2015 Racing Rumours - MTB Musical Chairs

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3/11/2015 12:50pm
Primoz wrote:
I'd say it's the fender not conforming to the arch and being longer, therefore not showing the gap with light. Commencal are sticking with aluminium, they've...
I'd say it's the fender not conforming to the arch and being longer, therefore not showing the gap with light.

Commencal are sticking with aluminium, they've said it's cheaper and that carbon is not worth the bother for a company their size and that aluminium is good enough. They used to have carbon Meta 5.5s and swingarms on the 5.5 and 6 (plus a hardtail), but that was it, the V3 (second gen basicly) Meta was all ALU, V4 is as well.

As for the Supreme frame, maybe it's different, but the architecture is the same as far as i can see.
Actually, Max Commencal goes a bit further than that - he is not very impressed with the working conditions at the carbon manufacturing facilities he has visited, and wants no part of making bikes there until that changes. Laying up carbon frames in-house (in Andorra) would currently cost way too much for the market to stomach of course.
Primoz
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3/11/2015 1:04pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2015 1:05pm
Yeah, the likes of Trek or Specialized or some of the Germans (Open cycles) can or could take that hit due to the brand image (the first two are big, huge brands, Open Cycles is German, which in the minds of many is a sign of engineering quality). I can hardly see that with Commencal, while i have nothing against the company. I am still after all riding a Meta 5.5, a 2008 model year that was notorious for cracking, that still holds up under me after almost 7 full years of abuse. On the other hand i managed to crack in one way or another three XC frames, two of those carbon. So dunno, was i just that lucky at picking the bike? Smile

The new Meta also does look sweet, i'd maybe fix a few bits on it f i was the one designing it, but all in all, it looks cool, is impressively speced and the prices are not that bad (though i think i'd go with the Reign, it's 500 € cheaper in the spec i want here in Slovenia).

Though i am genuinely interested how much a carbon bike or frame produce in Europe would have to sell for to at least break even. Though i feel it's just a matter of time with rising shipping costs, currency fluctuations, the East's rising average salaries and now the state of manufacturers, as you said based off Max's words.

You do also have the problem of knowledge base being very much there, besides the costs. Bikes are i would say (though i am no expert, but i am a mechanical engineer with an interest in composites) quite specific, if made monocoque, since you need bladders and at least a 2-part tool, in for example Specialized's previous Demo case at least three even. And you have many awkward joints. A racing car tub is much simpler and those are also usually made in two pieces, if we are talking about for example Le Mans coupes. And even then a vast part of the internal voids is filled up with aluminium honeycomb.

Are there any experts here that can chime in on this topic? I'd love to hear/read/get to know more about it.
3/11/2015 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2015 2:05pm
Ham Billy wrote:
The new Nukeproof .....[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2015/03/11/2067/s1200_11041739_789713027778098_840585897497003812_n.jpg[/img]
The new Nukeproof



.....


depeche4 wrote:
who is that on it? Figure the main guys would have got the new bike before anyone else. We shall see if Sam shows to the...
who is that on it?

Figure the main guys would have got the new bike before anyone else. We shall see if Sam shows to the nationals this weekend if he is on something new.

dave
Hes an Irish rider Chris McGlinchey off the Irish Nukeproof development team I think.The bike is alloy and looks like a combo of the scalp and pulse with a bit of demo 8 thrown in haha.It has been streamlined and looks a lot lighter too.This is definatly the new bike as there are a few guys from Chain reaction racing in Ireland and always have the latest prototypes
depeche4
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3/11/2015 2:47pm
Primoz wrote:
Yeah, the likes of Trek or Specialized or some of the Germans (Open cycles) can or could take that hit due to the brand image (the...
Yeah, the likes of Trek or Specialized or some of the Germans (Open cycles) can or could take that hit due to the brand image (the first two are big, huge brands, Open Cycles is German, which in the minds of many is a sign of engineering quality). I can hardly see that with Commencal, while i have nothing against the company. I am still after all riding a Meta 5.5, a 2008 model year that was notorious for cracking, that still holds up under me after almost 7 full years of abuse. On the other hand i managed to crack in one way or another three XC frames, two of those carbon. So dunno, was i just that lucky at picking the bike? Smile

The new Meta also does look sweet, i'd maybe fix a few bits on it f i was the one designing it, but all in all, it looks cool, is impressively speced and the prices are not that bad (though i think i'd go with the Reign, it's 500 € cheaper in the spec i want here in Slovenia).

Though i am genuinely interested how much a carbon bike or frame produce in Europe would have to sell for to at least break even. Though i feel it's just a matter of time with rising shipping costs, currency fluctuations, the East's rising average salaries and now the state of manufacturers, as you said based off Max's words.

You do also have the problem of knowledge base being very much there, besides the costs. Bikes are i would say (though i am no expert, but i am a mechanical engineer with an interest in composites) quite specific, if made monocoque, since you need bladders and at least a 2-part tool, in for example Specialized's previous Demo case at least three even. And you have many awkward joints. A racing car tub is much simpler and those are also usually made in two pieces, if we are talking about for example Le Mans coupes. And even then a vast part of the internal voids is filled up with aluminium honeycomb.

Are there any experts here that can chime in on this topic? I'd love to hear/read/get to know more about it.
I just got a 5010 carbon on warranty from SC. The value of it for customs was 600 bucks. So, you figure that they sell it anywhere from 2800 to 3200 and the cost on it is that. What do you think it actually costs them to make it?
I know about R and D and stuff like that, but I am curious what the $$ would be.

If you want to know why more people do not build in the developed world look at the price of Reynolds and ENVE wheels. Almost twice the price than their Asian counterparts.

dave
Primoz
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3/11/2015 3:25pm
Basing off the warranty and MSRP prices of a Santa Cruz frame is not a good way to judge costs, since i'm pretty sure SCs are also made in the far east. And you don't know the R&D, marketing and profit margins.

No idea what the costs would, literally no idea, i am after all still finishing up college (masters degree), so i am completely clueless in this regard. But i am genuenly interested what the pure production costs per piece are in the far east and what they would be for the same product in Europe, in European Union (that's a wide area, since you have Sweden, Germany and the like on one end and Romaina and BUlgaria on the other end of the spectrum). So no marketing, no R&D costs, no profit margins, since those would be the same between the two.
LTrumpore
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3/11/2015 3:58pm
depeche4 wrote:
I just got a 5010 carbon on warranty from SC. The value of it for customs was 600 bucks. So, you figure that they sell it...
I just got a 5010 carbon on warranty from SC. The value of it for customs was 600 bucks. So, you figure that they sell it anywhere from 2800 to 3200 and the cost on it is that. What do you think it actually costs them to make it?
I know about R and D and stuff like that, but I am curious what the $$ would be.

If you want to know why more people do not build in the developed world look at the price of Reynolds and ENVE wheels. Almost twice the price than their Asian counterparts.

dave
FYI, Taiwan well exceeds the criteria for 'developed nation' status, coming in just behind Japan and about on par with Belgium and Austria.

The tooling (and I believe the carbon) for Reynolds wheels is made Stateside, then shipped to their own factory in Guangzho, China

Big Bird
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3/11/2015 6:25pm
LTrumpore wrote:
FYI, Taiwan well exceeds the criteria for 'developed nation' status, coming in just behind Japan and about on par with Belgium and Austria. The tooling (and...
FYI, Taiwan well exceeds the criteria for 'developed nation' status, coming in just behind Japan and about on par with Belgium and Austria.

The tooling (and I believe the carbon) for Reynolds wheels is made Stateside, then shipped to their own factory in Guangzho, China

Hey If we wanted facts, we'd ask you. This is supposed to be wild speculation and folly! Back to the subjects please.
depeche4
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3/11/2015 6:33pm Edited Date/Time 3/11/2015 6:33pm
Did not mean to start a political debate!
3/12/2015 10:29am
Mo(n)arch wrote:
There is something new in the box at Commencal: [img]http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/27/68fee67587a84d200e282de14faeb314.jpg[/img] For comparsion: [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/17625/setup_checks/26392/photos/27320/s1600_IMG_67931.jpg?1406143858[/img] But maxbe I am wrong...
There is something new in the box at Commencal:


For comparsion:



But maxbe I am wrong...
I think you are right! Spot on! The frame is definitely different.
Commençal has been leaking some hints on a new DH frame design (V4). According to that photo of Thirion riding the new frame (posted on a french forum -26in.fr), it definitely is a new suspension design :



"Looks like" a Bulls WildCore from that angle.
Primoz
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3/12/2015 11:50am
Ah, i was looking at the bottom picture thinking it's the new frame, yeah, it's definitely changed around, there is no longer a faux bar arrangement, there's a much bigger swingarm incroporated this time. I doubt they went with a fourbar linkage, it's not their style.
sspomer
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3/12/2015 2:43pm
new knee pads from specialized? long upper gasket. saw these in a video clip from a shoot with brosnan





Primoz
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3/12/2015 3:02pm
Does Santa Cruz really have that much money to burn?
csermonet
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3/12/2015 4:02pm
Santa Cruz was heavily mentioned in the article as well. You would think as a main sponsor they would get more real estate than a little sticker on the quarter panel
91001
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3/12/2015 5:30pm
Pretty crazy, right? Anyway, sorry for the threadjack.





astrizzle
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3/12/2015 10:57pm
I must have those kneepads....
yannml
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3/13/2015 10:58am
sspomer wrote:
new knee pads from specialized? long upper gasket. saw these in a video clip from a shoot with brosnan [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2015/03/12/2069/s1200_specdpad1.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2015/03/12/2070/s1200_specdpad2.jpg[/img]
new knee pads from specialized? long upper gasket. saw these in a video clip from a shoot with brosnan





peecee
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3/13/2015 11:21pm





peecee
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3/15/2015 3:03am
New linkage on Troys bike for the win today at the Australian nationals

Primoz
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3/15/2015 4:16am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2015 4:18am
I think the rear end might be a bit shorter. Otherwise the shape isn't that different to the current linkage (as far as triangulation of the pivots goes).

http://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb11289313/p5pb11289313.jpg

On the other hand, looking at the picture of the aluminium link, it might just be a machined out aluminium link for lightness (with the majority of the green parts of the link removed).

The Athertons for example had the rocker bridge removed on the Supreme V3. And there have been other similar mods done to the bikes before.

EDIT: yeah, the stock CS length is 430, you can hardly go shorter on a DH bike Smile
lister_yu
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3/15/2015 4:33am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2015 4:34am
nehuen93 wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=845213735544460&set=vb.226293040769869&type=2&theater Looks like a new carbon frame from gt
after 30sec in that video you can get a good view on the fury - is it the carbon one? looks a bit different but could also be the resolution of the headcam

http://ride.io/videos/athertons-malaga/


edit: a jeep for mtb - don´t think so ;-)
Primoz
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3/15/2015 7:32am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2015 7:38am
It'd be quite a complicated mold if this is carbon TBH... Smally, finnicky features with small, finicky coutouts.

It does look really smooth (carbon-like), but i think i might be seeing a weld by the upper rocker thingie mount between the 'seat tube' or better yet the vertical plates and the top tube at 0:32. There's a suspicious ridge/bulge/something.

The shock mounts are also really thin, there's the seat tube brace, both looking at the before mentioned finnicky parts. I'd say it's a smoothed out aluminium frame, where the welds have been grinded down.

It also seems like the headtube is welded onto the top and downtubes, while the Facebook video from Rachel's page is much more certain to be carbon.

EDIT: 1:22, clearly welded, down by the BB, the shock mounts, the swingarm, etc. Aluminium.

lister_yu
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3/15/2015 8:13am
damn, I thought I found something good
Primoz
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3/15/2015 9:30am
It's easy to get excited, not look properly and get ahead of yourself. I've certainly been there, done that, will do it again, many times over. Smile
peecee
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3/15/2015 3:53pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2015 3:55pm
Jackson Frew at the Australian nationals yesterday which looks carbon to me ? Theres a clip on Racheal Athertons Facebook to of her on the ski lift and its definielty carbon also heard on another from from someone who is currently in NZ and saw it in the flesh


peecee
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3/15/2015 4:02pm


3/15/2015 4:04pm
Primoz wrote:
I think the rear end might be a bit shorter. Otherwise the shape isn't that different to the current linkage (as far as triangulation of the...
I think the rear end might be a bit shorter. Otherwise the shape isn't that different to the current linkage (as far as triangulation of the pivots goes).

http://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb11289313/p5pb11289313.jpg

On the other hand, looking at the picture of the aluminium link, it might just be a machined out aluminium link for lightness (with the majority of the green parts of the link removed).

The Athertons for example had the rocker bridge removed on the Supreme V3. And there have been other similar mods done to the bikes before.

EDIT: yeah, the stock CS length is 430, you can hardly go shorter on a DH bike Smile
Looks like whatever Brosnan's got going on back there, Gwin's got it too. I thought I was imagining it when I first looked at this shot but now I'm more convinced.
https://instagram.com/p/0LHTxMFSpm/

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