MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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10/6/2022 4:18am Edited Date/Time 10/6/2022 4:25am
that's at least two kilos overweight compared to xc race bikes, a bit too much to be overcome by skill, spirit, guts, determination or whatever one wants to call it, I think.


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Pedal4life
Posts
262
Joined
6/19/2014
Location
San Diego, CA US
10/6/2022 5:09am

Weights are meaningless at this point the only frame piece that looks production finished is the rear triangle but the main frame definitely is still not completed look at that headtube thing looks like something from a DH bike
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2
Masjo
Posts
151
Joined
11/25/2014
Location
Ancaster CA
10/6/2022 5:47am
metadave wrote:
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up...
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up through the brake hoses while trying to also keep the hoses from twisting around the steerer or each other while also not having enough room to see down through it all. Most companies have not left enough room for the hoses to flex properly around the steerer or through the top cap so you often end up with resistance when turning as it's rubbing somewhere.... For no perceivable advantage until you hit 45km/h on smooth surfaces.
This is pretty ridiculous, I have heard that some companies only leave +/- 10mm of hose to work with, short enough that you basically can't add or remove more than one headset spacer without cutting/getting longer brake hoses. How is that working with dropper seatposts, especially 200+ ones? It's going to be such a pain to fish out the cables/housing for service if there isn't fully guided internal routing. All for

Also in line with that, it seems like this whole 'aero' (and also 'integrated') point is moot on MTB when the front brake hose is still dangling about off the front. I'll excuse the lines all running beside/under the bar (I'm sure that's not aero either but could be made so with a shroud/cover) but you still have a long cable exposed in the wind. Saying that, from what I understand you could offset the drag of an exposed cable just by making sure your helmet's straps are tight and stitching the excess chin strap in to place so it's not flapping about.
While I don't want a fully integrated/internal/hidden cable bike, I will admit that the road versions (where every cable can be hidden) look very clean.
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10/6/2022 6:41am
The new BMC Fourstroke caught my eye almost instantly after reading the PB article on it. No Im not gonna buy one, but it looks awfully similar to the bike Cecile Ravanel was riding while coaching PFP this year.
It got me thinking, what if BMC hired Commencal to help with the development of the bike, or the other way around.
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1
monarchmason
Posts
4
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA US
10/6/2022 6:43am
metadave wrote:
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up...
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up through the brake hoses while trying to also keep the hoses from twisting around the steerer or each other while also not having enough room to see down through it all. Most companies have not left enough room for the hoses to flex properly around the steerer or through the top cap so you often end up with resistance when turning as it's rubbing somewhere.... For no perceivable advantage until you hit 45km/h on smooth surfaces.
You know there have been some dumb standards put out in the last decade. Some in hindsight, not so bad, some, not exactly needed but they exist and we bitch about them. Headset routing however has me kind of excited and pissed off. The one time the industry yet again tried to force dumb crap down our throats and its back firing. It seemed to take the industry by storm for no reason, at the same time, so did everyones decision to say “nope”. I hope companies learn their lesson. There are about to be a lot of un purchased bikes all because of some stupid aesthetic choice.
3
matmattmatthew
Posts
153
Joined
6/14/2014
Location
Fresh Prince of Bel Air, MD US
10/6/2022 6:47am
As far as elite XC racing, the weight of the Commencal frame will certainly be a point of contention. I have no idea if it will actually be a WC level XC race bike or a Downcountry bike. My Spur frame is almost 800 grams heavier than the Epic Evo, the delta between the Epic Evo and the Commencal is probably in the 1600-2000g range. Regardless of the weight, it appears to be a rad bike and I’m glad to see it.
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1
sspomer
Posts
3044
Joined
6/26/2009
Location
Boise, ID US
10/6/2022 8:09am Edited Date/Time 10/6/2022 8:18am
let's figure amaury is on a production bike that may be a bit portly for legit WC win contention. if any top level racer is on one, isn't it a reasonable assumption that they'd be getting a fully custom, superlight, drilled-out, quintuple-butted, less-gusseted, would-probably-break-under-someone-over-150 pounds, for-race-only version? can't imagine you'd try to grab a winning XC rider only to handicap them with a bike that's significantly heavier than the competition.

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10/6/2022 8:19am
metadave wrote:
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up...
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up through the brake hoses while trying to also keep the hoses from twisting around the steerer or each other while also not having enough room to see down through it all. Most companies have not left enough room for the hoses to flex properly around the steerer or through the top cap so you often end up with resistance when turning as it's rubbing somewhere.... For no perceivable advantage until you hit 45km/h on smooth surfaces.
You know there have been some dumb standards put out in the last decade. Some in hindsight, not so bad, some, not exactly needed but they...
You know there have been some dumb standards put out in the last decade. Some in hindsight, not so bad, some, not exactly needed but they exist and we bitch about them. Headset routing however has me kind of excited and pissed off. The one time the industry yet again tried to force dumb crap down our throats and its back firing. It seemed to take the industry by storm for no reason, at the same time, so did everyones decision to say “nope”. I hope companies learn their lesson. There are about to be a lot of un purchased bikes all because of some stupid aesthetic choice.
I don’t know. I feel if I like the bike enough, I’ll probably just rip all the cables out and route them externally. Dropper post non-withstanding.
3
kcy4130
Posts
103
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
MT US
10/6/2022 9:04am
With the battery recalls they had, good thing they didn't call it a "fire sale"
Tanner_Carl
Posts
75
Joined
11/2/2018
Location
Bumfuck, WI US
10/6/2022 10:29am
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
1
marylanduro
Posts
3
Joined
10/6/2022
Location
Baltimore, MD US
10/6/2022 10:35am
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's...
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
I hope so. I'm in the market for a big S bike/frame in the next 6 months but don't wanna buy if something better is coming.

On note of suspicious Spesh stuff; Enduro frames are the same for S-Works and 'normal' carbon price wise and have been for a bit...
nskerb
Posts
132
Joined
3/3/2020
Location
Kelso, WA US
10/6/2022 11:04am
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's...
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
Beyond durability upgrades (thicker layup near the BB/DT junction) I see no reason for the SJEvo to change in the next 5 years unless some drastic geometry discovery is made that impacts the entire bicycle world lol.
1
Eoin
Posts
175
Joined
3/6/2015
Location
FR
10/6/2022 11:40am
Damn those prices are nice, would definitely pick up a Levo if I lived in the US, no price drop for EU.

The bike that needs the biggest update is the kenevo. Every other bike in their range is class leading, then the kenevo is sitting in the corner on this weird cheapo build that costs a fortune despite tiny batteries.
Primoz
Posts
2265
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/6/2022 12:09pm
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's...
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
nskerb wrote:
Beyond durability upgrades (thicker layup near the BB/DT junction) I see no reason for the SJEvo to change in the next 5 years unless some drastic...
Beyond durability upgrades (thicker layup near the BB/DT junction) I see no reason for the SJEvo to change in the next 5 years unless some drastic geometry discovery is made that impacts the entire bicycle world lol.
You don't see a reason, but the marketing team, shops and so on definitely see a reason. It has to be new to sell!!!
3
Eoin
Posts
175
Joined
3/6/2015
Location
FR
10/6/2022 12:36pm
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
4
brash
Posts
366
Joined
4/24/2019
Location
AU
10/6/2022 2:07pm
50-60Nm is the sweet spot I think. That is basically equivalent to trail mode on an EP8/E8000 motor. Will be more than adequate for the steepest of hills and have a decent range. Couple that with a 450-500Wh battery any you can do 1200-1400m of vert depending on body weight.

Keep it around 20kg and you will have a good thing.

Ironically, this is what the first gen of eebs were, external battery (read lighter, but ugly as sin) around 22kg, E8000 motors with 500Wh batteries. They were great.

I'm really interested to see what that new Transition relay is like, that ticks all my boxes.
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1
Seagrave7
Posts
2
Joined
8/30/2022
Location
Calabasas, CA US
10/6/2022 10:17pm
Was refreshing the page and saw they dropped this RockShox-only Stumpy Evo. Pretty slick for the price.
Kusa wrote:
There is also new non Evo LTD with Float X. Looks pretty sick.
Non evo rear triangle with float x and a fox 36…………..

https://assets.specialized.com/i/specialized/93322-32_SJ-SW-LTD-OAKGRN-…
1
jofish
Posts
72
Joined
8/24/2009
Location
GB
10/7/2022 4:38am
metadave wrote:
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up...
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up through the brake hoses while trying to also keep the hoses from twisting around the steerer or each other while also not having enough room to see down through it all. Most companies have not left enough room for the hoses to flex properly around the steerer or through the top cap so you often end up with resistance when turning as it's rubbing somewhere.... For no perceivable advantage until you hit 45km/h on smooth surfaces.
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of tooling and layup. It looks like an awkward angle to slide the tool out. If you can hand off all of that additional cost to the headset manufacturers, claim some marginal benefit and get cleaner looking frames in the process then it’s a no brainer.
1
3
Sir HC
Posts
80
Joined
7/5/2014
Location
GB
10/7/2022 5:29am
Eoin wrote:
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of...
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
Underpowered when comparing them to a full fat. But for those which just want a bit of assistance and only a small weight penalty, they are perfect. I hated my full fat eeb, felt clumsy and dead, kenevo sl feels like a normal bike to ride and jump.
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2
10/7/2022 7:44am
Eoin wrote:
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of...
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
That would be Lapierre that invented the lightweight eBike, Spé came out after and so did all the others currently playing on that market. I still don't get this market and who is buying them tho. All my friends that ride eBikes want big motors and batteries to be able to do a lot more than on their bikes. Having one of these also cuts you from any sort of racing as they are too small to do a eBike Enduro race and are not allowed on normal enduro races. Lapierre take on it was actually interesting as it allowed you to be run as a bike and as an eBike so you actually had one bike to do it all.
3
pinkrobe
Posts
66
Joined
5/16/2015
Location
CA
10/7/2022 8:21am
jofish wrote:
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of...
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of tooling and layup. It looks like an awkward angle to slide the tool out. If you can hand off all of that additional cost to the headset manufacturers, claim some marginal benefit and get cleaner looking frames in the process then it’s a no brainer.
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to build the frame without an alloy BB shell bonded in. Other ways to save money include push-to-fit cable ports instead of bolted-in versions (looking at you, Giant).
4
Primoz
Posts
2265
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/7/2022 8:22am
People who want a bike and want to go on group bike rides but have an issue with fitness or speed and need a bit of help.

Like mentioned, the full fat ebikes are cumbersome, the SL variants are actually riding like a bike.
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1
jofish
Posts
72
Joined
8/24/2009
Location
GB
10/7/2022 8:33am
pinkrobe wrote:
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to...
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to build the frame without an alloy BB shell bonded in. Other ways to save money include push-to-fit cable ports instead of bolted-in versions (looking at you, Giant).
Well it certainly seems like cabled headsets are on track to reach the same dizzying heights of success and popularity that pf bb’s did.
5
10/7/2022 8:53am
Primoz wrote:
People who want a bike and want to go on group bike rides but have an issue with fitness or speed and need a bit of...
People who want a bike and want to go on group bike rides but have an issue with fitness or speed and need a bit of help.

Like mentioned, the full fat ebikes are cumbersome, the SL variants are actually riding like a bike.
I got to try several eBike and never really found them cumbersome, if anything they tend to work even better than normal enduro bikes when pointed down chunky stuff and with proper geo those are absolute weapons from what I tried.
3
Primoz
Posts
2265
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
10/7/2022 9:07am
A Turbo Levo SL rides like a bike. An aluminium Bosch equipped e-bike (Focus Jam) was like a freight train. If it was at least a bit steep, you had to be thinking about your braking miles in advance and braking and/or tying to stop dominated the riding experience. Not particularly pleasant. Add to that a much higher weight and tiring you out a lot more throwing it around...

I'll stick to bikes, thanks.
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2
sethimus
Posts
25
Joined
9/20/2014
Location
CH
10/7/2022 9:29am
Eoin wrote:
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of...
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
That would be Lapierre that invented the lightweight eBike, Spé came out after and so did all the others currently playing on that market. I still...
That would be Lapierre that invented the lightweight eBike, Spé came out after and so did all the others currently playing on that market. I still don't get this market and who is buying them tho. All my friends that ride eBikes want big motors and batteries to be able to do a lot more than on their bikes. Having one of these also cuts you from any sort of racing as they are too small to do a eBike Enduro race and are not allowed on normal enduro races. Lapierre take on it was actually interesting as it allowed you to be run as a bike and as an eBike so you actually had one bike to do it all.
i do high alpine stuff with my rise and have a bike that still feels nimble on the way down
metadave
Posts
711
Joined
2/15/2016
Location
CA
10/7/2022 10:24am
I think the issue with fullsize ebikes is less when your coming down and more going up. You can't manipulate the bike as much and pop the rear end around like you can a regular bike, where an SL you can still get it around
1

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