MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
Posts
4598
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/4/2022 11:25am
Uuuuum... Insider info on the shock strokes? Tongue

It's quite possible the truth is in between the values, yeah. Bring the two travels together by a milimeter on each side and you're quite near a 2,5 leverage ratio for example. Bring them together by 2 mm on each side (4 mm total) and you're almost at a leverage ratio of 2.

155 and 170 sounds much better than 157 and 168.
4
juliusk
Posts
116
Joined
1/21/2021
Location
Clausthal-Zellerfeld DE
10/4/2022 11:37am
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be good as they break all the time (compared to my saints which take every slam since two years)

pinkrobe
Posts
269
Joined
5/16/2015
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
10/4/2022 12:35pm
I was excited* to see that Cervelo released a hardtail, but then saw this:
"Cables and hoses run into the frame through the headset cover."
I was hoping the through-headset routing thing would not be a thing. But it looks like it's going to be a thing. I do not like this thing.

*pinner XC hardtails make awesome gravel bikes
3
sethimus
Posts
895
Joined
9/20/2014
Location
CH
10/4/2022 12:35pm
Primoz wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CjOv2jWOAAg/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D [img]https://i.imgur.com/R43gRiB.jpeg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/WJWyguA.png[/img] Got this linked to me. Looks like running a mismatched setup will be a PITA, even more so than Shimano brakes and Sram...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CjOv2jWOAAg/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D




Got this linked to me.

Looks like running a mismatched setup will be a PITA, even more so than Shimano brakes and Sram drivetrain. And bleeding might be a PITA too as it looks like it will be hard to clean up the fluid from between the reservoir and the handlebar. You're going to get spillage in there for sure...

And like a comment on IG says, looks like they are optimised for internal routing Smile
no dot…
1
10/4/2022 12:50pm
Primoz wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CjOv2jWOAAg/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D [img]https://i.imgur.com/R43gRiB.jpeg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/WJWyguA.png[/img] Got this linked to me. Looks like running a mismatched setup will be a PITA, even more so than Shimano brakes and Sram...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CjOv2jWOAAg/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D




Got this linked to me.

Looks like running a mismatched setup will be a PITA, even more so than Shimano brakes and Sram drivetrain. And bleeding might be a PITA too as it looks like it will be hard to clean up the fluid from between the reservoir and the handlebar. You're going to get spillage in there for sure...

And like a comment on IG says, looks like they are optimised for internal routing Smile
sethimus wrote:
no dot…
Thats the new one (duh) that was previewed by that bike patent website guy. One guess, is that the awesome looking tucked in hose can be run through a hole in the handlebar to hide 200mm of unsightly hose
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Primoz
Posts
4598
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/4/2022 1:29pm
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff.

Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then. Which would be a shame, the RSCs have been mint for the 4 season i've had them now, 2 or 3 bleeds in total in the whole time, otherwise just changing pads.

Considering the lever looks exactly like the old one, just reprofiled (turned towards the bar a bit more) and considering they were testing a new caliper on the old levers... I'm hoping DOT stays. Replacing the seals for proto stuff is probably easy though, as long as they are available in the required size.
10/4/2022 1:34pm
juliusk wrote:
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be...
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be good as they break all the time (compared to my saints which take every slam since two years)

maybe the "adjustable free stroke" actually does something this time
6
1
Losifer
Posts
407
Joined
9/12/2017
Location
Sandia Park, NM US
Fantasy
10/4/2022 1:44pm
juliusk wrote:
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be...
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be good as they break all the time (compared to my saints which take every slam since two years)

maybe the "adjustable free stroke" actually does something this time
After 20 years, why would they change?
7
10/4/2022 1:56pm
juliusk wrote:
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be...
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be good as they break all the time (compared to my saints which take every slam since two years)

maybe the "adjustable free stroke" actually does something this time
Shimano needs to go back to the drawing board on levers. My buddy bent his lever on sunday and a few years ago I broke a lever and while digging through the parts pile and found the older 2pot SLX levers were noticeably thicker than the current crop of levers.

3
2
10/4/2022 6:28pm
Sorry for the additional thread derailment, but I gambled and bought a pair of Commencal TEMPO skis last season and put a ton of touring and alpine miles on them in the northeast. They are excellent and indeed ironically very light. They’ll get even more use again this season. Only one season thus far, but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy another Commencal show product.
2
mfoga
Posts
756
Joined
9/21/2015
Location
Moreno Valley, CA US
Fantasy
10/4/2022 7:49pm
So yeah probably not having anything to do with carbon development
"We wanted to offer a ski in the same sense as our bikes, efficient and reliable. The choice of a full wood core was obvious, no reason to integrate carbon in a core when our bikes don't need it. Another essential element in the make up of a good pair of skis, the base. Not having a strong base and a good finish is a bit like driving a Porsche with the plastic tyres, it ruins everything."
Primoz
Posts
4598
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/4/2022 9:41pm
juliusk wrote:
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be...
Does anybody know anything about this? It says redesigned lever, I‘m not sure if I can spot some visual changes but a reinforced lever would be good as they break all the time (compared to my saints which take every slam since two years)

maybe the "adjustable free stroke" actually does something this time
Poleczechy wrote:
Shimano needs to go back to the drawing board on levers. My buddy bent his lever on sunday and a few years ago I broke a...
Shimano needs to go back to the drawing board on levers. My buddy bent his lever on sunday and a few years ago I broke a lever and while digging through the parts pile and found the older 2pot SLX levers were noticeably thicker than the current crop of levers.

€€€.
10/5/2022 2:04am
Primoz wrote:
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff. Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then...
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff.

Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then. Which would be a shame, the RSCs have been mint for the 4 season i've had them now, 2 or 3 bleeds in total in the whole time, otherwise just changing pads.

Considering the lever looks exactly like the old one, just reprofiled (turned towards the bar a bit more) and considering they were testing a new caliper on the old levers... I'm hoping DOT stays. Replacing the seals for proto stuff is probably easy though, as long as they are available in the required size.
Can I ask why you prefer DOT? It seems the whole MTB world has been asking for all brakes to use Mineral Oil. It's not corrosive and seems to last for ages before needing bleeding, and doesn't come out black like DOT fluid.

The only benefit of DOT fluid I can see is the boiling temperature is much higher, but is that really an issue on MTB? can't say I've ever had an issue with mineral oil boiling.
7
5
Jakub_G
Posts
355
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
10/5/2022 3:17am
Primoz wrote:
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff. Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then...
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff.

Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then. Which would be a shame, the RSCs have been mint for the 4 season i've had them now, 2 or 3 bleeds in total in the whole time, otherwise just changing pads.

Considering the lever looks exactly like the old one, just reprofiled (turned towards the bar a bit more) and considering they were testing a new caliper on the old levers... I'm hoping DOT stays. Replacing the seals for proto stuff is probably easy though, as long as they are available in the required size.
Can I ask why you prefer DOT? It seems the whole MTB world has been asking for all brakes to use Mineral Oil. It's not corrosive...
Can I ask why you prefer DOT? It seems the whole MTB world has been asking for all brakes to use Mineral Oil. It's not corrosive and seems to last for ages before needing bleeding, and doesn't come out black like DOT fluid.

The only benefit of DOT fluid I can see is the boiling temperature is much higher, but is that really an issue on MTB? can't say I've ever had an issue with mineral oil boiling.
First of all, ask Shimano brake owners about black mineral oil, they could give you some pointers lol. Second of all, dot fluid doesn't have higher boiling point than high quality mineral oils or alternatives like danico biotech. Motorsport fluids are close fresh out of bottle, but nowhere near once they absorb a bit of water. Not to mention motorsport fluids are always too viscous for MTB brakes in the first place. Dot has one theoretical advantage and that comes with hygroscopic nature of it, any water that gets in the system will be evenly spread across the whole volume of fluid, mineral oil not so much, it will pool in the lowest point which is not ideal, since caliper is also the hottest part of the brake. Does the pooling of water happen in the real world? No I would say, unless you ride the brakes for 20years without oil change and store the bike in the rain forest. Or lake.
12
1
10/5/2022 3:53am
And because you can buy dot in every gas station arround. Cleaning spilled dot from brakes is also easier with water, not so mineral oil for which you need brake cleaner, which is also not skin and environmental friendly.
2
5
nollak
Posts
77
Joined
11/27/2020
Location
DE
10/5/2022 4:07am
And because you can buy dot in every gas station arround. Cleaning spilled dot from brakes is also easier with water, not so mineral oil for...
And because you can buy dot in every gas station arround. Cleaning spilled dot from brakes is also easier with water, not so mineral oil for which you need brake cleaner, which is also not skin and environmental friendly.
But the spilled dot which you washed away with water is environment friendly??
6
3
jeff.brines
Posts
1262
Joined
8/29/2010
Location
Grand Junction, CO US
10/5/2022 4:43am
Nerds! Wink

I'll buy a brake for a myriad of reasons, but what fluid is in them is not going to be the determining factor (at all).

I do hope someone does an updated test like this with all the new stoppers... https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/




7
2
10/5/2022 5:58am
Seems like they are producing more and more "meta xc" frames... Maybe it's ready for selling and no longer on prototype phase... Here is amaury with a painted one...
Karabuka
Posts
438
Joined
12/1/2011
Location
SI
10/5/2022 6:34am
Primoz wrote:
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff. Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then...
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff.

Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then. Which would be a shame, the RSCs have been mint for the 4 season i've had them now, 2 or 3 bleeds in total in the whole time, otherwise just changing pads.

Considering the lever looks exactly like the old one, just reprofiled (turned towards the bar a bit more) and considering they were testing a new caliper on the old levers... I'm hoping DOT stays. Replacing the seals for proto stuff is probably easy though, as long as they are available in the required size.
There used to be a video made by SRAM explaining in length why DOT is better for bikes, but I cannot find it anymore. Even when they released the mineral oil brakes they've said this is only for entry level bikes as dot is still better performing. If they seriously go with mineral oil for codes that would be the end of the world. Funny enough, they would never release top mineral oil brakes with that video oniline, now that is seems gone though...
1
Pedal4life
Posts
298
Joined
6/19/2014
Location
San Diego, CA US
10/5/2022 7:02am
What about using dot5 silicone fluid? Maybe the best but I’ll stick with mineral oil
1
10/5/2022 8:26am
The Bionol vegetable oil has very low viscosity. And higher boiling point than DOT 5.1
Primoz
Posts
4598
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/5/2022 8:44am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2022 8:50am
Hello from Mr. Offtopic.

DOT 5 is dead in the water, apparently ABS systems could cause aeration and thus made it unusable in cars (as per wiki). That's why DOT 5.1 was made as it has the temperature ratings of DOT5 while still being ethylene-glycol based.

The video is still up, brake fluid part starts at 3:25:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF2vAOmplUI

As for why DOT, as has been mentioned, DOT 5.1 is DOT 5.1. The DOT in the name stands for Department Of Transportation, meaning it's tightly regulated. That's why DOT fluids from different manufacturers can be mixed and matched. So you can buy it, like mentioned, in any petrol station, spare parts store, etc.

Mineral oil is a WIIIIIIIDE term. Baby oil is a mineral oil, so is engine oil, suspension fluid, etc. It's even recommended to be used as a fertility preserving vaginal lubricant (as opposed to other lubricants?). Most importantly, going by the letter of brake manufacturers, you can't mix and match mineral oil suppliers. And there have been murmurs of Shimano oil swelling Magura brake seals or vice versa, if I remember correctly, indicating incompatibility.

Regarding toxicity, mineral oil can actually be carcinogenic as per wiki (depends on which mineral oil of course, considering the lubricant point above, but I'll fearmonger a bit if it helps my point Tongue ), while ethylene glycol is biodegradable and water soluble. Yeah, DOT strips paint, but because it's a paint solvent. It doesn't make it the harbinger of death, it just likes to nom nom on the compounds paint is made from. Doesn't mean it will do the same to your skin or eyelids or something. And mineral oil, not being soluble in the water, contaminates water, which I guess we all know (EPA states a quart (one litre) of oil down a storm drain contaminates 1 million gallons (over 4 million litres) of water).

Regarding water solvency in the system... I usually have to open the reservoir to be able to spread the pistons in the caliper when changing pads. That can only be caused by a change in the volume of the oil, which can only be caused by water ingestion past the seals if you ask me. So in that regard my opinion is that water ingress is a real thing. With Shimano brakes for example the bleed port can be on the same end of the caliper as the banjo hose fitting (BR-M8020). With the front brake that puts both at the top of the caliper. How are you supposed to flush the bottom of the caliper in that case? I prefer the way water is absorbed into DOT fluid in this case.

As for black oil, bleed a Code R and a Code RSC. Or a Guide R(S) and an RSC. With RSC brakes the lever is anodized, including the bore. With the R and RS models it's painted. That means the bore is bare aluminium. With the R and RS models, the brake fluid that is pulled from the system is usually gray. With RSC brakes it's not. Can confirm this, I've done a bleed after well over a year not touching my RSCs and it was just visible when the old fluid flushed into the syringe mixing with the new one. I bet the colour of the oil is caused by wear particles of the master cylinder bore, the master piston (usually plastic) and the seals. And having an anodized (smoother, harder) master cylinder surface lessens that. Besides, brake fluid degrading would happen in the caliper, not in the lever. So the first pull of oil from the lever would be clean, the dirty part would be the caliper (which I think is usually cleaner than the lever as well).

My 2 cents.
9
1
sethimus
Posts
895
Joined
9/20/2014
Location
CH
10/5/2022 9:29am
Primoz wrote:
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff. Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then...
Prefer unsightly hoses to pain when servicing stuff.

Also, if they will be using mineral oil, I guess I'll be shopping elsewhere for my stoppers then. Which would be a shame, the RSCs have been mint for the 4 season i've had them now, 2 or 3 bleeds in total in the whole time, otherwise just changing pads.

Considering the lever looks exactly like the old one, just reprofiled (turned towards the bar a bit more) and considering they were testing a new caliper on the old levers... I'm hoping DOT stays. Replacing the seals for proto stuff is probably easy though, as long as they are available in the required size.
Karabuka wrote:
There used to be a video made by SRAM explaining in length why DOT is better for bikes, but I cannot find it anymore. Even when...
There used to be a video made by SRAM explaining in length why DOT is better for bikes, but I cannot find it anymore. Even when they released the mineral oil brakes they've said this is only for entry level bikes as dot is still better performing. If they seriously go with mineral oil for codes that would be the end of the world. Funny enough, they would never release top mineral oil brakes with that video oniline, now that is seems gone though...
sure they said that, doesn’t change their switchover plan vor 2024
1
TimBud
Posts
542
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
10/5/2022 11:11am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2022 11:20am
The Department of Transport is a British based organisation so it having any jurisdiction to monitor compliance outside of the UK (and its "colonies") is laughable. Least of all the US where Biden is doing everything he can to restrict trade because his idea on Ireland is different. Politics aside, not all DOT 5.1 fluids are the same either. Even with the "regulations" they have to adhere to.
At least with Mineral Oil each manufacturer (well the good ones at least) make their own and control it strictly... but that gets people pissed because they like to have options and will defy what is recommended to save a few pennies or just to be defiant.

The dry boring point of DOT fluid is completely irrelevant too, as it will only be in its dry state until you open the lid of the container. And even then all brake fluids/systems take in water through absorption or other, so the dry boiling temp is an almost entirely irrelevant stat.

7
AndehM
Posts
675
Joined
5/7/2018
Location
El Granada, CA US
Fantasy
10/5/2022 11:17am
Oh god, headset (or stem) routing again.
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2
kcy4130
Posts
319
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
MT US
10/5/2022 11:23am
It is indeed aluminum. Will be interesting to see how light they were able to make it.
10/5/2022 11:37am
Yeah found it while being on ig a wee bit earlier today! I tried to edit the post with pictures but ended up deleting the post by accident instead, oh well!
It's a mighty fine looking bike!
1
10/5/2022 11:40am
Might need a TEMPO bike to match my TEMPO skis! That's a good looking bike.
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Phelp
Posts
5
Joined
3/14/2022
Location
DE
10/5/2022 1:34pm
Since cable routing through the headset is a byproduct of e bikes it wont go away.
No chance. Best thing we can hope is that they figure out how to do it nicely and practical.
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