How would you stop Richie from flatting?

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8/15/2018 7:05 AM

Fun question regarding what has to be some soul crushing moments for Richie. How many times has he flatted over the last 10-15 EWS rounds? It has to be more than any other competitor.

I believe he's running DH casing + CushCore. While that would stop just about any mortal from flatting, its not enough for Thor himself.

How would you fix this problem?

Can some of the stats nerds tell me exactly how many times he's flatted the last couple seasons? Anyone know what percentage of those was on a coil? (I have a theory around this one!)

Considering he's one of 10ish guys to actually go for a win, I'd see if Cushcore can't make him a custom insert, or hell, stack two of them. Can Maxxis do some sort of special Richie-only casing that is like 1600 grams? Is there something that could be glued on the inside of the tire? I've heard of a mountain bike bib-mouse - could he run this?

Ultimately, what we are asking here is what is the most flat proof system you can possibly think of? One, in theory, Two, in reality (like what could we go buy to fix this).

Ready? Go.

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8/15/2018 8:10 AM

Pick better lines

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8/15/2018 10:13 AM

Prototype rims with bead locker, DH tires with cushcore and DH tubes LOL

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8/16/2018 8:19 AM

kolsen wrote:

Pick better lines

This... This happened to me the other day, aggressor dd, 30 psi, and huck norris. Stupid line choice on my part while hauling the mail trying to hit rock gaps on an old ohv trail. Racing isn't always about who is the fastest.


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8/16/2018 9:44 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/16/2018 9:47 AM

brines, i just want to hear your theory on air vs. coil and flat tires.

doing a QUICK cruise of richie's insta - https://www.instagram.com/richie_rude1/ - looks like he's been on an air shock since like june of 2017 until whistler this past weekend. don't hold me to this as fact.



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8/16/2018 10:17 AM

sspomer wrote:

brines, i just want to hear your theory on air vs. coil and flat tires.

doing a QUICK cruise of richie's insta - https://www.instagram.com/richie_rude1/ - looks like he's been on an air shock since like june of 2017 until whistler this past weekend. don't hold me to this as fact.



The Yeti is one bike I've spent a fair amount of time on. I really liked the suspension action, but it is fairly linear. http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016/04/yeti-sb55c-29-2016.html (the SB6 and 55 are the same curve)

This fits an air shock well, as one can use tokens to get the bike to ramp up as much or as little as they want. Allowing the rider to fine tune how they are using the bike's travel.

With a coil, you really can't alter this curve, and are relying on damping, specifically HSC damping to keep your bike from bottoming as the bike is linear, as well as the coil spring. This means for a given force, you are going to use more travel with a coil (assuming starting spring rate is the same) than you would an air shock, especially late into the shock's travel.

For most mortals, this isn't a huge deal. But for guys like Richie, or even heavy guys like me, its a big deal as the forces put through the system become exponential (big guys smashing) at speed.

There are other properties of an air spring that also help keep the system from blowing through its travel (an air spring is semi speed sensitive, as well as position sensitive - coils are not)

With the coil, you can find the end of the system in certain situations, and this puts additional stress on the wheel, tire, etc.

I've run coils on linear setups like that Yeti. It felt awesome. The grip was great. But I did flat every single race I did. (and I'm not richie...clearly)

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8/16/2018 12:35 PM

I'd be interested to see what the method of flatting was. Sidewall tear, rim destruction, tear in the tread, pinch flat etc. I wonder if he could pinch flat with cush core.

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8/16/2018 2:14 PM

andrew.macnaughton wrote:

I'd be interested to see what the method of flatting was. Sidewall tear, rim destruction, tear in the tread, pinch flat etc. I wonder if he could pinch flat with cush core.

Easily. I pinched a Maxxis DD aggressor with cush core- the hole was big enough for my pinkie finger to pass through. The same impact would have likely cut a DH tire.

I think a cush core with some kind of hard plastic hula hoop core (foam around it) would be interesting. Kind of like the THE Eliminator rim. Could probably prototype with some PEX tubing from your local Home Depot Racing store.


Unfortunately I think the real answer is:
-stronger/heavier rim to prevent dents/damage from leaking
-stronger/heavier tire to not get cut by super strong rim
-stronger/heavier cush core
-40 psi



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8/16/2018 3:19 PM

home depot racing is the future for sure.

so is there really no foam that has a density to make a tire feel "normal enough" yet not require air? basically a foam-filled tire that can never flat? i know they exist for kids bikes and commuters, but i assume the issue is feel/handling/weight?

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8/16/2018 3:36 PM

It's common in the moto world. I'd love to see it cross over.

Would it be possible to have a pourus enough foam that you can still fill with air and adjust psi for feel? Then if you do flat, have a foam density baseline feel of 22 psi or whatever. Sealant throws a big wrench in that plan but I feel like that's the ideal setup

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8/16/2018 5:00 PM

Speaking from experience, Enve's stripper wheels have eliminated my most common cause of flats - bead cuts/pinches. Those DT rims are strong as hell and build up great, but they do tend to cut beads. It's probably fairly well protected patent-wise, but otherwise a similar system could be adopted for alloy rims. This and DH casing tires are a nearly indestructible combo (I know, I know - Minnaar at VDS in '17). Together you'd be covered against pinches and tread punctures. Throw a Cushcore in there for one more level of insurance.

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8/16/2018 5:04 PM

This looks interesting, but I don't know of anyone using them and 500-600 grams each:

http://www.mrwolf.bike/smartmousse/



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8/16/2018 5:17 PM

jeff.brines wrote:

The Yeti is one bike I've spent a fair amount of time on. I really liked the suspension action, but it is fairly linear. http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016/04/yeti-sb55c-29-2016.html (the SB6 and 55 are the same curve)

This fits an air shock well, as one can use tokens to get the bike to ramp up as much or as little as they want. Allowing the rider to fine tune how they are using the bike's travel.

With a coil, you really can't alter this curve, and are relying on damping, specifically HSC damping to keep your bike from bottoming as the bike is linear, as well as the coil spring. This means for a given force, you are going to use more travel with a coil (assuming starting spring rate is the same) than you would an air shock, especially late into the shock's travel.

For most mortals, this isn't a huge deal. But for guys like Richie, or even heavy guys like me, its a big deal as the forces put through the system become exponential (big guys smashing) at speed.

There are other properties of an air spring that also help keep the system from blowing through its travel (an air spring is semi speed sensitive, as well as position sensitive - coils are not)

With the coil, you can find the end of the system in certain situations, and this puts additional stress on the wheel, tire, etc.

I've run coils on linear setups like that Yeti. It felt awesome. The grip was great. But I did flat every single race I did. (and I'm not richie...clearly)

however, during medium/hard successive hits around mid travel , with a more progressive bike I believe coil would forgive you more than an air shock that could pack more (i know a good setup can make air behave good, but coil wins in that situation), and that can backfire in your tires... I have not flatted with coil, never, cannot say the sme with air... (Canfield balance)..cheers..

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8/16/2018 5:23 PM

GA902 wrote:

It's common in the moto world. I'd love to see it cross over.

Would it be possible to have a pourus enough foam that you can still fill with air and adjust psi for feel? Then if you do flat, have a foam density baseline feel of 22 psi or whatever. Sealant throws a big wrench in that plan but I feel like that's the ideal setup

without pressure pushing the carcass, physics win and your same tire that you are using today will be flexy anyways... tire construction needs to change in order to do something like this...of have a foam "pressurized" or "forced" inside the tire...(if someone invents anything similar, I'll chase you down ; ) )

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8/16/2018 5:24 PM

Dave_Camp wrote:

Easily. I pinched a Maxxis DD aggressor with cush core- the hole was big enough for my pinkie finger to pass through. The same impact would have likely cut a DH tire.

I think a cush core with some kind of hard plastic hula hoop core (foam around it) would be interesting. Kind of like the THE Eliminator rim. Could probably prototype with some PEX tubing from your local Home Depot Racing store.


Unfortunately I think the real answer is:
-stronger/heavier rim to prevent dents/damage from leaking
-stronger/heavier tire to not get cut by super strong rim
-stronger/heavier cush core
-40 psi



And you're certain it was a pinch not a tear?
On a seperate note, do you feel more protected with a DD cushcore rather then a straight up DH tire?

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8/17/2018 12:55 AM

Some Schwalbe Magic Mary bikepark, DH tubes and he'll never see another flat

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8/17/2018 6:35 AM

andrew.macnaughton wrote:

I'd be interested to see what the method of flatting was. Sidewall tear, rim destruction, tear in the tread, pinch flat etc. I wonder if he could pinch flat with cush core.

Dave_Camp wrote:

Easily. I pinched a Maxxis DD aggressor with cush core- the hole was big enough for my pinkie finger to pass through. The same impact would have likely cut a DH tire.

I think a cush core with some kind of hard plastic hula hoop core (foam around it) would be interesting. Kind of like the THE Eliminator rim. Could probably prototype with some PEX tubing from your local Home Depot Racing store.


Unfortunately I think the real answer is:
-stronger/heavier rim to prevent dents/damage from leaking
-stronger/heavier tire to not get cut by super strong rim
-stronger/heavier cush core
-40 psi



andrew.macnaughton wrote:

And you're certain it was a pinch not a tear?
On a seperate note, do you feel more protected with a DD cushcore rather then a straight up DH tire?

For sure it was a pinch flat.

Not sure which is better- DD+Cushcore vs DH tire. I usually choose based on traction. DH tire has more grip & rolls slower, DD tires are usually faster rolling.

Also think about repairing vs run flat. You can run flat on cush core decently, but pulling it apart on the trail to put a tube in is really hard. I ran DD+Cushcore for mega avalanche to be able to roll fast and run flat if needed (I did run flat for about 15 min during qualifying).

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8/17/2018 8:37 AM

Michelin - seems to be working for Sam Hill

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8/17/2018 8:44 AM

kolsen wrote:

Pick better lines

The insert stuff definitely helps, but this is ultimately the issue. You can't simply mash over anything in your way. I ripped a tire last night simply because I rode a dumb line. Total buzzkill for the post work ride, but I simply picked an awful line.

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8/17/2018 8:59 AM

Grmasterd1 wrote:

Michelin - seems to be working for Sam Hill

but he is smooth AF

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8/17/2018 9:03 AM

kolsen wrote:

Pick better lines

Yup. But you guys can keep talking about equipment if you like. Sometimes riding at 95% is faster than 110%, and grace will often beat hulk-smashing your way down the mountain. That would also be the same way you stop Brook Macdonald and Gee Atherton from blowing up all the time. Sometimes slowing down and riding smooth is faster. Way faster.

Fun to watch, though. Keep up those hulk-smash videos!

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8/17/2018 9:06 AM

anyone have more info on their setups? Rim width, tire size, casing? Isn't Hill on a prototype?

That Mr. Wolf Smartmousse looks pretty interesting, anyone have more info?

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8/17/2018 9:14 AM


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8/17/2018 9:24 AM

big bear wrote:

Tire levers everywhere cringe in unison.

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8/17/2018 10:32 AM

I'm a moderately skilled weekend warrior mountain bike rider, and a highly skilled road course racing driver (Miata's) including some endurance races. I don't have much to add with regards to making adjustments to Richie Rude's riding because I just can't put as much energy into the bike/terrain as he can.

What I can interject with is what i know from endurance racing. The best endurance racing drivers know how to extract 98-99% from the vehicles capabilities without putting the car at 99-100% of what it can stand mechanically. In the track world, we describe it as mechanical empathy.

For example... If a car is capable of a 1:30 lap time on a given course... the best and most sought after drivers will be capable of doing a 1:29 - 1:29.5 without bouncing the car off curbs, short shifting by 200rpm on the back straight, coasting into 1-2 braking zones on track and maintaining minimum corner speed instead of charging into the braking zone hard. This sort of driving is what defines the difference between a good racer and a great racer.

This is what I think defines the difference between enduro and downhill racing. In downhill, flatout is the only option. It's an all in sport where the top 10 are separated typically by 1-5 seconds. It is by definition a sprint race. In contrast, enduro is very obviously, a game of endurance.

I think the big change over for enduro and by extension, for Rude in the last 2 years is that the competition, bike development and courses are forcing enduro to transition from a game of endurance into being a long distance sprint race. I think no one can deny Rude's ability to smash terrain with reckless abandon, but maybe the missing component is being able to achieve that 95-99% speed with 90% effort.

Maybe it's because he feels he's trying to bust a slump and he's over riding the terrain. Maybe the competition has grown in the last two years such that Rude feels he has to be at 100% to maintain a gap to competitors. Maybe it's just absolute, bad luck. It's tough to tell because there are so many variables.

What isn't tough to tell is that enduro is an ever shifting landscape and the last two years have had even more variables thrown into the mix then any I can remember in years previous EWS and UCI DH. I think the pace that the riders are holding themselves to my mean that some riding styles need to be adjusted in the name of finding consistency.

Either way, flats suck and they ruin racing just like crashes ruin racing on the automotive side. Some times you're the hammer, and some times, you're the nail

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8/17/2018 10:33 AM

kolsen wrote:

Pick better lines

smelly wrote:

Yup. But you guys can keep talking about equipment if you like. Sometimes riding at 95% is faster than 110%, and grace will often beat hulk-smashing your way down the mountain. That would also be the same way you stop Brook Macdonald and Gee Atherton from blowing up all the time. Sometimes slowing down and riding smooth is faster. Way faster.

Fun to watch, though. Keep up those hulk-smash videos!

I think thats why Sam is good. He's so confident with his speed, he knows he doesn't have to ride the ragged edge to win. Jesse is kind of like Richie, except Riche just breaks parts whereas Jesse keeps breaking himself. Neither are sustainable, and i think both probably have the speed to consistently compete for the top step when things go right.

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8/17/2018 11:18 AM

big bear wrote:

we just got a notification from our hosting company that our website is now too heavy to run hahaha

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8/17/2018 11:48 AM

big bear wrote:

Got a set of these in 4 ply that I made the mistake of putting on a hard tail 'temporarily', never bent so many levers or tore so many calluses in my life, still got them in perfect condition just in case I decide to build retro bike or need to remove my finger prints for any reason.

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8/17/2018 12:38 PM

big bear wrote:

Bigburd wrote:

Got a set of these in 4 ply that I made the mistake of putting on a hard tail 'temporarily', never bent so many levers or tore so many calluses in my life, still got them in perfect condition just in case I decide to build retro bike or need to remove my finger prints for any reason.

I ran these my first season in the WBP, on my hardtail (all I had at the time). Without air these things stood up with the weight of the bike!

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Sunshine & Slippery Trail

8/17/2018 2:46 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/17/2018 3:00 PM

jeff.brines wrote:

The Yeti is one bike I've spent a fair amount of time on. I really liked the suspension action, but it is fairly linear. http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016/04/yeti-sb55c-29-2016.html (the SB6 and 55 are the same curve)

This fits an air shock well, as one can use tokens to get the bike to ramp up as much or as little as they want. Allowing the rider to fine tune how they are using the bike's travel.

With a coil, you really can't alter this curve, and are relying on damping, specifically HSC damping to keep your bike from bottoming as the bike is linear, as well as the coil spring. This means for a given force, you are going to use more travel with a coil (assuming starting spring rate is the same) than you would an air shock, especially late into the shock's travel.

For most mortals, this isn't a huge deal. But for guys like Richie, or even heavy guys like me, its a big deal as the forces put through the system become exponential (big guys smashing) at speed.

There are other properties of an air spring that also help keep the system from blowing through its travel (an air spring is semi speed sensitive, as well as position sensitive - coils are not)

With the coil, you can find the end of the system in certain situations, and this puts additional stress on the wheel, tire, etc.

I've run coils on linear setups like that Yeti. It felt awesome. The grip was great. But I did flat every single race I did. (and I'm not richie...clearly)

If I'm not mistaken, some companies have been working with progressive bottom-out bumpers for the coil shocks, fox being one of those that I recall. Not sure how much force they can dissipate with them, or how close it would come to an air shock.

Regarding the moto mouse: It's available, but at least for outdoor nationals, it is one of their last resorts. Maybe only 1 or 2 tracks that the pro teams run them as they all prefer the feel of a standard air setup. At least the last time I was following the series that was the case.

Also regarding the air spring being "somewhat speed sensitive", could you clarify farther? Not sure I understand how the physics behind this would work.

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