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The Vital MTB Crew
i just take the train over to germany, let them put in a new leg for 75eur and then go ride the freiburg trails 👌
Awesome to hear its been successful. I'd bet the product is pretty amazing so please don't take this the wrong way but I learned decades ago there is a lot of choice support bias in the mountain bike (and broadly, outdoor) industry. You more than anyone knows this, but we end up with weird tribalism around parts, brands, and ideas that borders on NFL level fandom.
This forum is really good at decoupling this, mostly cause its a bunch of old guys at this point, but I'd really love to hear someone's thoughts on the product who is fast, objective, "tenured", not scared to say "yeah, I bought the wrong thing" and has no financial incentive to steer me wrong. As an aside, I know the big media outlets often do have financial incentive to skew more positive, but one can usually parse a good understanding of how something works from a handful of reviews; if they exist. I guess price is very limiting on this one, but it is shocking to me (pun intended) there isn't even a YouTube hack like me who has picked up the fork and done a deep dive.
Looking forward to the OP's thoughts here!
You might be right about all of this, and I love the objective evidence to support your idea. I want to be very clear, just because I'm skeptical of the solution being the only solution doesn't mean I am somehow skeptical of improving suspension performance. My entire set of questioning is based around seeing a trend toward something (USD) and asking "why". I want to hear what trade-offs we are really making, and why we've stuck with RSU single crowns for so long if USD is plainly better. Maybe its just cost and weight, which is what it sounds like to me at this point, but I am also not following why we've been so allergic to dual crown USD forks for so long. The dorado has been around, and working very well, for a long time. Why haven't we seen a bigger adoption of this fork? Market capture and marketing on behalf of Manitou? Other technologies that weren't so great in that fork (I genuinely don't know).
I know bushing alignment, tolerance and performance is a huge thing to aim at in the suspension world. If you go way back to my review of the Pike when it first came out (10 years ago?) you'll see I flag this (much to the dismay of RS at the time). The way a fork operates under load often leaves a lot to be desired and I'm sure we can improve here. To those who have commented, maybe the design of USD makes solving this inherently easier.
Also, @TheSuspensionLabNZ - I did listen to the pod though it was a long time ago. I love Darren and am more or less playing Devil's Advocate because I'd like to eek out a little more intel on the reality of the design (from him). I know there are trade offs not being as readily discussed, just like most anything in the design-engineering world. Or hey, maybe I'm wrong and this one has been under our noses the whole time and we just got scared by the Shiver SC USD fork 20 years ago. Time will tell!
We have plans to test a Push Nine One this summer. I'm looking forward to it!
why not an intend too? because you would need to buy it instead of getting one provided?
Fair question. Money is definitely one reason why we haven't bought an Intend to test (or 2772 reasons). In a perfect world, I would love for Vital to buy all of our test products at MSRP, like Consumer Reports used to do (Consumer Reports is now a dead husk of their former self). But buying all our test products would require either a) more revenue from advertisers, or b) moving to a subscription model and charging viewers, which other bike sites have done (Velo, Radavist, etc), or c) more $$$ from advertisers AND charging viewers for a subscription, which people really hate.
But the other, more significant reason why I think we haven't tested an Intend is just down to the portion of the MTB market that Vital communicates to vs. Intend's target market. Vital's demographic centers around North American and English-speaking parts of the world (US, Canada, UK, NZ, Oz, etc), and Intend's prime market is a 500 km circle drawn around Freiburg, Germany. Yes, we do have continental Euro's on the site, but there are so many other MTB sites for the German, French, Italian, Spanish, and even the UK market. For Intend, it makes sense to focus their limited marketing budget on those sites. For us, we only have so many testers on staff, and thoroughly testing products takes time, which is another scarce resource.
I was just in Leogang for two different media camps and was amazed at how many great journalists I met from European websites and magazines that I'd never even heard of. Those websites are already reviewing Intend products regularly. By comparison, literally no one I met over there had seen the Vorspung Telum shock on my bike or even heard of Vorsprung the company, which blew my mind. Everyone was puzzled and fascinated by the shock on my bike, reaching out and touching it in curiosity and amazement. Lesson learned: Vorsprung is also a regional NA brand, like Intend is to the Euro market. Doesn't mean either company is bad, but when we have to go out and pay money for parts (which we have done), we'd rather buy them from companies that are relevant to our core readership.
thing is, just by judging the behavior in this thread, you won’t get the same fork as the op who paid for his fork. you will get the review ready, polished push with the quality management one would expect and don’t have to send the fork back for the inspection the fork would habe needed initially.
btw, is the push fork already back at the op? an intend would habe left the shop again on the very next day, just sayin‘…
wow, someone is pushing really hard for intend
(no pun intended)
Got the intend. You can tell just by looks that its something of very high qualtiy. Its a bit longer than my previous foxzocchi so i might need to downtravel a bit but i will try it lile it is first. I love the looks thought.
Currently im on 2 cracked rims so i will not get to ride it this weekend but just stare at it, i did push on it thought and as it has been stated before the carpark test doesnt really reveal any of the magic.
Cant wait to ride!
So follow up, i put new wheels on the bike and went for two rides since i installed the intend fork. Here is what i learned so far.
First ride was just horrible. I went with my bodyweight in psi in the air chamber and as sugested on the page i put bodyweight x 1.8 in the linearizer. Its very dry here so most trails are slippy. But on that day i really couldnt find any good things to say about the fork.
I then texted cornelius and he replied within 2 hours (!), with more appropriate settings for me. I also put a longer stem that was laying around on, to account the now higher front of the bike. Next day i went to the alps and did some proper enduro stuff and also a little bikepark lap. It was a night and day difference. The fork felt way plusher but still composed and rode higher in the travel. I noticed that through the chunk and roots i could go faster without trying harder, wich is very cool. I do however still miss a bit the small bump sensibity wich everyone raves about. Im considering lowering the psi in the air chamber even more.
Im comming from a bombzocchi coil fork, and i feel like that one is very very plush but dives hard on the brakes. I will have to play around on settings but the intend is very promising and i can see that this fork could be the best fork i ever ridden if i manage to set it up according my skills and my preferences. The hype could be real!
Anyone rides their Intend fork with the less progressive air spring cap? I haven't started messing with the setup much until I'll have gotten a good feeling of the baseline configuration, and I am slowly getting there. I generally prefer more linear fork springs so this change should be right up my alley.
remove the linearizer and you get your small bump sensibility
FOX podium stuff is live and out there. here's a dedicated forum thread to the fork including @TEAMROBOT's reviews and podcast interviews with Jordi Cortes, Ariel Lindsley and Neko Mulally about its development
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/fox-podium-inverted-mtb-fork-questi…;
Hey y'all, came here to say the same thing. Wanted to let the inverted fork nerds know that I'm on the new Fox Podium and it's excellent. Blew me away, actually.
There is some magic there, innit?
Yes, I did get the 9.1 fork back from PUSH and promptly took both forks to Angel Fire for 3 days. I have lots of data and info on them and am in the process of putting it all together in a post or two.
To address some other things that have come up recently;
@TEAMROBOT @sspomer If you guys at Vital MTB really want to test product, you should have someone not affiliated with Vital purchase it. This is the only way you can be sure you get product similar to what the true consumer does. I worked at Specialized for quite a while and I know very well what happens to any product that goes to media or VIP or for a new product launch. It gets torn down and gone through to make it as perfect as possible. NOT what happens when a consumer buys "off the shelf".
Having said that, the 9.1 has gone back to PUSH after I checked the bushing fit and found it to be sub par. PUSH reached out after seeing the video and I agreed to send the fork back to them. They ended up doing quite a bit to it, so it is not really as purchased anymore.
The point of this thread is to provide an unbiased review of modern inverted forks. I paid retail for all products and have zero affiliation with any of the companies.
My background:
I have worked in the bike industry as a machinist/quasi-engineer for the vast majority of my career. Starting as a production tech at Mountain Cycle in San Luis Obispo, to running the Advanced R&D machine shop at Specialized for almost a decade, setting up and running a prototype machine shop at Praxis Works, and even a few years at Diaz Suspension Design servicing/tuning/modifying/repairing hundreds of forks and shocks. I am technically adept and well versed in product development and testing. I was lucky to be at Specialized when they still had in house suspension products, and played a role in the testing and development. Mostly I got to bug some industry legends like Mike McAdrews, Brian Lampman, Anthony Trujillo and Fern Hernandez with all my questions. During my time at Specialized, I built a deep appreciation and knowledge of suspension design and function. Skunk Works Suspension was eventually born from that.
I'm now one of the "old guys", but raced for many years and still try to ride/race at a high level. My first race was DH at Fontana in '98 or '99 with some guy named Palmer in attendance. That started the obsession with going fast on a mountain bike. I eventually raced at the pro level in Enduro and XC, expert in DH, went to a few collegiate mtb nationals, and even won a few races here and there.
That is what is behind any product review from Skunk Works Suspension. No BS, marketing, or influencing.
Are you familiar with Gamers Nexus? That should be the standard for how online reviews should be conducted in my opinion.
@Skunk Works Suspension I'm looking forward to your post on the Intend vs Push 9.1 test. Thank you. I've already been following the “Coil Sock Shootout” with great interest!
Do you also have a direct comparison to an EXT Era? I switched from the Fox 38 Trip 2 VCC to the EXT Era V 2.1 at the beginning of the year and have to say that I like it better in the following respects: higher travel, small bump compliance, better damping, especially at high speeds and on rough tracks. Rode some PR´s since then. However, I still have problems with the fact that both forks are quite tiring/hard to ride in longer and rough downhills. This leads to serious arm pump. What many describe as the outstanding feature of the Intend is that it is much easier to ride with less effort, something that would be very important to me if I were to invest in a new fork again....
How long before EXT join the single crown USD party ? Might need the legs slimming down a bit!
https://stablead.com/products/front-suspension?variant=46721041694907
Can someone explain to me why the bushings on a 170 USD can be further apart compared to a 170 RSU fork? Also, why not put the air valve in the leg of the no disk side?
from ChatGPT
Bushings are internal components that guide the sliding movement of the fork stanchions inside the outer legs (or vice versa), helping to maintain alignment and reduce stiction.
In an RSU fork (traditional fork):
The stanchions are at the top (attached to the crown/steerer).
The lowers (sliders) are at the bottom and contain the bushings.
Because the lowers need to accommodate the front axle and brake mounts, there's limited vertical room in them.
So, bushings are often closer together in RSU forks.
In a USD fork:
The stanchions are at the bottom (connected to the axle).
The sliders (or uppers) are larger diameter tubes that slide up and down over the stanchions.
The upper tubes are longer and not constrained by axle or brake mount positions.
Therefore, there’s more freedom to space bushings further apart.
Just make sure to dial back the self righteous tone they have - apparently their methodology and testing is pretty solid, I just find Steve pretty punishing to listen too
Very self righteous, but hey, if you're the nerd equivalent of the lead singer of quiet riot, maybe you can be like that in the nerdosphere.
The Intend Edge (Originals Edition)
The folks at Intend have a sense of humor, and the fork actually shipped with a roll of genuine German TP. Truly reusable packing material.
Specifications (A full spec chart is on the first post of this thread, it will be updated as new information is released)
150mm-180mm travel, 35mm stanchions, bushing overlap 160mm, air spring, 15mm axle, weight 2210g,
Chassis
Aluminum uppers that taper from an OD of 44.5mm to 42.5mm just below the Intend logo, large hollow aluminum crown, heavy duty steerer tube with a 2.75mm wall thickness (a typical fork steerer is 1.75mm), the dropouts are pressed onto the legs with a single M8 pinch bolt on each side, the axle is 15mm and bottoms out on the dropout to squeeze both legs onto the hub (like most RockShox forks).
Bushing fit and chassis alignment were perfect from day one, and remain excellent after a full riding season. The video showing chassis alignment with a wheel bolted in the drop outs was accidentally erased, but it was perfect as well.
Spring
The Intend air spring is like the Manitou style where the positive and negative air chambers are equalized when the shock pump is attached, it does not have an equalization dimple that the air piston travels across. This design has both pros and cons; Pro in that you can set the positive/negative chamber equalization point in order to get more or less negative spring force. If the fork is pushed into the travel by 10mm with the pump attached, it will have a stronger negative spring effect and feel more soft and supple off the top. With the fork fully extended and off the ground when the pump attached, it will have the minimal negative spring effect and can top out slightly and feel more like a coil spring. Con is that after time it seems the balance between the two chambers can change and the fork can start topping out when it was not before.
The air spring is unique in that the travel can be adjusted in 1mm increments without taking the fork apart. Attach a shock pump, and remove the wheel/caliper/axle so the lower leg can be rotated. Each CCW rotation will add 1mm to the travel from 150mm to 180mm. I have run the fork at 176mm to get a specific static head angle, used it at 150mm on a smaller bike, and currently it is set to 170mm for comparison with the PUSH 9.1 fork.
The fork comes with three different caps to adjust the positive spring volume, and a 2nd high pressure air chamber (like Manitou IRT, Ohlins, Diaz Designs RUNT, etc) is available for further tuning the air spring.
Damper
The Edge uses a sealed damper with a rubber bladder and offers rebound and LSC adjustment. It is mounted upside down so the damper rod is attached to the crown and the compression assembly is at the bottom. It has fully shimmed rebound and compression assemblies and is very easy to tune. The compression assembly can be accessed and tuned without bleeding the entire damper; remove the assembly from the leg, change the tune, top the leg off with oil and reinstall the compression assembly.
I found the rebound stack to be too stiff (running it nearly wide open and it still felt slow at times), and the compression to be a bit soft (running it at 2-3 clicks from closed). I changed both shim stacks in order to be more in the middle of the adjustment range and it is an improvement. This seems to be a common complaint from other Intend users, rebound too slow and compression too soft (with the current Optimized tune).
Certification/Testing
All Intend forks are tested by EFBE Pruftechnik in Germany and certified to the E-Gravity standard.
Ride Dynamics
The Edge fork is extremely supple, it is the most sensitive fork (coil or sir) that I have ever owned or used. In terms of overall ride, calm and comfortable are the words that usually come to mind. The is an abundance of rocky terrain where I live and this fork simply holds a line and tracks where it is pointed. In comparison to a non-inverted fork, the Edge tends to not get hung up or deflected as much in rough terrain. I have found this to be a common trait with modern inverted single crown forks, they seem flex in way that is quite beneficial when riding rough and rocky terrain. Never was there a vague or wandering feeling, just very little jarring or deflecting force through the grips. This held true at bike park trails and speeds as well. I did many runs on World Cup/Pepper Spray at Angel Fire and the fork was great (after adding some air pressure and compression damping). If you have ridden those trails, you know what they can do to your hands.
The one area where this fork (and inverted designs in general) may show weakness and undesirable flex is on high speed smooth bike park trails with bigger jumps and berms. I was hoping to test at Purgatory Resort as it is 30 minutes from home and I know the trails there very well. I was planning back to back testing with a 35mm Boxxer to see if I could feel any detrimental flex with the inverted designs. Unfortunately Purgatory Bike Park is closed this season for lift construction, but I was able to get 3 full days in at Angel Fire where I took the Boxxer (running at 190mm) to compare. I was pretty blown away by the performance of the inverted forks when ridden back to back with the Boxxer. Both the Intend Edge and PUSH 9.1 were much more comfortable in the rocky chunk than the Boxxer was. In the smoother fast trails there was no real difference, but they were not my "home trails". This one will remain open for debate.
Thoughts/Issues/Misc
German engineering is evident with the Edge fork; low weight, low friction, simple and well thought out construction. It's easy to disassemble requiring a few allen wrenches and a 10mm socket to drop the legs.
No issues encountered over a full season of riding apart from the fork topping out occasionally which is remedied by attaching a shock pump and resetting the pressures between positive and negative chambers. In terms of features lacking; air bleeders and a floating axle would be nice (although there are no issues with chassis alignment with this fork).
Stock bath oil is 15ml per leg of a 50/50 blend of Motorex Supergliss 32k and 68k.
@Skunk Works Suspension can you please share your factory and customized shim stacks? As revealed in the discussion on the beer-less site, Intend keeps updating the stacks as a response to customer feedback. Also, thank you for the note about the air spring equalization, I was wondering about that. My Essential was sent with the Travelizer stanchion caps, giving me the option of "XXL air spring volume". I am planning to try a few different equalization strategies with the most linear cap. Awesome write-up!
Intend Edge Optimized Damper Tune (stock)
Compression = 14x.1, 13x.1, 12x.1, 8x.3 (clamp)
Rebound = 14x.15, 13x.15, 12x.15, 8x.3 (clamp), 9x.5 (spacer)
I believe stock damper fill is Motorex 4wt (16 CST), but it could also be Motorex 2.5wt (14.5 CST).
SWS R1 Damper Tune
R1 comp = 14x.1(qty2), 13x.12, 12x.1, 11x.1, 8x.3 (clamp)
R1 reb = 14x.15, 13x.1, 11x.1(qty2), 8x.3(qty3, clamp)
Oil is Maxima Racing Fork 5wt (16.2 CST).
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