B.S. Podcast - The Rise of DJI - From Drones to E-Bikes 28

Seemingly out of nowhere, DJI has changed the e-MTB market. Brines and Sponsel discuss how.

sspomer
7/9/2026 8:00pm
DJIpodA.jpg?VersionId=B

Vital contributors Jeff Brines and Charlie Sponsel are back with a BS Podcast episode unlike anything we've done before. The two go long-form on the company that has dominated every industry conversation for the past few months: DJI, and its bike-world offshoots Avinox and Amflow.

In early 2024, DJI had zero bike products. Today it makes the drive unit nearly every OEM wants, sells the complete bike everyone benchmarks against, and just announced a gearbox drivetrain that has the entire industry's attention. How did a drone company do this in under two years? Jeff traces an abbreviated history, from founder Frank Wang's dorm room and a $28,000 loan from his parents to the Phantom, the GoPro fallout, and the hostile takeover of DJI North America. Charlie digs into the Chinese history and Shenzhen manufacturing culture that make the company possible in the first place, because you can't understand where DJI is going without understanding where it came from.

From there, the two get into the questions the forum has been chewing on for months: Are Avinox and Amflow really independent from DJI? What does it mean when your motor supplier is also your competitor? Are Bosch, Shimano, and SRAM still in the race? And will you even recognize the bike industry in five years?

Heads up, this one is long. If history isn't your thing and you just want the analysis, skip ahead to the 1:15 mark. As always, we love listener feedback so chime in and tell us what we missed or what you liked. 

Chapters

  • (00:00:00) Intro: The Podcast Mulligan
  • (00:03:39) The History of DJI: Frank Wang's Origin Story
  • (00:07:06) Near Bankruptcy and the HKUST Talent Pipeline
  • (00:11:51) The Phantom Changes Everything
  • (00:15:41) GoPro, Colin Guinn, and the Hostile Takeover
  • (00:20:31) VC Money and Going Vertical
  • (00:23:21) COVID and the Decision to Enter E-Bikes
  • (00:25:23) Zero to Everything: Amflow, Avinox, and the Gearbox Tease
  • (00:27:32) Charlie's Deep Dive: China and the West
  • (00:34:45) The Opium Wars and the Century of Humiliation
  • (00:43:52) Mao, the Great Leap Forward, and Industrialization
  • (00:46:15) Deng Xiaoping and the Shenzhen Special Economic Zone
  • (00:49:00) The Five Kilometer Rule and Why China Builds Cheaper
  • (00:55:21) Lawyers vs. Engineers: US and Chinese Business Culture
  • (01:08:42) Collectivism vs. Individualism
  • (01:13:00) Analysis Begins: Is Avinox Actually Separate from DJI?
  • (01:22:51) The Conflict of Interest: Selling Motors to Your Competitors
  • (01:29:52) Will Amflow Stay a Bike Company?
  • (01:33:11) The Finance Answer: Cost of Capital and the Amazon Playbook
  • (01:43:05) The Gearbox: How Did They Do It?
  • (02:08:43) What About Bosch, Shimano and SRAM?
  • (02:18:11) The Regulatory Mess: New Jersey, California, and Europe
  • (02:35:56) Final Verdict: Step Change or Noise?
Related:
E-Bike
DJI
Avinox
Amflow
28 comments

View replies to: B.S. Podcast - The Rise of DJI - From Drones to E-Bikes

avatar.png?VersionId=TkOXSLqxgAC412Y 1F6UyzOaMSkN
Eoin
3 weeks ago

Holy Shit Brandon Semenuk has a podcast and he is talking about ebikes!!! Sign me up!

Wait a minute this is just Jeff and Robot, just as hyped!!!

4
avatar.png?VersionId=TkOXSLqxgAC412Y 1F6UyzOaMSkN
anotherbikerguy
2 weeks ago

Haven't gotten all the way through yet, but I'm finding this very interesting. Thanks for providing a platform/outlet for this kinda stuff. 

3
c50 93C6B4C3 8879 4DE1 A5D7 14F1677F10EA 1526141561
SaddleRags
2 weeks ago

Wow, great job on this topic. Thanks for weaving this together into a podcast. 

I’m fascinated by the avinox origin story which goes something like this from what I’ve heard: as they looked to diversify products years ago (probably Covid related) a couple of bike passionate guys in the company suggested e-bikes, after some quick prototyping they shopped around their product to industry players years ago, got a bad reception, and decided to forge ahead on their own. 

1. Does this jive with your understanding of their development? I know we’re playing what if’s but can you imagine if say Trek or Specialized had exclusivity to this system, what the ramifications would be! Some people are probably kicking themselves. 

2. I agree that it’s somewhat fraught to have amflow alongside canyon, both vying for the same customers, but at least for now, avinox’s approach of partnering with whoever comes to the table is good for a number of bike brands and for customers to have options. 

3. Are ebikers overhyping avinox’s offerings? If we’re all detuning their M2S motors and are going up the trail about the same speed as a bosch CX, then the differences in systems are pretty minimal. Is a slimmer motor and battery that big of a deal? 

4. ECVTs are a new animal for sure but it’s interesting that of the 5 concept frames shown, amflow wasn’t one. What are the end goals with their house brand frame company amflow? 

2
c50 88521480 1251936778
TEAMROBOT
2 weeks ago

Thanks for listening!

Vital user pamtbr shared a rumor on the first page of the DJI forum thread similar to the same origin story you mentioned above, but Jeff and I have never heard anything to corroborate it and I don't know what pamtbr's source is, so as far as we're concerned it's apocryphal at best:

"'I'm curious if anyone knows whether the DJI motor origin story rumor has any merit.

As the rumor goes, at some point in time, Mike Sinyard was looking to develop something along the lines of a Surron. They were starting to pop up in the streets of California, and every kid had to have one. In the past, maybe they got mom & dad to drop several grand on a Specialized. Someone set out to find more powerful motors in China. DJI is well known for making good, lightweight motors and batteries for their drone business. Specialized was working with them on a motor system to go in their ebikes first, and then got cold feet. All of a sudden, DJI had a system and no bike partner, so Amflow entered the picture to demonstrate its capabilities to the broader industry.

Perhaps this is just a folk legend or a game of telephone. Makes me wonder how far above Class 3 on the Levo they'd really like to go, though. It must be tough to be a big bike company, watching the ebike/emoto startups taking your youth audience at a rapid clip."

Regarding your question about Avinox's end goals with their house brand frame company Amflow, that's exactly what Jeff and I are wondering, and what we discussed at  01:29:52 in the podcast.

2
c50 07292017 ClownShoes DGS 013 1504569742
chriskief
2 weeks ago

(Only) an hour in, but this is great so far.

2
133883128132591439
w4s
2 weeks ago

most interesting, enlightening, informative conversation I've heard in so long.  Great podcast, more of these please.

2
c50 IMG 20211027 155910 1655061393
Primoz
2 weeks ago

Loving this, more of this please.

3
c50 2022 08 15 15.27.47 1665671417
Mtn-Goat-13
2 weeks ago

Great pod btw gents, per usual.

I'm a fan of all the bikes: XC, DH, dj, enduro, trail and now my E... but I have a "flaming trash" Shimano ep6 motor/batt on a 2023 Marin Alpine E.  Aside from the DH bike, I'll call it the single most fun bike I've ever owned in 36 yrs of riding and it is a pure beast of jolly good times that I have upgraded substantially from stock.  

But with Jeff's rightful call that "Shimano is out" now - which makes total sense (since clearly DJI or anyone surely isn't going to make motors / batt ecosystems that retrofit and replace Shimano or other batt templates / formats / systems - does that mean I need to go ahead and buy a new ep6 or 8 motor & battery as backups for when mine die, since maybe none will be in stock (because I'm def not buying a new ebike in the next 3-5 years). Even w/ the bikes I have I ain't rich, so lifespan matters and the Marin is nothing but hoop-hollering fun so I def don't want Death of Shimano motors / batts / non-availability to tank that until it is just totally dead and beyond repair. 

2
c50 88521480 1251936778
TEAMROBOT
2 weeks ago

It'd be interesting to know what your all-in cost is for a new Shimano motor and battery, and what's even available for replacement for that specific bike. Basically you're asking what the breakeven point is between repairing vs. replacing, and what it would cost to "stock up for the coming motor apocalypse," which would be a great question for the ebike thread: https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/e-bike-talk-not-tech-rumor-derailment 

I also keep wondering if some aftermarket vendor is going to crack the code for repairing or refurbishing old motors like yours at a competitive cost. 

2
c50 2022 08 15 15.27.47 1665671417
Mtn-Goat-13
2 weeks ago

Much obliged on the input amigo. I suppose the all-in cost is... uh, not sure exactly?  Maybe $12-1500? At present I can't even find an 630wh battery (EN-806) anywhere in the US but haven't checked w/ an actual dealer yet who would have access to those warehouses that other sellers do not... yet another annoying and full planned way to foil the average Joe and Jane. Motors seem to be $3-500 for the ep6 and $5-700 for the ep8 (ebay) with again, not having checked w/ authorized shop dealers and that doesn't include install / setup which I'm sure is anothe paywall. So...yeah, after typing all that I guess it feels like I'd be effed already. Perhaps. Maybe. 

I'm sure the answer to the following is NO since nothing can work and there are surely phys / mech / legal / profit-based reasons why not but since Shimano Will Die - and there are prob a few million bikes with Shimano motor/batt ecosystems on them, coudn't the new DJI overlord cabal whip out some identically sized replacements w/ batts (etc) and have that be a biz vein? I laugh as I type this b/c I'm sure even if every rider wanted to add that to their soon-to-be-extinct ep6 / 8's on otherwise good frames - that's just not gonna be a thing vs. the arftermarket vendor repair / refurb thing?  I think I already know the answer but had to ply...

1
c50 shirt mask box 300 1629850291
Brian_Peterson
2 weeks ago

What about the the rumor that the Gobao will bolt into existing Shimano motor mounts?  Plus they have Shimano style displays available.  That potentially puts an option out there for people who want an updated motor for their Shimano bike..

Definitely interested to hear if someone has actually done it..

3
c50 149187 936024901533 10205078 50991835 3734911 n
jeff.brines
2 weeks ago

Came here to basically say this. Big picture, if Shimano does bow out, my bet is a Chinese company (maybe Gobao, maybe someone else) steps in. Gobao seems far less averse to reverse engineering motors (I am riding one now, seems very similar in a lot of ways to the EP8 - just better). 

Did Shimano only make one variant of each motor or are there a high number of packagings (dimensions they fit into)? If its the latter, it gets tricky, if its the former, bet on something coming if Shimano stops aiming at eebs.

2
c50 shirt mask box 300 1629850291
Brian_Peterson
2 weeks ago

As far as I know, the Shimano motors all use similar physical dimensions..

Batteries could be the biggest hurdle, but Gobao offers at least 4 different Batteries currently. So, there's a chance one of them could work..

3
c50 2022 08 15 15.27.47 1665671417
Mtn-Goat-13
2 weeks ago

Gotcha both (Jeff & Brian) - thanks for the input and this is super interesting to contemplate... probably unknown but is there any idea how soon Shimano motor / batts might implode?  Seems like that could be literally for all 2027 bikes or maybe by 2028 as who's gonna want to build a bike around Shimano motors now? 

I'd debated a 630wh battery soon just to be able to pull huge days so my last question is: do you forsee Gabao ramping up anything like this soon or would that take some time, like years. I can pull a big day off this little battery now if I want and that's great, but a full day's riding would be even more fun - but I'd rather score a better reverse-eng motor / batt system (if that exists) eventually than sit on more batts & parts that are just Ok. 

PS: realizing this is probably a couch surfing, spendthrift question but I hate burning cash, esp in this spiraling outta control economy

1
c50 shirt mask box 300 1629850291
Brian_Peterson
2 weeks ago

A lot to talk about on this... First the history lessons were actually great. I do believe that a company's past can help predict their future moves..

I do believe DJi removing their name from things as much as possible has a lot to do with the drone stuff.. Put a bit of separation between the companies and not get too much government attention. Especially since our government can be pretty narrow in their focus.  See the current Polestar/ Volvo EV situation. 

  Now, it's kinda surprising that companies are will to overlook the Avinox/ Amflow connection because the consumer demand for that motor is great enough.  The traditional line of though in the bike biz is that if you are an OEM part supplier, you don't make bikes.

The DJI way of handling restrictions in airspace and the introduction of the Class 3 mode aeem to be an indicator of what we'll see if the ebike laws get sorted out.  I think they will offer an update to the bike and it will be left to the consumer to handle it. That will be the least downloaded update ever. I'm sure there's more I could touch on, but gotta get out the door to work. 

2
c50 1437042722001 1620911630
tabletop84
2 weeks ago

The situation in europe can get really bad in terms of trail access. Already without ebikes there was a lot of pressure from land owners, hunters and in general the rural population to get mountainbikers banned from trails. For example in austria its illegal to even ride fireroads with bicycles. For hiking trail access in the alps outside of bikeparks more powerful ebikes mean more unskilled people on mountains crowded by tourists. And the locals make more money with hikers and skiers and mountainbikers or cyclists in general are culturally at a disadvantage. So I fear sweeping bans for ebikes or even all mountainbikes for singletrails in europe.

The avinox hype is also really stupid in that regard because of the range constraints that come with a more powerful motor. Yes the fast chargers or carrying a second battery will mitigate it but still the marketing hype is just giving ammunition to our natural opponents and opposted lobbyists who want to ban mountainbikes from the woods and mountains.

So we're basically sacrificing the unique bike infrastructure in the alps to a few more watts (that you can't even use if you're doing backcountry stuff) and shifted units. 

1
c50 117231893 129236308861889 3131534000538834550 n 1 1644262064
Digit Bikes
2 weeks ago

Thank you chaps, I loved the pod (which I listened to while driving my Ford EV - they do exist!😁).

Did you get any impression that DJI tried to partner with existing bike companies when launching the motor? I imagine if a large, established bike company were approached in 2021 with a motor that disregards the 750w requirement of most markets, that they'd've been 100% disinterested. Selling such a bike would jeopardize brand trust, their company stores, dealer relationships, required recalls, etc... Once you're over 750w, why not 7500w?

Since DJI already have experience clashing with FAA, DOI, DOD, DOT, GAO, etc, and their international brethren - dealing legally with bike path access agencies probably seems quaint.

From what I've seen enforceable federal regulation of ebikes/emotos is quite likely in the not too distant future. Regulations will be established to support sidewalk and highway use, protect pedestrians and limit liability for the bicycle industry - as you said MTB and trail access is relatively insignificant, so our influence on deciding regulations will also be relatively insignificant.

2
c50 88521480 1251936778
TEAMROBOT
2 weeks ago

Yes, Jeff interviewed people at DJI/Avinox and they said tried to partner with existing bike companies when launching the motor, but were basically told no thanks by everyone. As the story goes, that's why they created Amflow bikes. Creating a complete ebike wasn't plan A.

1
c50 shirt mask box 300 1629850291
Brian_Peterson
2 weeks ago

That makes alot of sense in my opinion.. Especially if the Specialized rumor is true.  So coming in with a fully developed motor and nobody using it makes for a hard sell.  I do believe that Amflow was originally a proof of concept that ended up taking on a life of it's own. If you think about it, the timing was pretty good for them.. The legacy brands are in trouble and they have financial backing that anyone in the bike industry would give up a body part to get.. Now, like mentioned in in pod, not only can they expand their presence in the ebike market,  they can move into the micro mobility market with 2 names already established. 

1
avatar.png?VersionId=TkOXSLqxgAC412Y 1F6UyzOaMSkN
s-master
2 weeks ago

Awesome podcast, for sure! I greatly enjoyed it.

Just one comment on the topic of eCVT operation: I wouldn't say that the pedals and rear wheel are not mechanically connected. They are, through the planetary gear set. The catch is that to transfer torque from the pedals to the rear wheel, one of the motors has to provide the reaction torque that braces against the pedaling torque, and the speed of that motor is also what sets the effective gear ratio. In the event of a flat battery (or a system failure), your legs would just spin that motor, which gives the impression that the pedals aren't connected to the rear wheel. But if you locked this motor in place, the latch would provide the torque necessary, and you would be locked in a single gear. Based on the design and gear ratios, this could be chosen as a "limp home" single speed gear. 100% mechanical connection.

Mechanically, the system is relatively simple. The hardest problem to solve is the control algorithm. Even without auto shifting (just fixed, predetermined gears), the system needs to react very quickly and accurately to counteract the pedaling torque adequately. Torque at the pedals changes throughout a single pedal stroke, and the system has to track it and react, same for a sudden stomp on the pedals. Otherwise, the pedaling would feel like the rear wheel and pedals are connected with a rubber band chain.

And for all of this to work, you also need small, powerful, fast reacting motors. Below 1kW might not be enough for a good user experience. It looks like they are now powerful enough to make this viable.

1
c50 88521480 1251936778
TEAMROBOT
2 weeks ago

That's not my understanding of an eCVT, based on my conversation with the engineers at Also. They made it sound like the two systems ran on separate motors and were only connected by wires, not gears.

It's possible I'm an idiot and have misunderstood the engineer, but is it possible that the term "eCVT" can mean multiple things? I don't know if the Avinox system or Gobao's system is the same as Also, so I have no clue, but it seems to me that eCVT was an automotive term before it was a bike term, so I'm wondering if the term can mean something different in these two different contexts. For instance, what you're describing above sounds exactly like the way that the Toyota Prius "HybridDrive" transmission works to partner the ICE motor with the electric motor in one driveline. But it doesn't sound like what I heard from Also.

2
c50 IMG 20211027 155910 1655061393
Primoz
2 weeks ago

What you are describing in regards to Also is a series hybrid like what the... Bolt from Chevy is. Or a diesel electric locomotive. Neither of which is the same as a Prius which is still a parallel hybrid. 

2
avatar.png?VersionId=TkOXSLqxgAC412Y 1F6UyzOaMSkN
s-master
2 weeks ago

Correct, I was basically describing a Prius system. 🙂
It's totally possible that the design is different and that I'm wrong. I just assumed it would be similar to the Prius eCVT. In my mind, that made the most sense. But what do I know? 😅
 

1
c50 IMG 20211027 155910 1655061393
Primoz
2 weeks ago

If they have two motors I think the primary motor is connected to the crankshaft to double up on the power input then there's the second motor for the planetary drive to handle the gear ratios. Otherwise it doesn't compute to me if it has two motors. And I don't think it would fly having only one motor and having said motor plus the crank as inputs to the planetary and the chainring as the output. I don't think you'd get the power outputs and gear ranges we are seeing that way... 

1
avatar.png?VersionId=TkOXSLqxgAC412Y 1F6UyzOaMSkN
s-master
2 weeks ago

Yes, this makes sense. In this case primary drive motor (with its gear reduction) sees less output speed variation, because human cadence is quite inflexible.

1
1000003688 1
OnlyHams
2 weeks ago

Most excellent, a great listen.

1

Deals