Avinox M2 & M2S Drive Unit - Discussion and Details

jalopyj wrote:

Well said. I think it is irresponsible of both dji and brands to say "just be responsible". It's not merely a matter of having the power...

Well said. I think it is irresponsible of both dji and brands to say "just be responsible". It's not merely a matter of having the power and choosing not to use it. It's that when its available to everyone at scale, it will cause problems. 1500 watts man...

yzedf wrote:

Automotive has done it for decades. Blame the user, not the equipment. 

Ob917 wrote:

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range...

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range extender option. 

Ob917 wrote:

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range...

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range extender option. 

ethanrevitch wrote:

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more...

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more and more people not caring about super high outputs but rather a bike that can just be more efficient and a hell of a lot lighter. If DJI can make a 700wh battery output 1500w that weighs 45-50lbs what's stopping them from making a 700-800wh bike that weights 38lbs to compete more with Bosch? 

Ob917 wrote:

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range...

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range extender option. 

ethanrevitch wrote:

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more...

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more and more people not caring about super high outputs but rather a bike that can just be more efficient and a hell of a lot lighter. If DJI can make a 700wh battery output 1500w that weighs 45-50lbs what's stopping them from making a 700-800wh bike that weights 38lbs to compete more with Bosch? 

Ob917 wrote:

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range...

I agree. To much power and weight. I’d take 1/2 the power and 1/2 the weight, in a reliable smooth and quiet package. With a range extender option. 

ethanrevitch wrote:

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more...

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more and more people not caring about super high outputs but rather a bike that can just be more efficient and a hell of a lot lighter. If DJI can make a 700wh battery output 1500w that weighs 45-50lbs what's stopping them from making a 700-800wh bike that weights 38lbs to compete more with Bosch? 

TheKaiser wrote:

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could...

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could go from 45-50lbs down to 38lbs. Their new M2S motor weighs about 5.75lbs, so they would need to get it down to 0lbs to achieve your target.

ethanrevitch wrote:

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more...

Exactly. The 1500w seems like more of a proof of concept I have a feeling that the crave won't last for very long. I find more and more people not caring about super high outputs but rather a bike that can just be more efficient and a hell of a lot lighter. If DJI can make a 700wh battery output 1500w that weighs 45-50lbs what's stopping them from making a 700-800wh bike that weights 38lbs to compete more with Bosch? 

TheKaiser wrote:

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could...

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could go from 45-50lbs down to 38lbs. Their new M2S motor weighs about 5.75lbs, so they would need to get it down to 0lbs to achieve your target.

ethanrevitch wrote:

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w...

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w to 600w is pretty big downsizing. 

TheKaiser wrote:

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could...

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could go from 45-50lbs down to 38lbs. Their new M2S motor weighs about 5.75lbs, so they would need to get it down to 0lbs to achieve your target.

ethanrevitch wrote:

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w...

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w to 600w is pretty big downsizing. 

TheKaiser wrote:

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new...

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new Avinox 700Wh at 220Wh/kg and the numbers are only creeping up very slowly (their 1gen 800s were 214Wh/kg if memory serves). 

ethanrevitch wrote:

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w...

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w to 600w is pretty big downsizing. 

TheKaiser wrote:

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new...

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new Avinox 700Wh at 220Wh/kg and the numbers are only creeping up very slowly (their 1gen 800s were 214Wh/kg if memory serves). 

LemonadeMoney wrote:

What if Avinox made a 350w battery, and detuned the M2 to mid power. A bike weighing in the low 40lbs would be possible?If you could...

What if Avinox made a 350w battery, and detuned the M2 to mid power. A bike weighing in the low 40lbs would be possible?

If you could swap out the battery for a 700w, and switch the motor back, you'd have the best of both worlds?

TheKaiser wrote:

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new...

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new Avinox 700Wh at 220Wh/kg and the numbers are only creeping up very slowly (their 1gen 800s were 214Wh/kg if memory serves). 

LemonadeMoney wrote:

What if Avinox made a 350w battery, and detuned the M2 to mid power. A bike weighing in the low 40lbs would be possible?If you could...

What if Avinox made a 350w battery, and detuned the M2 to mid power. A bike weighing in the low 40lbs would be possible?

If you could swap out the battery for a 700w, and switch the motor back, you'd have the best of both worlds?

Yoda wrote:

The Maxon motor promised almost this exact concept. I like that DJI is in now in the game, as it looked like Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Shimano...

The Maxon motor promised almost this exact concept. I like that DJI is in now in the game, as it looked like Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Shimano, etc were content to sit back and make incremental gains rather than push the envelope related to weight, power, and reliability. An actual way to get ahead of DJI will be for a company to develop the next gen gearbox/motor combo. 

The next-gen battery tech available somewhere 2028-30 will at very best cut battery weights in half, and motors there won't be much aside from lightweight casings and smaller packaging. If we assume an unrealistically optimistic 50% battery weight reduction and 25% motor weight reduction from the current Avinox or Bosch CX-R an 800Wh system weight will still be 4kg / 8.5-9lbs... at that weight a proper trail build could be similar to modern SLs, but I don't thinking longer travel full power builds will really drop below 45lbs. 

On a negative note, looks like delivery schedules for most avinox bikes (ex Atherton, Commencal) continue to be pushed back. I hope that's not DJI strategically choking their supply chains so they can rush product out under their own label first. 

crunat wrote:

One argument that’s been lost on me is the claim that theirs still a speed limit on the bike , so it’s ok.There’s even a comparison...

One argument that’s been lost on me is the claim that theirs still a speed limit on the bike , so it’s ok.

There’s even a comparison above to the Tesla plaid cheetah mode. My perspective is that there’s also a big difference. 

Yes, you can take an insanely powerful Tesla out on the roads, but that’s inherently a structured environment. There’s signs , lanes, reflectors for the edge of the road, clear sight lines, etc. So if you’re gonna go do 120 in a Tesla you have at least some chance of predicating or seeing what all the other cars and various obstacles are doing . Then there’s enforcement , there’s a pretty strong disincentive to do this, if you’re going fast enough it’s criminal, but even slower violations are pretty discouraging for most .

For e-bikes, none of this structure exists. Imagine if we gave everyone teslas in cheetah mode, put them on a windy road with poor sight lines, no lanes, drivers going both directions, and most of all, each driver knows there’s no risk speed or acceleration based enforcement. Bound to be messy 

For me the biggest sticking point with these extra powerful bikes isn’t the torque value, or the peak wattage. It’s the assist level . Having to put in effort , is a huge disincentive to going at the 20mph speed limit of my e bike in its lower modes. 800% assist , starts to blur the lines between pedals and throttle. Humans just generally make different choices when going fast takes effort vs when it’s very easy. If we kept assist levels capped at 400% , that would mean you’d need to input 375w to get Avinox’s 1500w output . Most of us aren’t putting out 375 for too long, but with the current 800% assist I only need to put out 187. I can keep that up for long enough that the motor will start derating . And for me that’s the problem in a nutshell. Control % assistance , and manufacturers can have all the wattage and torque they want .

jeff.brines wrote:

There are three guarantees in life: death, taxes, and the internet being absolutely certain that every new e-bike motor release is going to end in disaster.I...

There are three guarantees in life: death, taxes, and the internet being absolutely certain that every new e-bike motor release is going to end in disaster.

I like to think my view of the world is pretty empirical and observational. So with that in mind, can anyone point me to actual examples of trail closures caused by e-MTBs? We’ve obviously seen issues with SurRons, but my brief Google search and AI-assisted digging turned up basically nothing beyond trails being opened to e-bikes. I cannot find evidence of trail networks being closed to mountain bikes because e-MTB use has meaningfully increased on-trail conflict.

The idea that added torque and motor support is somehow equivalent to unleashing hordes of beginners on fire-breathing CRF450s doesn’t really check out to me either. The prior Avinox motor was already very powerful, and last time I checked, people were not blowing uphill corners because of it. Maybe a larger number of riders on these bikes changes that. I’m skeptical.

To be fair, I live in a tiny town in Idaho where motorized-access trails are everywhere. Dirt bikes, horses, hikers, and mountain bikes are often on the same trail at the same time, and the only real trail issues are dirt bike vs dirt bike. In my opinion, the real issue is the silence, not the motor itself (if everyone can hear each other we're better off). I also think there’s a fair amount of hypocrisy here. Vital is full of gravity riders who regularly exceed 20 mph going downhill on shared trails, and now suddenly the sky is falling? Yes, I understand the argument about surface area and overall exposure, but again, the data that this is leading to incidents just does not seem to be there.

The toothpaste is out of the tube, and it’s highly unlikely to go back in. The only real change I’d expect is more trail management around directionality and use patterns. But the idea that wattage wars alone are going to trigger mass trail closures just doesn’t hold much water for me.

I know, I know. Unpopular opinion.

Time will tell.

jive turkey wrote:

Let's see how it shakes out in Moab. Don't forget, Alta Utah was one of the first ski areas in the country to allow snowboarding.

TheKaiser wrote:

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could...

While I fully empathize with your wish that DJI had focused on reducing weight rather than boosting power, it is unrealistic to think that they could go from 45-50lbs down to 38lbs. Their new M2S motor weighs about 5.75lbs, so they would need to get it down to 0lbs to achieve your target.

ethanrevitch wrote:

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w...

Yeah that was a hyperbolic weight (no math done). I don't know if a 40lbs bike is that hard to achieve in a few years? 1500w to 600w is pretty big downsizing. 

TheKaiser wrote:

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new...

If we ever get 400Wh/kg battery densities, then it will be a very real possibility! Unfortunately, the highest I'm aware of right now is the new Avinox 700Wh at 220Wh/kg and the numbers are only creeping up very slowly (their 1gen 800s were 214Wh/kg if memory serves). 

kperras wrote:

Correction: Avinox actually designed their own cell. I'm kinda surprised, but maybe not for a company their size. The 5048 cell they used in based off...

Correction: Avinox actually designed their own cell. I'm kinda surprised, but maybe not for a company their size. The 5048 cell they used in based off the tabless 4680 design that Tesla came up with, but appears to optimize the shape for the "right size" downtube. I stick by my take that the automotive industry will keep driving the future waves of battery tech. The bike industry is just too small. 

 

Larger industries (automotive for ex.) are driving the battery innovation at a commercial level. The FP700 battery uses a relatively new 4680 cell format that Tesla designed pre-covid and contracted battery manufacturers to make. Those individual cells have a similar power density of commonly used 21700s (~240-330wh/kg) but have some advantages when it comes to power and performance metrics, and case design. 21700s which predate the 4680s are still in use across the automotive and bicycle industries, and before then we were using 18650s. Just follow the car makers to see where things go with solid state tech. It all seems imminent, but I believe that bikes won't see SSB tech for quite some time as it's not used in cars yet.