MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

Primoz wrote:

@Onawalk it was mentioned in this topic the embargo lifts in May with the Boxxer embargo lifting in March 2023. The Zeb/Lyrik/Pike combo will very likely...

@Onawalk it was mentioned in this topic the embargo lifts in May with the Boxxer embargo lifting in March 2023. The Zeb/Lyrik/Pike combo will very likely be a MY23 product line (as with the Ultimate series of the Super Deluxe and Pike/Lyrik in spring 2019, which were MY20), so it's unlikely you will see it on this years bikes.

Onawalk wrote:

Gents, Wonder if you’re interested in moving this pissing match to another thread, I couldn’t care less about your thoughts on which you believe is easier...

Gents,
Wonder if you’re interested in moving this pissing match to another thread, I couldn’t care less about your thoughts on which you believe is easier or harder to ride. Keep your feelings somewhere else please.

I am interested in more info on that updated Boxxxer I keep seeing…you know, new tech and such

Also, the updated Zeb, buttercups and all that, when will we see those forks on bikes?
Got a 22 Spire coming, and it would be cool if it was the the newest and greatest gadget

icantride wrote:

I'll copy my post from a few pages back as it seems to have gone under the radar "The Zeb, Lyrik, and Pike will all get...

I'll copy my post from a few pages back as it seems to have gone under the radar

"The Zeb, Lyrik, and Pike will all get refreshed in line with the the same chassis as the ones that came out with flight attendant. IE bleed valves, buttercups, new lowers castings. The new 38 mm Boxxer was marked as embargoed until March 2023, can't believe that though as in the spy shots it looks production ready, plus the first WC is just around the corner"

The new signature lyrik colour is this army green sort of colour and it doesn't look good 😆
The new shocks with HBO and HSC adjustment are also due for launch in May

Also they might be appearing on new bikes as they have apparently been available to order for OEM for a little while now

Roots_rider wrote:

Not sure exactly if, or what, you are disputing that I said. About half of your comment agrees with what I typed, and the other half...

Not sure exactly if, or what, you are disputing that I said. About half of your comment agrees with what I typed, and the other half ignores it.
So, as I stated, Finn’s bike is more progressive, while using a lower leverage rate. As I said, “below 2”. Not 2.1, as 3/2.1 would be less progressive. I’m guessing Loic’s bike is in the low to mid 30% range. 3.3/2.1 is 36.5%, I’m speculating that’s on the upper end, but without having the bikes in front of me with a good way of measuring, I can’t tell 100%. I also can’t tell if they have different chainstay lengths, or if one has a custom shock other than what appears to be a stock 225/75, (although there’s no indication to assume that’s not what they’re both using). What I can tell by obvious visual difference in the design, and drawing out Finn vs Loic’s bikes, is that Finn’s bike is more progressive. Albeit at a lower overall leverage rate. 3/1.8 is 40%, although I’d guess he’s in the mid to upper 30 range. 40 is hitting the more extreme side of things. And yes, Finn probably has less travel, I’m gonna say 6-8mm, putting him in mid 190’s, while Loic is prob around 200 or slightly over. I didn’t feel the travel difference was worth bringing up as most brands already use these numbers more for marketing, and they are a bit arbitrary.
How many bikes claim 160mm travel, but actually make exactly that? High 150s to low 160s can all be claimed this way. While brands such as Raaw use different linkages to drop the overall leverage rate for larger riders, while increasing shock stroke to maintain same travel numbers, but decrease the spring rate necessary to support the heavier riders.

So back to the original topic. Finn’s bike with a 480lb spring (see video), is going to make more force at bottom out than Loic’s bike, if they are running the same spring rate. While Loic’s bike would sag deeper with the same weight rider on each bike, and again same spring.
I’m assuming this is why on your website you guys generally suggest running a firmer spring than stock? With most your links, same spring rate would result in deeper sag, and no additional bottom out force (for links that don’t drop lower than stock at end of travel).
Damping is unnecessary to talk about in the variation of these links, as it’s not something we can measure by looking at the pivot points, and I don’t speak Ohlins race code. Damping is also not going to change the force applied to the wheel based off of travel used in this discussion. We are not discussing the speed at which they reach bottom out or return to top of travel, although I’ll indulge @JCL and go into that briefly. Damping is a measure of velocity/force while spring is travel/force and is why we speak in terms of damping as low speed/high speed. In the realm of momentary impacts on a race track, damping is important in discussing travel used. In discussing the differences of these linkages, force applied to the rear wheel will reach a certain amount of travel regardless of time passed, based solely off spring rates. One will just get there more quickly than the other, which is irrelevant to what we can visually discern.

Now for the off the rails speculations. If Finn’s bike is making more bottom out force, I’d assume his tune includes more high speed rebound. This would appear to be visible by Loic’s scary front wheel ride, the moment I’m assuming @JCL is referring to. He appeared to be bucked forward out of the hole before the rock, as his rear suspension unloaded, indicating a potentially faster end of stroke rebound velocity. Or he was simply just unweighting the rear tire, moving his weight forward at a bit less than ideal time, causing the near OTB moment. Again, all more speculation, but hopefully some clarity as well.

CascadeComponents wrote:

It's a fairly safe assumption that it's a 75mm stroke. Ohlins doesn't make a longer stroke trunnion shock and 75 is sufficiently long that there wouldn't...

It's a fairly safe assumption that it's a 75mm stroke. Ohlins doesn't make a longer stroke trunnion shock and 75 is sufficiently long that there wouldn't be a huge driver to do custom shock bodies just for that. So there's either a significant travel difference or the leverage for Finn's bike is a little higher. 3-1.8 would put it at 180. +/- 5mm is not especially significant. I've run across bikes that are that far off from stated travel and you wouldn't be able to tell just from riding it. 20mm is a much different story. That would lend itself to the idea that maybe 180mm bikes are good on certain courses since the long travel Dreadnoughts seemed to fair well.

Shock stroke and spring rate are the primary factors when comparing bottom out resistance between two linkage systems. Damping can largely be ignored because it can be set to whatever you want, but it's an important part of the bottom out resistance on a whole. I can't tell if you think force at bottom of travel is bottom out resistance or not. Force at bottom of travel only tells you the amount of support that is offered at that point, which is different from bottom out resistance. If you look only at force at bottom of travel it disregards all the work the shock does between it's starting point and there to absorb an impact. Total bottom out resistance varies by impact and is a sum of the potential energy the spring can store and the amount of work the damper does, which is the bit that varies by impact. With all our links, or any link on any bike with the same shock stroke, technically the thing that increases bottom out resistance is an increase in spring rate/pressure and not the link. Leverage ratio has just about nothing to do with bottom out resistance because it's a conservation of energy equation and the linkage system absorbs no energy. The link is about making that increase actually feel good to ride. You could get the exact same bottom out resistance by slapping the same heavier spring on with the stock link, but you'd be pretty over-sprung and it would track like crap. For example, at my weight on the Nomad 4 the recommended spring rate with the stock link is 400lbs. I can bottom out that set up in the parking lot so it doesn't work on the trail at all. Swapped to a 500lb spring which fixed that, but it no longer rode that well. Then made a link that brought the sag back to around 30% and that was fixed. A common misconception that is perpetuated frequently in bike reviews is that more progressive linkages allow you to run a softer spring, whereas it's actually the exact opposite.

If you factor in damping you can make any low spring rate have a high bottom out resistance by throwing a stiffer damping tune at it, but there is no magic stiff damping tune that doesn't adversely impact how the shock responds to high frequency impacts. With high frequency impacts the shock speed is very high for a very small duration of time so a stiff damping tune results in spikes in damping force that can prevent the shock from moving significant amounts. This is why short stroke coil shocks aren't worth the while usually. To make up for the loss in bottom out resistance due to the stroke being shorter they have to make up for it with very stiff damping tunes which often negates some of the primary benefits of a coil shock.

Roots_rider wrote:

I feel like we’ve gone in circles agreeing on things, yet trying to discern what’s been typed? I agree with pretty much everything you said, and...

I feel like we’ve gone in circles agreeing on things, yet trying to discern what’s been typed? I agree with pretty much everything you said, and feel it mirrors much of what I typed in terms of spring rates to bottom out force. Joy of internet communication…

“Shock stroke and spring rate are the primary factors when comparing bottom out resistance between two linkage systems. Damping can largely be ignored because it can be set to whatever you want, but it's an important part of the bottom out resistance on a whole.” - which is why I was trying to make the comparison on the basis of same spring rate, and shock stroke while ignoring damping.

My hope with the original post was to stick purely to the difference in Loic’s vs Finn’s linkages while keeping their individual setups as well as all other variables out of it. Finn stated he had a 480lb spring in the vid Big Bird shared, I have no idea what spring Loic is running, and I have no idea what either of them weigh. And again, without having their bikes, or a good way to measure them, all the numbers are speculation. It’s possible Finn is running 180mm, kinda doubtful, but possible. I don’t hold to any exact number in regards to either of their bikes. As I’m sure you would be well aware, some links can change drastically from a millimeter here to there, and others less so. Trying to guess damping on either of their bikes is pretty worthless in comparing. Especially Loic’s, who knows what Ohlins is playing with inside the box. We could easily dive into all aspects of bottom out resistance via HSC, progressive springs, HBO designs being used by EXT/Push/and now RockShox(?), down to bottom out bumpers. But regardless of all of that, the original point was Finn has a more progressive bike with overall lower leverage, with less travel (which as agreed is a bit of an arbitrary number, especially in longer travel bikes) compared to Loic.

“A common misconception that is perpetuated frequently in bike reviews is that more progressive linkages allow you to run a softer spring, whereas it's actually the exact opposite.” - agree 110% to this statement. Have seen a lot of riders (usually lighter weight) end up in the low pressure/more tokens death spiral, and then wonder why their bike rides so heavy and dead. Older fork reviews perpetuated this belief about progression, when tokens became more common place.

Side topic since you’re here and it falls into this forum category. What’s up with patrol/spire links on repeaters? Same link as far as I can tell, no idea on clearance though.

Puckridesbikes wrote:

Hey Folks, Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12313/s1200_Screen_Shot_2022_03_29_at_11.14.46_AM.jpg[/img]

Hey Folks,


Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about?

Roots_rider wrote:

I feel like we’ve gone in circles agreeing on things, yet trying to discern what’s been typed? I agree with pretty much everything you said, and...

I feel like we’ve gone in circles agreeing on things, yet trying to discern what’s been typed? I agree with pretty much everything you said, and feel it mirrors much of what I typed in terms of spring rates to bottom out force. Joy of internet communication…

“Shock stroke and spring rate are the primary factors when comparing bottom out resistance between two linkage systems. Damping can largely be ignored because it can be set to whatever you want, but it's an important part of the bottom out resistance on a whole.” - which is why I was trying to make the comparison on the basis of same spring rate, and shock stroke while ignoring damping.

My hope with the original post was to stick purely to the difference in Loic’s vs Finn’s linkages while keeping their individual setups as well as all other variables out of it. Finn stated he had a 480lb spring in the vid Big Bird shared, I have no idea what spring Loic is running, and I have no idea what either of them weigh. And again, without having their bikes, or a good way to measure them, all the numbers are speculation. It’s possible Finn is running 180mm, kinda doubtful, but possible. I don’t hold to any exact number in regards to either of their bikes. As I’m sure you would be well aware, some links can change drastically from a millimeter here to there, and others less so. Trying to guess damping on either of their bikes is pretty worthless in comparing. Especially Loic’s, who knows what Ohlins is playing with inside the box. We could easily dive into all aspects of bottom out resistance via HSC, progressive springs, HBO designs being used by EXT/Push/and now RockShox(?), down to bottom out bumpers. But regardless of all of that, the original point was Finn has a more progressive bike with overall lower leverage, with less travel (which as agreed is a bit of an arbitrary number, especially in longer travel bikes) compared to Loic.

“A common misconception that is perpetuated frequently in bike reviews is that more progressive linkages allow you to run a softer spring, whereas it's actually the exact opposite.” - agree 110% to this statement. Have seen a lot of riders (usually lighter weight) end up in the low pressure/more tokens death spiral, and then wonder why their bike rides so heavy and dead. Older fork reviews perpetuated this belief about progression, when tokens became more common place.

Side topic since you’re here and it falls into this forum category. What’s up with patrol/spire links on repeaters? Same link as far as I can tell, no idea on clearance though.

CascadeComponents wrote:

I'm trying to hypothesize that both Finn and Loic have a particular spring rate that they like and are using the links to tune around the...

I'm trying to hypothesize that both Finn and Loic have a particular spring rate that they like and are using the links to tune around the spring rate for a specific feel. I would assume they each have a couple of particular spring rates that they run so bottom out resistance would be fairly fixed. That would leave the links to tuning to get a specific feel out of a fixed amount of bottom out resistance. I would hope they don't even focus on a specific travel number. Just balancing all the things that are not bottom out resistance.

Can't say for sure on the Repeater link since I haven't seen one in person. They do look the same and it wouldn't be unlike Transition to use the same link. No reason to reinvent the wheel for every bike in the lineup.

Primoz wrote:

Which part is BS?

Fred_Pop wrote:

Longer wheelbase makes it easier to weight front and back and makes it easier to feel when one or the other is about to lose traction...

Longer wheelbase makes it easier to weight front and back and makes it easier to feel when one or the other is about to lose traction.
Longer reach does make it easier for "lesser" riders to go faster due to the added stability but it does the same for "pro" riders.
Tighter stuff is fine so you as you change riding style/technique. Obviously, if you try to ride a longer bike off the back like a short bike it won't work.

Primoz wrote:

A longer wheelbase makes it harder to weight each wheel as it will require more of a movement to reach the same effect than on a...

A longer wheelbase makes it harder to weight each wheel as it will require more of a movement to reach the same effect than on a shorter wheelbase.

I don't exactly understand if you meant that the "Longer wheelbase makes it easier to weight front and back and makes it easier to feel when one or the other is about to lose traction." is the BS part or that you're claiming that. If it's the BS part, I never said that, I said the opposite, the same as I said in the beginning of this post. And that what makes a longer reach bike more forgiving and easier to ride.

I really think you misread something in my post as you were mostly saying similar things to what I said, that's why I replied only with the 'which part is BS', hoping you'd reread my post.

As for longer bikes being slower in the tight stuff, 100 % yes. Try riding some switchbacks. The longer the bike is, the more you need to do front pivots. And I've had cases where it felt the front wheel will fold under me on fairly tight switchback berms as the angle of attack of the front wheel was getting to be too big.

And look at me go, off-topic yet again.

Uncle Cliffy wrote:

How bout’ you guys start your own thread arguing wheelbases and save us the notifications eh?

Puckridesbikes wrote:

Hey Folks, Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12313/s1200_Screen_Shot_2022_03_29_at_11.14.46_AM.jpg[/img]

Hey Folks,


Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about?

kcy4130 wrote:

There available on Nobl's website, they call it sine technology. The shape looks familiar, but I can't remember where. And I could be wrong, but I...

There available on Nobl's website, they call it sine technology. The shape looks familiar, but I can't remember where. And I could be wrong, but I thought nobl was a rebrand company.

https://noblwheels.com/carbon-rims/

Edit: Nevermind, you were asking about the "He" branding not the unique shape. The shape does look like their current offering tho. Reading comprehension fail on my part.

Puckridesbikes wrote:

Hey Folks, Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12313/s1200_Screen_Shot_2022_03_29_at_11.14.46_AM.jpg[/img]

Hey Folks,


Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about?

kcy4130 wrote:

There available on Nobl's website, they call it sine technology. The shape looks familiar, but I can't remember where. And I could be wrong, but I...

There available on Nobl's website, they call it sine technology. The shape looks familiar, but I can't remember where. And I could be wrong, but I thought nobl was a rebrand company.

https://noblwheels.com/carbon-rims/

Edit: Nevermind, you were asking about the "He" branding not the unique shape. The shape does look like their current offering tho. Reading comprehension fail on my part.

Velocipedestrian wrote:

He = helium = lightweight rim?

brash wrote:

This isn't a rumour, but rather an observation. Anyone notice Young Finnley is looking Jacked and Swole AF! He isn't that little boy from those original...

This isn't a rumour, but rather an observation.

Anyone notice Young Finnley is looking Jacked and Swole AF! He isn't that little boy from those original fast life videos anymore, he's a grown ass man now! Brother has been on the squats, dead lifts and maple syrup program. Man handle that bike around my son, good to see!

It's like when your younger brother grows up and you realise he might just kick your ass if you get in a fight with him.

Loic and Finn going to be battling it out!

brash wrote:

This isn't a rumour, but rather an observation. Anyone notice Young Finnley is looking Jacked and Swole AF! He isn't that little boy from those original...

This isn't a rumour, but rather an observation.

Anyone notice Young Finnley is looking Jacked and Swole AF! He isn't that little boy from those original fast life videos anymore, he's a grown ass man now! Brother has been on the squats, dead lifts and maple syrup program. Man handle that bike around my son, good to see!

It's like when your younger brother grows up and you realise he might just kick your ass if you get in a fight with him.

Loic and Finn going to be battling it out!

Puckridesbikes wrote:

Hey Folks, Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12313/s1200_Screen_Shot_2022_03_29_at_11.14.46_AM.jpg[/img]

Hey Folks,


Just saw these new "He" NOBL rims on insta. Anyone know what they're about?

Noeserd wrote:

Is the new boxxer going to be 40 mm or this is for old totem? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12312/s1200_276219436_5639364416092709_3359606885620362817_n.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12311/s1200_277306084_5639364422759375_490149208618465592_n.jpg[/img]

Is the new boxxer going to be 40 mm or this is for old totem?

icantride wrote:

I'll copy my post from a few pages back as it seems to have gone under the radar "The Zeb, Lyrik, and Pike will all get...

I'll copy my post from a few pages back as it seems to have gone under the radar

"The Zeb, Lyrik, and Pike will all get refreshed in line with the the same chassis as the ones that came out with flight attendant. IE bleed valves, buttercups, new lowers castings. The new 38 mm Boxxer was marked as embargoed until March 2023, can't believe that though as in the spy shots it looks production ready, plus the first WC is just around the corner"

The new signature lyrik colour is this army green sort of colour and it doesn't look good 😆
The new shocks with HBO and HSC adjustment are also due for launch in May

Also they might be appearing on new bikes as they have apparently been available to order for OEM for a little while now

Noeserd wrote:

Is the new boxxer going to be 40 mm or this is for old totem? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12312/s1200_276219436_5639364416092709_3359606885620362817_n.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/03/29/12311/s1200_277306084_5639364422759375_490149208618465592_n.jpg[/img]

Is the new boxxer going to be 40 mm or this is for old totem?

melonhead1145 wrote:

Boxxer won't have a tool free Maxle, not sure any rockshox forks do anymore? my 2013 Revelation 150mm travel was tool free, my 2021 Lyrik is...

Boxxer won't have a tool free Maxle, not sure any rockshox forks do anymore? my 2013 Revelation 150mm travel was tool free, my 2021 Lyrik is tooled.

Boxxer will for sure use 38mm so it can part share with the Zeb.

centervillecycle wrote:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxm8TJyrLng Steering damping has been used in motocross for a number of years. Yamaha is starting to play with electric assist/dampening for their bikes. Does anyone...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxm8TJyrLng

Steering damping has been used in motocross for a number of years. Yamaha is starting to play with electric assist/dampening for their bikes.

Does anyone think this will make its way into mountain biking? I could see the dampening being used at the DH World Cup level.

Primoz wrote:

How often do you get a speed wobble on a MTB to need a damper?

Maybe you could sell some to timetrialists...

centervillecycle wrote:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxm8TJyrLng Steering damping has been used in motocross for a number of years. Yamaha is starting to play with electric assist/dampening for their bikes. Does anyone...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxm8TJyrLng

Steering damping has been used in motocross for a number of years. Yamaha is starting to play with electric assist/dampening for their bikes.

Does anyone think this will make its way into mountain biking? I could see the dampening being used at the DH World Cup level.