MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
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6/9/2022 9:49pm
So even with a two piece caliper (same tool for both sides) the seal groove tool is a custom ordered part? Or can you make do with a standard tool?

I knew about the groove being angled, but kinda ignored it here, obviously for the worse Smile

Thanks for the in-depth, hands-on info!
6/9/2022 11:24pm
@CascasdeComponents: about your last point, rather than going with bigger pistons at the Caliper which seems to be a problem and add unsprung weigth too, why don't we see more manufacturers going with smaller MC bores ? Considering power is dictated by the ratio MC/Caliper it seems to be a valid way to gain power. Hope finally coped on with their new lever, Hayes and Trickstuff also use a 9mm bore MC so why not going 7 or 8mm if you need even more power and keep caliper pistons arround 15/16mm for a 4 piston ?
gibbon
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6/10/2022 1:24am
@CascasdeComponents: about your last point, rather than going with bigger pistons at the Caliper which seems to be a problem and add unsprung weigth too, why...
@CascasdeComponents: about your last point, rather than going with bigger pistons at the Caliper which seems to be a problem and add unsprung weigth too, why don't we see more manufacturers going with smaller MC bores ? Considering power is dictated by the ratio MC/Caliper it seems to be a valid way to gain power. Hope finally coped on with their new lever, Hayes and Trickstuff also use a 9mm bore MC so why not going 7 or 8mm if you need even more power and keep caliper pistons arround 15/16mm for a 4 piston ?
Larger ratio between lever and caliper means more lever travel to move the pistons. Then you run into pad clearance issues (say hello FormulasR1's).
1
6/10/2022 3:21am
@CascasdeComponents: about your last point, rather than going with bigger pistons at the Caliper which seems to be a problem and add unsprung weigth too, why...
@CascasdeComponents: about your last point, rather than going with bigger pistons at the Caliper which seems to be a problem and add unsprung weigth too, why don't we see more manufacturers going with smaller MC bores ? Considering power is dictated by the ratio MC/Caliper it seems to be a valid way to gain power. Hope finally coped on with their new lever, Hayes and Trickstuff also use a 9mm bore MC so why not going 7 or 8mm if you need even more power and keep caliper pistons arround 15/16mm for a 4 piston ?
gibbon wrote:
Larger ratio between lever and caliper means more lever travel to move the pistons. Then you run into pad clearance issues (say hello FormulasR1's).
What are you talking about ? All MC from Formula from that era were 11.5mm which is rather big, aside from the R1R lever that came towards the end of that era of brakes which was 9.75mm. You can also end-up with a lot of lever throw because of your lever design and mechanical leverage. Considering the hydro leverage that was rather poor on this generation of brakes, long throw had to be due to lever blade design.
gibbon
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wales GB
6/10/2022 4:03am
@CascasdeComponents: about your last point, rather than going with bigger pistons at the Caliper which seems to be a problem and add unsprung weigth too, why...
@CascasdeComponents: about your last point, rather than going with bigger pistons at the Caliper which seems to be a problem and add unsprung weigth too, why don't we see more manufacturers going with smaller MC bores ? Considering power is dictated by the ratio MC/Caliper it seems to be a valid way to gain power. Hope finally coped on with their new lever, Hayes and Trickstuff also use a 9mm bore MC so why not going 7 or 8mm if you need even more power and keep caliper pistons arround 15/16mm for a 4 piston ?
gibbon wrote:
Larger ratio between lever and caliper means more lever travel to move the pistons. Then you run into pad clearance issues (say hello FormulasR1's).
What are you talking about ? All MC from Formula from that era were 11.5mm which is rather big, aside from the R1R lever that came...
What are you talking about ? All MC from Formula from that era were 11.5mm which is rather big, aside from the R1R lever that came towards the end of that era of brakes which was 9.75mm. You can also end-up with a lot of lever throw because of your lever design and mechanical leverage. Considering the hydro leverage that was rather poor on this generation of brakes, long throw had to be due to lever blade design.
Calm down dear.....someone will love you one day.
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Primoz
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6/10/2022 4:10am Edited Date/Time 6/10/2022 7:15am
Smaller pistons overall mean more pressure in the system (for the same clamping force in the caliper). Might mean more difference front to rear as the hose will deform differently (will take up more volume due to more expansion).

As for lever throw, there is still the option of swing links and the like. But yeah, we are fairly limited with available lever throw and force due to the overall system - the fingers have a finite length and strength. The envelope mtb brake designers work in are fairly limited while the users want more power and more pad clearance. And a low cost. Now pick two.

3
6/10/2022 9:34am
Yeah it's still a custom tool even for two piece calipers. Conveniently it's an angle that taper mills exist in so it's just a matter of getting most of the upper portion of the flutes ground off so that it can undercut. With a single piece caliper it would have to be a ground down dovetail or something entirely custom. Both of those are definitely trickier to source, but not impossible.

Decreasing MC size gives you higher brake line pressures. Code levers hit 3000 psi easily as is. I would be hesitant to increase that further considering there's another upside to larger calipers... heat. More fluid volume and more caliper surface area helps a fair bit when it comes to dealing with heat. I don't think the unsprung mass is a big hit considering our calipers are only 7g heavier than Code calipers. I think you could go even larger and not take a huge hit on weight.

Increasing power does have some unavoidable consequences with either lever feel or pad retract. If you decrease pad retract the lever feel can stay where you want it, but your rotors have to be absolutely true to not ping off the pads. I tried super small pad retract like that and couldn't get the pads to never rub. It didn't create significant drag, but the rubbing sound is annoying. If you add too much more ramp to the lever early in it's stroke you can get a funny sticky feeling in the early stroke. I messed around with cam geometry a fair bit to try and find the point where ramp is increased without running into that sensation. If you go to crazy with the ramp you definitely run into hand fatigue issues when trailing the brakes. At the end of the day I think a combination of the two is the way to go. I think It would be possible to add another 15% at least and still have the levers feel good.

Cars and motorcycles get the super high braking power they need without feeling like absolute mush by having negligible pad retract and having the rotor or caliper float side to side. The drag is minimal, but that's relative the power put out by a motor. Plus you can't hear rotors rubbing over all the other noise.
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Primoz
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6/10/2022 9:49am
Cars gain most of the power through the booster. It's not the case for motorcycles though. On motorbikes this is not the case. On the other hand most motorcycle riders two finger brake?

Increasing the power by 15 % by fiddling with the cams, is it impacted by the tolerances (i.e. do they have to be really tight, so the mechanism would be expensive to make)?
1
6/10/2022 10:23am
Primoz wrote:
Cars gain most of the power through the booster. It's not the case for motorcycles though. On motorbikes this is not the case. On the other...
Cars gain most of the power through the booster. It's not the case for motorcycles though. On motorbikes this is not the case. On the other hand most motorcycle riders two finger brake?

Increasing the power by 15 % by fiddling with the cams, is it impacted by the tolerances (i.e. do they have to be really tight, so the mechanism would be expensive to make)?
Well yeah there's the booster too, but if you had the pads retract it would be absolutely horrendous braking. You can also stop most regular vehicles without the booster though. Provided that does involve a whole lot of standing on the brake pedal.

Cams are super easy to do with really tight tolerances. It's all in the same set up.
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3ullit
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6/10/2022 10:47am
Yeah it's still a custom tool even for two piece calipers. Conveniently it's an angle that taper mills exist in so it's just a matter of...
Yeah it's still a custom tool even for two piece calipers. Conveniently it's an angle that taper mills exist in so it's just a matter of getting most of the upper portion of the flutes ground off so that it can undercut. With a single piece caliper it would have to be a ground down dovetail or something entirely custom. Both of those are definitely trickier to source, but not impossible.

Decreasing MC size gives you higher brake line pressures. Code levers hit 3000 psi easily as is. I would be hesitant to increase that further considering there's another upside to larger calipers... heat. More fluid volume and more caliper surface area helps a fair bit when it comes to dealing with heat. I don't think the unsprung mass is a big hit considering our calipers are only 7g heavier than Code calipers. I think you could go even larger and not take a huge hit on weight.

Increasing power does have some unavoidable consequences with either lever feel or pad retract. If you decrease pad retract the lever feel can stay where you want it, but your rotors have to be absolutely true to not ping off the pads. I tried super small pad retract like that and couldn't get the pads to never rub. It didn't create significant drag, but the rubbing sound is annoying. If you add too much more ramp to the lever early in it's stroke you can get a funny sticky feeling in the early stroke. I messed around with cam geometry a fair bit to try and find the point where ramp is increased without running into that sensation. If you go to crazy with the ramp you definitely run into hand fatigue issues when trailing the brakes. At the end of the day I think a combination of the two is the way to go. I think It would be possible to add another 15% at least and still have the levers feel good.

Cars and motorcycles get the super high braking power they need without feeling like absolute mush by having negligible pad retract and having the rotor or caliper float side to side. The drag is minimal, but that's relative the power put out by a motor. Plus you can't hear rotors rubbing over all the other noise.
Why didn't you go that route with your calipers? Just like the Gustav M was? I mean that is just the technique, and as we all like to wrench I don't think the maintenance would be the problem. That was an amazing brake, too bad the adaption to PM is such a pain, as disk sizes changed as well..

BTW, I have the North Forks, really loving them, just have one piston that is slightly wet, but I will, for the moment, just monitor that...
6/10/2022 11:43am Edited Date/Time 6/10/2022 11:45am
3ullit wrote:
Why didn't you go that route with your calipers? Just like the Gustav M was? I mean that is just the technique, and as we all...
Why didn't you go that route with your calipers? Just like the Gustav M was? I mean that is just the technique, and as we all like to wrench I don't think the maintenance would be the problem. That was an amazing brake, too bad the adaption to PM is such a pain, as disk sizes changed as well..

BTW, I have the North Forks, really loving them, just have one piston that is slightly wet, but I will, for the moment, just monitor that...
It's just another hurdle to install something. Part of the idea with those calipers was to have as much cross compatibility as possible. It turns into an even more expensive pain really quick.

Oh and if you need to replace that seal let us know. Every now and then defective seals pop up and we'll gladly send out a fresh set.
2
Big Bird
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6/10/2022 1:24pm
It's just another hurdle to install something. Part of the idea with those calipers was to have as much cross compatibility as possible. It turns into...
It's just another hurdle to install something. Part of the idea with those calipers was to have as much cross compatibility as possible. It turns into an even more expensive pain really quick.

Oh and if you need to replace that seal let us know. Every now and then defective seals pop up and we'll gladly send out a fresh set.
Sorry if I'm uninformed, but you guys make brakes too?
Primoz
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6/10/2022 1:31pm Edited Date/Time 6/10/2022 1:37pm
https://cascadecomponents.bike/products/north-fork-caliper

I see there's a replacement cam for the RSC brakes available too, didn't see that one before!
https://cascadecomponents.bike/products/brake-cams

Speaking of Gustavs, you mean the sliding caliper? Cars use those calipers because it means you have a single-sided caliper. Wheel fitment is easier (the caliper doesn't protrude out as much), all the hydraulics are single sided, etc. The issue is that the pins where the caliper slides on notoriously seize up. And cars usually have enough side-to-side space to have it properly supported to not bind, could be an issue on bikes too. I really wouldn't want that on my bike to be honest, what we have works plenty fine compared tot he potential problems (and marginal gains) the Gustav approach would bring.

Also, why the downvotes on the booster comment on the last page? o.O
There's literally nothing downvote worthy in it, it's all correct.

3
6/10/2022 2:16pm

Pit bits 3 from Leogang, pic 26 (i think): Is this a proto Hayes D-series 220mm rotor? O_o
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1
Jon_Angieri
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Broken Arrow, OK US
6/10/2022 2:39pm
Banned!!!!!!
4
sspomer
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Boise, ID US
Fantasy
6/10/2022 6:36pm
Banned!!!!!!
JerseyMojo wrote:
???
hitar accidentally triple-posted, Jon was joking haha (i deleted the excess posts)
2
6/11/2022 5:07am
Banned!!!!!!
JerseyMojo wrote:
???
sspomer wrote:
hitar accidentally triple-posted, Jon was joking haha (i deleted the excess posts)
Sorry, not sure if it’s my phone or if it’s the internet network that freezes the website sometimes - wasn’t intentional.
ONTOPIC - really interested in the possibility of a 220mm D-series rotor. Does someone know someone in Hayes that can unofficially confirm it’s gonna happen for us regular folks and it’s not just a proto for the Gamux racing team? 😁
2
Big Bird
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6/11/2022 8:56am Edited Date/Time 6/11/2022 8:58am
JerseyMojo wrote:
???
sspomer wrote:
hitar accidentally triple-posted, Jon was joking haha (i deleted the excess posts)
Sorry, not sure if it’s my phone or if it’s the internet network that freezes the website sometimes - wasn’t intentional. ONTOPIC - really interested in...
Sorry, not sure if it’s my phone or if it’s the internet network that freezes the website sometimes - wasn’t intentional.
ONTOPIC - really interested in the possibility of a 220mm D-series rotor. Does someone know someone in Hayes that can unofficially confirm it’s gonna happen for us regular folks and it’s not just a proto for the Gamux racing team? 😁
They did one years ago. I'm not sure if they ever sold them to bike companies, but early ZERO electric motorcycles used them. I've got some on my trials bike.
FullSend
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DE
6/11/2022 10:43am Edited Date/Time 6/11/2022 10:48am


New Marzocchi Bomber Air shock.

It seems to be very similar to a Fox Float X, but mirrored side to side and with a slightly offset and tilted reservoir. Found it in Marzocchi Germany's web shop.

https://www.marzocchi.de/collections/shocks/products/bomber-air?variant=42154242670745

Anybody else not that excited? All I want from Marzocchi is a long-travel coil fork, preferrably in an upside-down arrangement.
5
1
lewzz10
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GB
6/11/2022 10:50am
FullSend wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/11/12594/s1200_Marzocchi.jpg[/img] New Marzocchi Bomber Air shock. It seems to be very similar to a Fox Float X, but mirrored side to side and with a slightly...


New Marzocchi Bomber Air shock.

It seems to be very similar to a Fox Float X, but mirrored side to side and with a slightly offset and tilted reservoir. Found it in Marzocchi Germany's web shop.

https://www.marzocchi.de/collections/shocks/products/bomber-air?variant=42154242670745

Anybody else not that excited? All I want from Marzocchi is a long-travel coil fork, preferrably in an upside-down arrangement.
Curious! Marz claiming it’s for frame comparability & ergonomics - interesting to see them have a new development of their own? Everything else has just been tweaked Fox stuff.
1
Whattheheel
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Spearfish, SD US
6/11/2022 10:55am
But I'm left handed?? Laughing
3
6/11/2022 11:57am
sspomer wrote:
hitar accidentally triple-posted, Jon was joking haha (i deleted the excess posts)
Sorry, not sure if it’s my phone or if it’s the internet network that freezes the website sometimes - wasn’t intentional. ONTOPIC - really interested in...
Sorry, not sure if it’s my phone or if it’s the internet network that freezes the website sometimes - wasn’t intentional.
ONTOPIC - really interested in the possibility of a 220mm D-series rotor. Does someone know someone in Hayes that can unofficially confirm it’s gonna happen for us regular folks and it’s not just a proto for the Gamux racing team? 😁
Big Bird wrote:
They did one years ago. I'm not sure if they ever sold them to bike companies, but early ZERO electric motorcycles used them. I've got some...
They did one years ago. I'm not sure if they ever sold them to bike companies, but early ZERO electric motorcycles used them. I've got some on my trials bike.
You mean the v9 old design? I had the v8 - 203mm. Although they were OK, i changed them with Shimano rt-76 and never looked back. - they were so much better. Now i’m on Dominions with the D-series rotors, but 203/180 combo and wanna go to 220/220 (i tend to reach the heat limits of 203 rotors).
gibbon
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wales GB
6/11/2022 11:59am
Aaaaaaaah that's making my left eye twitch uncontrollably........
1
6/11/2022 12:19pm
FullSend wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/11/12594/s1200_Marzocchi.jpg[/img] New Marzocchi Bomber Air shock. It seems to be very similar to a Fox Float X, but mirrored side to side and with a slightly...


New Marzocchi Bomber Air shock.

It seems to be very similar to a Fox Float X, but mirrored side to side and with a slightly offset and tilted reservoir. Found it in Marzocchi Germany's web shop.

https://www.marzocchi.de/collections/shocks/products/bomber-air?variant=42154242670745

Anybody else not that excited? All I want from Marzocchi is a long-travel coil fork, preferrably in an upside-down arrangement.
Better fit on Stumpjumpers that.
Big Bird
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Oceano, CA US
6/11/2022 12:39pm
You mean the v9 old design? I had the v8 - 203mm. Although they were OK, i changed them with Shimano rt-76 and never looked back...
You mean the v9 old design? I had the v8 - 203mm. Although they were OK, i changed them with Shimano rt-76 and never looked back. - they were so much better. Now i’m on Dominions with the D-series rotors, but 203/180 combo and wanna go to 220/220 (i tend to reach the heat limits of 203 rotors).
Whenever it was that they made the Stroker Ace brakes. A good while ago.
taifi
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RO
6/11/2022 12:50pm
FullSend wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/11/12594/s1200_Marzocchi.jpg[/img] New Marzocchi Bomber Air shock. It seems to be very similar to a Fox Float X, but mirrored side to side and with a slightly...


New Marzocchi Bomber Air shock.

It seems to be very similar to a Fox Float X, but mirrored side to side and with a slightly offset and tilted reservoir. Found it in Marzocchi Germany's web shop.

https://www.marzocchi.de/collections/shocks/products/bomber-air?variant=42154242670745

Anybody else not that excited? All I want from Marzocchi is a long-travel coil fork, preferrably in an upside-down arrangement.
lewzz10 wrote:
Curious! Marz claiming it’s for frame comparability & ergonomics - interesting to see them have a new development of their own? Everything else has just been...
Curious! Marz claiming it’s for frame comparability & ergonomics - interesting to see them have a new development of their own? Everything else has just been tweaked Fox stuff.
I could benefit of this design on my trek rail for example…
6/11/2022 2:23pm
You mean the v9 old design? I had the v8 - 203mm. Although they were OK, i changed them with Shimano rt-76 and never looked back...
You mean the v9 old design? I had the v8 - 203mm. Although they were OK, i changed them with Shimano rt-76 and never looked back. - they were so much better. Now i’m on Dominions with the D-series rotors, but 203/180 combo and wanna go to 220/220 (i tend to reach the heat limits of 203 rotors).
Big Bird wrote:
Whenever it was that they made the Stroker Ace brakes. A good while ago.
Yep, that’s what i had - Stroker Aces with v8 rotors. Turned out the rt-76 were better with them brakes. Now however Hayes have done an outstanding job, just wanna go as big as possible - a D-series 220mm would be the perfect choice!
pdon
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Cashmere, WA US
6/11/2022 2:25pm Edited Date/Time 6/11/2022 2:27pm
That Marz shock is super intriguing. Assuming it is extremely competitively priced like the Bomber CR, it could be a great option for a lot of riders.

In a world of $700+ shocks, it would be awesome to see a decent air shock that can take some abuse at a significantly lower price
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