree that mountain biking is analogous to combat sports (I won't comment on moto or jujitsu, as I've never done either but I boxed Golden Gloves until I was 18 and hold a shodan in Kendo.) Maybe this in an unconscious bias, but mountain biking is much more than DH or Enduro racing, or even aggro riding. Therefore this idea that women tend to exhibit less aggression is meaningless- unless you're also talking about how much that is pushed through advertising...
Vital MTB's most recent published user survey (2022) showed that only 4% of respondents are female. That seems like a pretty statistically significant disparity.
"Rene Girard's philosphy of memisis (sic) is all around us, so this seem (sic) to hold water to me." Mimesis (in case there are folks on this thread who didn't get a liberal arts degree after 2010) is the idea that one's desires are largely influenced by the desires of others. This is a pretty interesting point, and maybe why women's-only rides, the increase of women coaches, and programs like NICA's GRiT have seen increased in women's participation.
"If your actual goal is to increase participation of females in mountain biking, it requires an entirely different approach - and to ask the simple question, are we sure more women want to participate? If so, what are the real drivers to helping more women get into the sport? Asking the right questions will probably bring forth the right approach to the problem (which I think a number of organizations - most commonly bike shops - are addressing)" These are excellent points. And part of the issue, in my experience, is the way the sport is viewed by women starting out. I've heard from boys participating in NICA that before they joined, they didn't this girls rode bikes. And I've heard from girls in the program that they felt that this was the first time they felt like they belonged on group rides.
This is, as you've said, a deeply complex issue. My goal was to start a conversation about aspects that most of us are privileged enough not to think about. And you've joined that conversation. Sucker.
Jeff you are quoting statistics on violent prisoners when discussing an admittedly poor ad in reference to women in mtb. Talk about a silly boondoggle with poor aim.
I provide anecdotal evidence because it directly relates to what I experience at the trails. And therefore women experience at the trails I use.
you provided anecdotal evidence about a lack of feminine fashion in your local mtb area turning women away. Well there is just not enough avid mountain biking women for that clique to exist where you live. There certainly isn’t a lack of femenism among many top mtb athletes. Plenty have done model shoots for calendars or instagram or whatever. The issue is a Paola pezzo poster prob doesn’t belong in a business with a bunch of dudes behind the counter or the unwanted responses these women receive online and in public by men who can’t behave themselves. The issue is the clear difficulty in sustainable success for women who are pure athletes achieve in such a male dominated sport. Hell part of the reason so many mtb women in the us dress less feminine is so they get bothered less. But the thing about women is they don’t agree on shit so they split up with people they want to be around. There just has to be those people they want to be around out there for them to meet. And the huge disproportion of males to females and a fairly hostile online community makes that pretty tough.
i appreciate you discussing nuances of your opinions rather than pulling the easy social justice warrior or snowflake comment. Personally yeah I wish spoomer had won that arguement. I don’t think that ad is a good look for the sport. But I’m far less committed to getting this ad removed then you seem to be to defend it’s existence. I get you simply find the ad insignificant. But I hope you understand it would be easy for a women to read this thread and the the thumbs up and downs and think “oh wow there are some people who seem to be really hostile towards making the sport more inclusive to women”. I think you see that based on your edit and your points. But some the other side of your responses seem a little extreme.
Just to be clear, I don't think the over arching idea of having a conversation is a bad thing or "waste of time" (the opposite actually). What I feel is a waste of time is this form of conversation. Its too easy for nuance to get missed, and points to get lost. I guarantee if we were at a bar/coffee shop having a few hour conversation it'd be 1000x more fruitful.
You did get one thing right, I am a sucker for this regardless of what my prefrontal cortex may tell the less evolved part of my brain.
Hey, I appreciate that. You're right that this is far from the best way to have this discussion. If I had the means, I'd love to sit down with everyone and have a face to face talk over a beer (or whatever.) I know that, regardless of what anyone has said on this thread, we all probably have way more in common than not. Unfortunately, this is the best way to have that broader conversation, so... *shrug*
If you make your way down to the Albuquerque/Santa Fe area, I'll buy that first round.
And I was right about way more than one thing, but I can see why you wouldn't want to admit that!
I read about half the comments. Seems like a good amount of you live in the woke bubble. I highly suggest you never watch South Park, your outrage might cause a heart attack. What’s even more ironic is that ad was the banner on top of this thread. It so barely sexual I can’t even understand why some of you are upset? Do you make your wives or girlfriends dress like pilgrims to avoid showing any skin and causing arousal? Half the butts are dudes. Go ride your bikes more.
Jake I’m a little confused. Saying half the butts are dudes sort of implies it’s not a big deal seeing guys in panty like attire. Is that what anti-woke dudes are cool with? What is woke? Is it just a political buzz word for tools maybe? Definitely agree I will go ride by bike
The claim that it’s objectifying women is out the window when half the images are also dudes. That’s the point of mentioning that. The fact that it needs to be said explains why this thread even exists.
So complaining in a thread that people are complaining about something is anti- woke. I agree this whole thread is asinine accent on the ass
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